Tire Rack Speaks on 14F Temp Issue - LotusTalk

klingk · 07-31-2007, 01:16 PM

I just got a reply from the Tire Rack about the OE A048 tires.

Quote:

I apologize for the delay in responding to your question. We have been
waiting for clarification from Yokohama in order to answer your
question.

The 14 degree F temperature threshold for storage applies to the
Lotus-OE version of the ADVAN Neova AD07.

And more specifically, the warning applies to tires that have the
vehicle's weight resting on them, and/or the vehicle moves on the tires.
The deflection when this cold may/will cause compound cracking. Tires in
warehouse storage, or without any vehicle weight on them will not be
effected by the cold temperature.

If the garage temperature does not drop below 14 degrees F, then no
worries. But if the temps inside the garage, and more specifically the
temp of the tire drops below 14 degrees F, then the vehicle should be
stored on jack stands or the tires and wheels removed from the vehicle.

I hope you will find this information helpful.

I don't know if that puts the issue to rest, or causes more questions, just thought I would spread the word.

I also just noticed that they specifically mentioned the AD07's not that A048's, I'll have to ask them about that.

Looks like jackstands for me, or 4 cheap jacks and 4 hockey pucks, which reminds me I need to read the manual on jacking procedures.....

Let the debate begin

cpforyou · 07-31-2007, 01:17 PM

Okay, so if we have to put cars on jack stands for a long period of time, do we now have to worry about a drooping suspension...

TimMullen · 07-31-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpforyou

Okay, so if we have to put cars on jack stands for a long period of time, do we now have to worry about a drooping suspension...

Yep. Drooping suspension may save your tires, but at the cost of your suspension bushings. How bad?

But I can tell you that I had a Lotus up on jackstands during a restoration. Perfectly good suspension bushings, but after sitting on jackstands for about 3 years, something like 5 of the 8 front suspension A-arm bushings had failed by the time I got to rebuilding the suspension.

It is hard on the bushings. How long will it take to damage them? It depends...

I'd either leave the tires on the ground (I do, but I doubt that my garage has dropped below 20 around here), get cheap tires to store the car on, or as a worst case, support the car off the ground with jacks stands under the outboard ends of the suspension to maintain normal "droop" - but that may not be good on the A-arms depending on how and where you place jackstands...

glb · 07-31-2007, 04:06 PM

This is not what the Yoko engineer told me. He said the tires shouldn't be exposed to those temps under any circumstance; on or off car.

I bought winter tires anyway, as 048s have little grip in v cold temps.

BR111 · 07-31-2007, 05:14 PM

This sounds like a lot of fun for people in the Northern Lattitudes. I assume they are serious and expect the car to be raised(?). That's plain wierd for a modern day tire. But, it makes me happy I don't live in Chicago for the time being.

Vishus_1 · 07-31-2007, 05:52 PM

This is ridiculous - just to clarify - Yokohama is now saying that Avans can't support the weight of the car if the temperature drops beneath 14 degrees?

Come on - like it never gets to that temperature in England. And of course half this country can experience that during winter. What about Canada.

So if I don't do this, they are going to use that as the excuse why the tires could crack???

This is like some wierd Firestone/Ford Explorer nightmare for Lotus.

andykeck · 07-31-2007, 06:15 PM

That's interesting. I've never heard the 14 degree claim on regards to the Ad07s, only the AO48s. Its not shocking that the 48s would be subject to some limitations as you give up some real world livability when you go to R compound tires. Note that Hoosier and Toyo (I think) limit their r comes to no lower than 32.

Bruce · 07-31-2007, 06:29 PM

Well I'm looking at a sticker off of an A048 right now and it says "Caution never store or use below 14 F as this may damage tire and impede performance".

ewalberg · 07-31-2007, 06:34 PM

Not to be a stick in the mud, but a summer tire is just that. Expecting them to be of any use or expecting them not to have potentially serious issues below freezing is asking more than you may be able to. I'm not saying it would be "nice" if summer tires we not damaged by freezing temps, but in some places in the world, if your "summer" tires were damaged due to use in the winter they'd tell you you were dumb for running summer tires in the winter.

Should winter tire owners be pissed their winter tires wear out super fast if used all season? and can over heat in +100F weather? 95% of complaints for Ultra high performance tires on tire rack are for "pre-mature" wear... well you don't usually get something for nothing.

Again, i'm not saying this situation is unfortunate, or potentially exaggerated by the manufacturers, but it's not at all surprising to me, regardless.

On the other hand if they have too many failures they'll likely end up with a law suit and legislation for "warning" labels on R compound and Summer tires. Is it not remarkable that the A048's can be cycled out and poor traction with still plenty of tread? THat was a little shocking for me to read, since i'd never heard of it. Sounds downright dangerous for the average consumer.

Yeah, some cheap-p steel wheels and kmart tires might be wise regardless. My a048's had what appeared to be flat spots that took weeks to work out.... from when it was sitting on the lot to when i was daily driving it...

but wait, what about all the new lotus' sitting outside on the lots in the midwest during winter?... yeah, there's some thin ice here no matter what... no pun intended.

DreamCar · 07-31-2007, 06:36 PM

Stored my A048's on the car through the winter in Toronto, no problems this summer at all. In fact, I seem to be getting good mileage out of them.

Maybe the new trend will be "Cold Cycling"

10,000km road, 500 km track & 4 autocrosses & I'm just at the wear bars on the inside of the rears. This winter I'll take a tire temp during a cold snap to see how cold the garage floor really gets.

Keeper · 07-31-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamCar

Stored my A048's on the car through the winter in Toronto, no problems this summer at all.

Did you store the car outside?

milehitom · 07-31-2007, 07:53 PM

This past winter in Denver, it dropped down to minus 21 F. My garage is detached. I'd guess it dropped below 14 F in there...My AD07s showed no cracking or flat spotting. We had a freak winter cold snap: 30 days below 32 F daytime (it usually dropped to zero at night). It was a pretty good test of the tires' cold weather durability. I'm not too concerned about it. I will definitely concur that the ADA07s don't like cold weather when cornering. I forgot it was 9 F out one morning and slid around a corner like I was on ice cubes

Tom

Vishus_1 · 07-31-2007, 08:56 PM

I guess I can understand if there was a warning about not driving them in 14 degree or colder conditions but just having them on the car - parked - is a problem??? This really doesn't sound safe. If I store my car in the garage during the winter - without sitting the car on jackstands - then I have to be worried when spring rolls around the tires could explode or worse???

And ewalberg is right - there are dealerships here in the midwest that leave these cars outside all winter - heck they leave them outside all year.

No if this is true - that these tires can be compromised by just sitting on a car, parked that is exposed to temperatures of 14 degrees or colder - then I smell a class action lawsuit coming.

I don't see this in the owners manual and I was never warned of this.

andykeck · 07-31-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishus_1

I don't see this in the owners manual and I was never warned of this.

The manual does suggest changing tires if the temps are going to be below 15f. And I can't verify it (don't have the AO48s), but searching here indicates the 14 degree warning is stamped into the sidewalls of the 48s.

S2Lola · 08-01-2007, 08:16 AM

Lads,

My Elise sat on its tires all winter in Toronto (unheated garage), and good golly the tires are still round!

However, cracking is an issue on some ultra high performance tires. For example, Goodyear road racing tires can be particularly susceptible to this, whereby the tread section appears to de-laminate from where it wraps around the side of the sidewall.

I don't know if that's what Yoko is getting at, but this problem has become so bad on GY race tires that at the end of last season I stopped using them and changed brands. I suspect that, given manufacturing cycles and travel, some of these race tires could have been frozen/unfrozen half a dozen times. Ironically, my GY distributor never used to have these issues - his warehouse was unheated and everything was below freezing. It only seems to have manifested itself in recent years.

Cheers,
Bill

NSR · 08-01-2007, 08:44 AM

I leave my Elise in storage for extended periods of time and soon it will be in cold/freezing temps too. I was wondering if there is a product that can be mounted on the hub instead of the tire like the Intercomp scale in the picture. Maybe someone with connection to a machine shop could fabricate something simple/cheap, I'd be willing to buy one.

NSR · 08-01-2007, 09:54 PM

Man, I guess my input killed this thread!
I thought my idea was a good one. Instead of buying an extra set of tires and wheels to put on during the winter to prevent flat spotting and cold temp damage, I'd rather have 4 objects that are only a fourth the size of regular tire/wheel combo for easier storage when not needed. Also by attaching to the hub using the lug bolts, the suspension will be stored compressed. Maybe can make them with caster wheels so one could push the car into a corner for more room in the garage... or maybe it's a silly idea.

Keeper · 08-01-2007, 10:32 PM

Not silly. The product is out there. Something like this, see 4 pics down.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40876

wildwhl · 08-01-2007, 10:57 PM

Just a thought. I'm sure there are many machine shops and/or waterjet shops in your area. All you need is the bolt pattern and the dimensions and you're set. Shouldn't run too much, I wouldn't think. Use 1/4" plate, and weld a base to it if you see fit (likely not necessary).

Of course, I'm just guessing here. I've had quite a bit of material cnc milled before and the prices always seem fair to me.

Also - they could be somewhat crude and still be totally functional without doing any damage to suspension (aka waterjet)

WW

NSR · 08-02-2007, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the feedback, that picture was exactly what I had in mind.
Being a lazy person, I was hoping someone already had it for sale.

07-31-2007, 01:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
cpforyou Rollin' On Gold! Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,387	Okay, so if we have to put cars on jack stands for a long period of time, do we now have to worry about a drooping suspension... __________________ __________________ 2006 Lotus Elise AW

07-31-2007, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
glb Unattractive Nuisance Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chester, NJ Posts: 4,530	This is not what the Yoko engineer told me. He said the tires shouldn't be exposed to those temps under any circumstance; on or off car. I bought winter tires anyway, as 048s have little grip in v cold temps. __________________ 05 elise (PES chip, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID low beams); 05 Corolla XRS; 72 Elan Sprint, 170 hp (Sold) "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable." G. Orwell. 6. "A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company." - Gian Vincenzo Gravina

07-31-2007, 06:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bruce Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,579	Well I'm looking at a sticker off of an A048 right now and it says "Caution never store or use below 14 F as this may damage tire and impede performance". __________________ '05 Storm Titanium / Red Touring / Hardtop / Stage 1 / Exige Wheels / Ohlins / RTD Brace / Traqmate

08-01-2007, 08:16 AM	#15 (permalink)
S2Lola Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 31	Tire Cracking Lads, My Elise sat on its tires all winter in Toronto (unheated garage), and good golly the tires are still round! However, cracking is an issue on some ultra high performance tires. For example, Goodyear road racing tires can be particularly susceptible to this, whereby the tread section appears to de-laminate from where it wraps around the side of the sidewall. I don't know if that's what Yoko is getting at, but this problem has become so bad on GY race tires that at the end of last season I stopped using them and changed brands. I suspect that, given manufacturing cycles and travel, some of these race tires could have been frozen/unfrozen half a dozen times. Ironically, my GY distributor never used to have these issues - his warehouse was unheated and everything was below freezing. It only seems to have manifested itself in recent years. Cheers, Bill

08-01-2007, 08:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
NSR Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 165	I leave my Elise in storage for extended periods of time and soon it will be in cold/freezing temps too. I was wondering if there is a product that can be mounted on the hub instead of the tire like the Intercomp scale in the picture. Maybe someone with connection to a machine shop could fabricate something simple/cheap, I'd be willing to buy one. Attached Images

07-31-2007, 05:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
BR111 Steve K. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 117	This sounds like a lot of fun for people in the Northern Lattitudes. I assume they are serious and expect the car to be raised(?). That's plain wierd for a modern day tire. But, it makes me happy I don't live in Chicago for the time being.

07-31-2007, 05:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Vishus_1 Super charged! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,038 Images: 62	This is ridiculous - just to clarify - Yokohama is now saying that Avans can't support the weight of the car if the temperature drops beneath 14 degrees? Come on - like it never gets to that temperature in England. And of course half this country can experience that during winter. What about Canada. So if I don't do this, they are going to use that as the excuse why the tires could crack??? This is like some wierd Firestone/Ford Explorer nightmare for Lotus.

07-31-2007, 06:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
andykeck Meow talk lotus one day? Join Date: May 2003 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,929 Images: 1	That's interesting. I've never heard the 14 degree claim on regards to the Ad07s, only the AO48s. Its not shocking that the 48s would be subject to some limitations as you give up some real world livability when you go to R compound tires. Note that Hoosier and Toyo (I think) limit their r comes to no lower than 32.

07-31-2007, 06:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
ewalberg Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Redwood City, CA Posts: 717	Not to be a stick in the mud, but a summer tire is just that. Expecting them to be of any use or expecting them not to have potentially serious issues below freezing is asking more than you may be able to. I'm not saying it would be "nice" if summer tires we not damaged by freezing temps, but in some places in the world, if your "summer" tires were damaged due to use in the winter they'd tell you you were dumb for running summer tires in the winter. Should winter tire owners be pissed their winter tires wear out super fast if used all season? and can over heat in +100F weather? 95% of complaints for Ultra high performance tires on tire rack are for "pre-mature" wear... well you don't usually get something for nothing. Again, i'm not saying this situation is unfortunate, or potentially exaggerated by the manufacturers, but it's not at all surprising to me, regardless. On the other hand if they have too many failures they'll likely end up with a law suit and legislation for "warning" labels on R compound and Summer tires. Is it not remarkable that the A048's can be cycled out and poor traction with still plenty of tread? THat was a little shocking for me to read, since i'd never heard of it. Sounds downright dangerous for the average consumer. Yeah, some cheap-p steel wheels and kmart tires might be wise regardless. My a048's had what appeared to be flat spots that took weeks to work out.... from when it was sitting on the lot to when i was daily driving it... but wait, what about all the new lotus' sitting outside on the lots in the midwest during winter?... yeah, there's some thin ice here no matter what... no pun intended.

07-31-2007, 06:36 PM	#10 (permalink)
DreamCar Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 130	Stored my A048's on the car through the winter in Toronto, no problems this summer at all. In fact, I seem to be getting good mileage out of them. Maybe the new trend will be "Cold Cycling" 10,000km road, 500 km track & 4 autocrosses & I'm just at the wear bars on the inside of the rears. This winter I'll take a tire temp during a cold snap to see how cold the garage floor really gets.

07-31-2007, 07:53 PM	#12 (permalink)
milehitom Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 3,145	This past winter in Denver, it dropped down to minus 21 F. My garage is detached. I'd guess it dropped below 14 F in there...My AD07s showed no cracking or flat spotting. We had a freak winter cold snap: 30 days below 32 F daytime (it usually dropped to zero at night). It was a pretty good test of the tires' cold weather durability. I'm not too concerned about it. I will definitely concur that the ADA07s don't like cold weather when cornering. I forgot it was 9 F out one morning and slid around a corner like I was on ice cubes Tom

07-31-2007, 08:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
Vishus_1 Super charged! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,038 Images: 62	I guess I can understand if there was a warning about not driving them in 14 degree or colder conditions but just having them on the car - parked - is a problem??? This really doesn't sound safe. If I store my car in the garage during the winter - without sitting the car on jackstands - then I have to be worried when spring rolls around the tires could explode or worse??? And ewalberg is right - there are dealerships here in the midwest that leave these cars outside all winter - heck they leave them outside all year. No if this is true - that these tires can be compromised by just sitting on a car, parked that is exposed to temperatures of 14 degrees or colder - then I smell a class action lawsuit coming. I don't see this in the owners manual and I was never warned of this.

08-01-2007, 09:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
NSR Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 165	Man, I guess my input killed this thread! I thought my idea was a good one. Instead of buying an extra set of tires and wheels to put on during the winter to prevent flat spotting and cold temp damage, I'd rather have 4 objects that are only a fourth the size of regular tire/wheel combo for easier storage when not needed. Also by attaching to the hub using the lug bolts, the suspension will be stored compressed. Maybe can make them with caster wheels so one could push the car into a corner for more room in the garage... or maybe it's a silly idea.

08-01-2007, 10:32 PM	#18 (permalink)
Keeper Probably Lurking Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: North of Boston Posts: 2,288	Not silly. The product is out there. Something like this, see 4 pics down. http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40876 __________________ -Shawn (2005 Lotus Econoxotic) Uberpost -- things owners should know - common problems/fixes - rattles, squeaks, noises - read the manual - good ideas? - maintenance - mods - reference - abbreviations

08-01-2007, 10:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
wildwhl You bought a Locust? Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 782	Just a thought. I'm sure there are many machine shops and/or waterjet shops in your area. All you need is the bolt pattern and the dimensions and you're set. Shouldn't run too much, I wouldn't think. Use 1/4" plate, and weld a base to it if you see fit (likely not necessary). Of course, I'm just guessing here. I've had quite a bit of material cnc milled before and the prices always seem fair to me. Also - they could be somewhat crude and still be totally functional without doing any damage to suspension (aka waterjet) WW __________________ ...................... She's gone. Last edited by wildwhl : 08-01-2007 at 11:07 PM.

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08-02-2007, 06:42 AM	#20 (permalink)
NSR Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 165	Thanks for the feedback, that picture was exactly what I had in mind. Being a lazy person, I was hoping someone already had it for sale.