Warranty voided! Please follow the link

[Surferjer]

I did not want to recreate a thread, but did want to inform the general membership and readers of Elisetalk.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...t=22313&page=2

Post #31.

[codymac]

Wow - this really sucks.

Having been on the receiving end of FedEx's that politely state "knock it the eff off" from another manufacturer, I wish you the best of luck - sending all my good karma your way.

[fishguy]

I am confused how high rpm void the warranty for the tranny? engine .....well OK, i assume they will use this data to void ANY warranty issue on the car then.........?

[bluejae]

so we can't have fun with this car? wtf...

[lateapex]

The Elise has a rev limiter. Doesn't that mean that it limits the revs to a safe level? So, is Lotus, or that one guy in Atlanta, admitting that the rev limiter DOES NOT work?

If so, Lotus will be doomed in the USA because people won't buy a car from a company that doesn't honor the warranty.

[Surferjer]

The rev limiter of both of my cars allow revs to exceed 8500 ALL THE TIME. For Lotus to say anything over 8500 is bad is setting any owner who hits the lmiter up to warranty voiding. Clever trick to avoid taking responsibility for a flawed component (tranny).

[pla_time]

All this suggests that some adaptation of Arlo Guthrie's approach (from Alice's Restaurant) might work. If everybody who is currently considering buying an Elise from a dealer (there seem to be quite a few on EliseTalk) were to walk into the dealership and say

"I don't think I want to buy a car from a company that doesn't honor the warranty," and walk out

that might create a little buzz . . .

[hatchy]

This should be pretty easy to fight, you just need to commit to getting a lawyer. Unless they can show that the events logged by the ECU actually led to the damage, they can't void your warranty. You can also subpoena service records of all cars, and show that other drivers have done the same thing, and there was no damage to the tranny. Also, if you look at the ECU dump, it contains very little info--hardly enough for them to draw these types of conclusions.

Lastly, if these events were known to cause damage, they should have stated it in the manual *and* owe certain duty to safe-guarding the average owner from easily and accidently voiding their warranty, especically when it is merely a matter of adjusting the rev limiter.

These kind of tactics is one reason why I will *never* buy another Audi. They tried to pull the same ****.

[Surferjer]

Good to know on the Audi-we were considering buying an Q7. I'll scratch that and stick with the Lexis and Mercedes 4X4 models...thanks.

[keith86a]

Originally Posted by Surferjer

Good to know on the Audi-we were considering buying an Q7. I'll scratch that and stick with the Lexis and Mercedes 4X4 models...thanks.

Check out the RX400h. My mother recently bought it and its an awesome machine! Great mpg, ride, quality, and even performance (sub 7 sec 0-60). Not 1 problem yet (30k miles).

[JWA]

That sucks and I would definitely fight it. First thing I would do is call the highest guy at LCU that you can get in touch with and ask him to get involved. It sounds like you are willing to be reasonable, and that should help get them to work with you.

I wonder what Lotus's terms are with Toyota with regards to the powertrain warranty. I would assume that some portion of the warranty costs are transferred on to them for valid manufacturing defects.

[SouL]

How does your car rev past the 8500RPM rev limit? I understand that car lets you go past for brief periods... but a full 600 - 700 RPMs over?

[lateapex]

Right, if there is a rev limit at 8500 or so and Jer's car was at 9000+ it seems that the warranty should cover everything related to an ECU that let the engine rev that high. Sounds like the ECU is broken, by definition, if it let the engine go over 8500. The ECU is covered by the warranty after all, so how can they blame Jer for a broken ECU which in turn might mess up the engine or tranny?

Fight it.
As usual, we'll never hear from Lotus about this here on what is probably the largest (certainly the best) Elise forum on the planet.

Lotus, hello? Anybody there? Come out, come out wherever you are!

[doma]

wait - correct me if I'm wrong but a rev limiter causes the computer to throttle back the engine at the limit. It does NOT protect the engine from mechanically overreving due to a missed downshift. i.e., a 'zing'. For example, rev your engine to 8k in 3rd gear on the street then put it into second and pop the clutch on the shift - welcome to 10-11k rpm. I'm sure the rev limiter software will be choking the throttle just as bits of the engine/tranny come flying through the ECU (I wonder if parts from the engine/tranny would come through the firewall???)

[Stan]

Originally Posted by doma

wait - correct me if I'm wrong but a rev limiter causes the computer to throttle back the engine at the limit. It does NOT protect the engine from mechanically overreving due to a missed downshift. i.e., a 'zing'. For example, rev your engine to 8k in 3rd gear on the street then put it into second and pop the clutch on the shift - welcome to 10-11k rpm. I'm sure the rev limiter software will be choking the throttle just as bits of the engine/tranny come flying through the ECU (I wonder if parts from the engine/tranny would come through the firewall???)

Slightly zinging an engine does not normally harm or do a thing to the gearbox. Usually it is the motor that is at risk at such a time. If Jer's engine was zinged it sure was not by much and it is not 100% clear that it was or wasn't zinged. There are many instance of past 8500 RPMs being hit on a 1-2 shift for example. I have not heard of just past 9 though. But various folks have reported 8600-8800+ RPMs. And there were no warranty issues, concerns, or comments noted at the time.

As noted in the other thread, there are also things besides a blown 2nd gear syncho that can affect shift action into that gear. it can be a bit tricky to diagnose at times if subtle.

[JWA]

Right - a rev limiter can only protect against overreving due to spark and fuel, not due to mechanically overreving when missing a shift. That's why Jer said he's being so understanding about this - those revs would indicate missed shifts on his part.

I suppose that it is theoretically possible that a couple missed shifts could have slightly affected the second gear synchro, but it's a lot less likely than a lot of other causes. What I don't understand is why they would try to void the warranty on the tranny and not the entire drivetrain based on those supposed factors (not to give them any ideas).

[Stan]

Originally Posted by JWA

Right - a rev limited can only protect against overreving due to spark and fuel, not due to mechanically overreving when missing a shift. That's why Jer said he's being so understanding about this - those revs would indicate missed shifts on his part.

I suppose that it is theoretically possible that a couple missed shifts could have slightly affected the second gear synchro, but it's a lot less likely than a lot of other causes. What I don't understand is why they would try to void the warranty on the tranny and not the entire drivetrain based on those supposed factors (not to give them any ideas).

If you read the experiences of the same engine as used by other Toyota cars, you'll see that when they downshift overrev the synchros don't get creamed.

It seems that Lotus is saying to Jer "ooops you went 1 RPM past 8500 therefore the problem you asked about MUST have been caused by you so there is no warranty" Even though on upshifts the Lotus ECU seems to allow past 8500 RPMs, briefly. That would mean that nearly all Lotus Elises have voided theri warranty. Just hit the buh-buh-buh when trying to max out a given gear in order to land in the next gear on lift. Which this motor encourages you to do as the powerband is so narrow in RPMs.

[Surferjer]

My car's natural redline-according to the mechs at my dealer-is 8800. What that means is when I hit the buh buh buh it's bouncy to about that range on the upper end. There are two rev higher-both just over 9000. I don't know how or when it happened, but it did. I can accept that. What eats me up is this tranny, from mile 13 when I bought it, already had this synchro problem!!!! And I fail to see how a high rev ruined this synchro.

How many of you had a data dump and showed a top rev of more than 8500? Show of hands? Anyone gong to any kind of track event, or even driving on the street and bouncing off the limiter is most likely over the 8500 "limit".

One other note-the engine apparently can easily take a burst in the low nines. These engines in Toyotas do it all the time. Finally, my lump runs perfectly. It is stellar. So I did not appear to mess up the block.

I'll try Fisher again today. I may call an attorney as well.

[turbo2nr]

My second gear synchro is gone. I have never abused the car or taken to a track. I pretty much have to match up 2nd, and often double-declutch. If I was racing, going from 1st to 2nd would be a nighmare. It already is.

I'm sure of this. I have rebuilt many Manual trannys including my $10,000 dogbox with straight cut gears and no synchros. I will sell car before warranty runs out. Just like my past five Subarus. Just can't depend on long life. Sucks.

My passanger foot rest just came out today and was flopping around. How much super-glue and duct tape is really holding our cars together? Scary.

[Surferjer]

Well, they've already fixed a few. How many does it take for a class action lawsuit? Anyone? Lotus are you listening? This could get really, really ugly for you.