Review of Lotus Elise in today's (April 9,2004) Wall Street Journal Weekend section.

[nj1266]

Originally posted by trifecta99
NJ:

Do I smell a disinformation campaign to persuade deposit holders to curb their desire for a Liz?

You would have better luck soliciting members for their place in line, because you obviously have 'more appropriate' plans for an Elise in your possession.

Perhaps that is phase 2 of your posts?

Or you could wait quitely for 3 years or so for an opportunity to own this race car.

FYI: Touchy subjects do swirl with emotion and the Elise is an emotional car.

I hope you have an opportuntiy to own one some day.

LOL, no dude I have no ulterior motives. When I posted that sentence in my first post, I put a big smilie face after it.

If the car sells well and is in demand, then Lotus will make more of them. After all, Proton wants to make a profit on its investment in Lotus. If the car is not in demand, then there will be cars available for people to buy. Either way there will be Elise's available on the market 2-3 years from now w/o a mark-up and maybe under MSRP.

A lot of people buy cars and then regret it. This car might be different, but then again it might not. I read a lot of car boards and I am amazed at how many posters trade their cars in every two years. Those who bought the WRX two years ago are trading them in for the STI and the EVO, just as an example.

I am in no hurry to buy. I will wait and see how the reliability of the car pans out, whether there will be used cars or not. More importantly, I will wait so the excitment about the car dies down. Good things happen for those who wait.

[nj1266]

Originally posted by OneFastMiata
Im a 30 year old woman who daily drives a bevy of miatas with revalved koni's set to full stiff and springs that are much stiffer than what you described on your "race car".

I have 550lb springs up front and 275 rear on the miatas and my rx7, which I also drive to work etc has 650lb springs up front and 375 rear and has a full cage in it which makes it harder to get into and out of. The ride dont bother me, the cage doesnt bother me. Ive driven them for great distances on roadtrips and to races, again, doesnt bother me. The Elise may in fact be an "improvement" of sorts.

I dont think I'll be going out to dinner parties in the Elise because I dont see wearing a dress and this car going together, but so what. If the Elise were the only car I had, I'd just have to wear pantsuits. Oh well.

I think you're making broad generalizations about Elise owners that may not be correct. Even the "non enthusiast" who buys the car would have to be pretty dense to not have picked up on t he fact the car is stiffer than most by reading the multiple reviews. And should someone decide they cant take the ride and decide to sell I seriously doubt they'll be going on ebay for $30,000 any time soon as there are SCORES of people put there willing to give their first born to get their hands on one sooner.

Two points:

First, the car is stiffer now than it once was. 650 fr and 550 rear.
Second, you obviuosly have a second car to drive. My post was intended to those who want the Elise as their ONLY daily driver.

You would be amazed at how "dense" the average Joe/Jane are. Most of the people on this board know what they are doing, but most of the buyers will not be from this board. More than likely, they will buy implusively and then have regrets.

[Vantage]

Originally posted by nj1266
...on a vendetta...

The " " signifies that I'm joking around with you. LOL.

For the most part, cars are a liability and I think responsible buyers should know exactly what they are getting themselves into. They shouldn't turn the other way, when considering possible losses. I notice that you keep mentioning that you are waiting for the car in order to minimize these potential liabilities. While your brother may have been hit hard by his car's reliability, there are also people on this board that can afford to take the risk. There are plenty of first year cars that show decent reliability. I can name at least four off the top of my head that have been fine. Personally, I think that the 2zzge engine is pretty reliable by now, and the rest of the Elise chassis is fairly sorted. I'm anticipating lots of little problems, but nothing too major. And if there is, I won't be mad at myself.

- J

PS: I think the reason you have caused such a stir is the vigor in which you defend such a generalized viewpoint. Why continue belaboring a near axiom?

[jml1952]

Originally posted by _JD_
NJ-
Well personally I feel you come across as a "know it all". On your 23rd post (or close to it) you seem to be "lecturing" a group of obviously knowledgable and educated people on how they are doing things improperly for the most part, and on rare occasions they do things the way you do (i.e. correct). Naturally people don't like to be told by a "newbie" like yourself how and when to do things. By mentioning your Sentra "race car" in every other sentence does'nt lend to your credibility either.

In short, your posts are annoying and condescending. The topper is that you act oblivious to the fact that your style of prose elicits this type of response from the board. For the most part, people don't like to hear from "know it all's"- especially when it's obvious that they don't.

Precisely.

I've driven a Miata as a daily driver for 14 years, very close in size to the Elise and sharing many of the same potential drawbacks, without a problem.

I'm buying the car because I like the way it looks - definitely not the sole factor, but important to me.

I'm not planning to go near a track, but still anticipate enjoying the car tremendously. If Lotus expected this to be a track-only car it would be set up much differently- I expect that the majority of the customers will be non-tracking people.

I don't know who decreed that Chicago and Atlanta are the largest markets, but we have more dealerships in California than any other state and it appears to me that we will be the largest market. Many California buyers are getting their cars from out-of-state dealerships because of the huge demand here.

Certainly many Elise deposit holders are not participating on this forum, although there seem to be a large number of lurkers, so who knows. But this is not the only source of information - anyone who's been reading car magazines (or even the Wall Street Journal) or attending auto shows has been able to learn enough to evaluate the car's suitability for their needs.

[HoopyFrood]

Originally posted by jml1952

I don't know who decreed that Chicago and Atlanta are the largest markets, but we have more dealerships in California than any other state and it appears to me that we will be the largest market.

That's skewed - it was stated that the Chicago dealership and the Atlanta dealership were the highest volume Esprit dealers. They both also happen to be the sole dealership in a well-populated area with no competition for 250 miles. There is no doubt in my mind that if you added up all the California dealers and all of the Flordia dealers, those 2 states would both come out ahead of sales in Illinois/Wisconsin/Iowa/Indiana (Chicago) and Georgia/Alabama/South Carolina/North Carolina/Tennessee (Atlanta).

[HoopyFrood]

Originally posted by nj1266

I am not in a hurry to get an Elise. I will wait out the first and second year runs. If there are no used Elises, then I will buy new.

Unfortunately, if you're waiting out the first 2 years' run, you'll be looking at the first year run of the re-designed (bumper compliant) 2007 Elise. Then it's another 2 year wait for all the kinks to be worked out of that model, making the 2009 version your choice.

There will undoubtedly be used Elises for sale. And for every used Elise there will be a buyer. Whether it's at $50,000 or at $20,000 only the number of sellers and desire of buyers will determine.

I love the car, but I will not buy on the basis of emotions.

Then you have my deepest sympathy.

[Need4Speed]

Originally posted by nj1266
You would be amazed at how "dense" the average Joe/Jane are. Most of the people on this board know what they are doing, but most of the buyers will not be from this board.

Thanks for the news flash. You're preaching to the wrong choir.

Most of the 'early adopters' of this low volume car will have had months-years to research, and few illusions, before it's even possible to buy.

I suggest you frequent the Joe/Jane boards to grace them with your insight.

[Surferjer]

NJ-nice debate you started. I will look for chain and snow tires and drive this every day. But if it DOES suck in the 4-5 snow storms/year we seem to get here in eastern PA, then I'll jump into myMitsu Spyder.

Also, I do not believe this car will be an "impulse" purchase. "Impulse" purchases by definition are unplanned emotional purchases. You can't get one of these (for at least two years) without planning ahead!

I drove a Fiat 850 Spider roadster for a couple of years as a daily driver, and LOVED it. I had to carry a full set of tools, and it broke a lot, but i still loved it. It is in my mind one of the cutest and smallest cars I've ever seen. I can't wait to get into my modern 850 Spider with better handling and a reliable much faster Toyota powerplant (the "850" in the 850 Spider stood for a 847cc engine LOL).

Six weeks!!!!

[etypeiii]

Originally posted by Derek
That's right remember it doesn't rain much in England

Well, you certainly have a point, but England also gave us old Jaguars. Which are rather deficient in defogging, windshield wiping, and moisture proofing. And the Jags were probably among the better engineered cars regarding these aspects. So forgive me if I have concerns around this.

Also, my understanding is that there are not as many massive SUV's and other huge cars in England. Is it accurate to say English drivers aren't eating rain-spray as often from the likes of a Hummer H2 or a Escalade? It seems to me the percentage of SUV sized vehicles in England is much less than in the U.S. It would almost like driving a normal sedan in the U.S., surrounded by semis.

One thing maybe that should be noted is that Europe is a lot friendlier to small cars. Very small size is actually an asset in many cases for daily use. That's not the case in the United States.

Finally, I was also under the impression the rain in England is more like a continuous drizzle rather than massive downpours... somewhat like the Seattle, WA area actually.

Anyway, I'll try it, my thoughts are merely speculation. But I'm prepared for the worst. I don't like commuting on motorcycles in the rain either (touring/open road OK, daily errands no.) Visibility is actually better on a bike too, your head is higher up and there are no windows to fog up (if your helmet is properly prepared.)





DLY

[cherie]

Originally posted by nj1266
First, A 15-30 minute test drive is NOT like owning a car and driving it on a daily basis. It gets tiring after a while. I should know since my daily driver (1998 SE-R in my signature) became the race car. The more I modified the car, the harder it became to live with. When I stripped the car, and the Elise is almost stripped, the noise levels became annoying. When I put a roll cage in the car, the car became stiffer and harder to get in and out of. When it came to smog the car, I did not bother and took it off the streets. It is very hard to live with uncompromising cars like the Elise. That is why I love the Elise, it makes no compromises.

Second, The biggest two markets for the Elise are Chicago and Atlanta, not CA. How are the owners going to live with the Elise as their only car in such winter weather is beyond me? As I said before, if you have a second car, then you should have no problem.

Third, Most of the buyers of this car are NOT on this board. There are 2,200 cars coming the first year. How many of them are going to be owned by members of this board? Most of the buyers will have little knowledge of what they are getting into. And the dealer sales people are only interested in selling the car. They will not warn about the noise, the ride, and the lack of space getting old after the newness wears off. Most of the buyers will not even take the car to the track where it belongs. Voiding the warranty will be an issue for them.

Fourth, we have a Toyota MR2 and my gf would not have bought it had I not had a truck and a regular daily driver. She does not take it to the track (even though I want to ) and bought it because it is COOL. She has my truck and car to fall back on when she needs to run big errands. I love the MR2 a lot. I think it is a great car, but it is not a PRIMARY car. The same applies to the Elise.

NJ,
You are wrong that most of the Elise buyers are not on this board. Most of us just lurk like myself and laugh off comments like yours. I prefer to just read posts than respond (it makes the wait more painful), but I just had a few beers.

We all know the real reason you aren't getting one yet...you can't.

As a 3rd time female Miata owner, the main thing that drew me to the Elise was that I wanted a chance at something superior to the Miata in a logic, balance, beauty and emotion. I have had my eye on the Elise for over three years, and my money down for well over one.

I appreciate the feel and connection of a car to the road, and the sensation that I become one with the car. I had yet to experience that feeling in any car other than the Miata until I drove the Elise. All other cars are simply to get from A to B, or have a function (a truck for hauling or a minivan for families). Like everyone else here on the board, I drive better than all the other idiots on the road, so I might as well prove it and have fun.

I thought it was hard explaining what I find so practical about the Miata. Average Joe doesn't get it, and neither does his wife or girlfriend. They have fun doing other things I guess, like pumping gas into their SUV that is shinier than their neighbor's. The 15 minutes that I was able to test drive the Elise 111s last year was the most fun I have ever had driving a car. I simply can't stand the wait anymore, but I have my Miata in the meantime.

I snub my nose at almost every other car, including your Sentra's (my first car and only regret). Luckily you get to drive your GF's real car. I hope she drives with the revs high and the top off.

I am keeping my Miata as my second car..but only because I can't part with it and would miss it terribly. I could get something MORE practical, but the Miata is practical enough for me.

I am, quite simply, the biggest car snob you will ever meet.

Enjoy the drive to work in your Tundra tomorrow...I will have the top down and a smile.


PS..Note to self, call DMV tomorrow and see if CARSNOB is available as a vanity plate.

[Randy Chase]

That... is going to leave a mark.

Great post.

[Lotus F1]

Wow! That's My kinda Gal !

[Bill Swizz]

The Elise is perfectly good as a daily driver, I have had mine since late 96 and only use another car when I have to transport my kids. To answer a few of the points raised:

Ride comfort - dealing with bumps etc) This is surprisingly good, certainly as good as most European cars like VW golfs. There is a bit more noise from the suspension due to the lack of sound insulation but the road surface bumps are not transmitted through to the driver as any discomfort.

Seat Comfort - How you feel after a 5 hour drive) Early cars had much less padding than later cars, mine is an early one and after a 5 hour drive my bum is numb but a 1 hour drive is fine. Later cars are better but not perfect for long drives.

Luggage space) This is worse than most cars but you soon learn to live with it. I carry skis and full ski kit (boots etc.) for a weeks skiing for two people in mine with no problems.

Getting in and out) This is initially difficult but it only takes a few days to become totally natural and you don't think about it at all after that until you take a passenger for their first ride and see the entertainment of them struggling. Passengers with short skirts are the best

Noise) This is one area the elise falls down. Up to 80mph the noise is not too bad after that the wnid noise increases a lot. For long trips across Europe at 100mph+ I wear earplugs.

Snow) I live in Switzerland where we have our fair share of snow and I use snow tyres and chains and have only once failed to finish my journey and that was due to a freak snowstorm in the autumn when I was on R compound tyres and did not have my chains with me.

Rain) The hoods often leak, careful fitment usually deals with this. Visibility is no worse than any other car, just make sure the wiper blade is in good condition. Yes you are lower but you soon learn to not drive inches from the rear bumper of the car in front so the spray is not so bad.

Running costs) The running costs are lower than many cars and certainly not excessive and the only thing that is high is the insurance which is about twice what I would pay on another car of the same value.

I have no plans to sell my car, it is upgraded for track use with 400f/475r springs and Nitron dampers as well as a Honda engine with 230bhp+ but I still use it every day for long journeys back to the UK and also around Switzerland.

Some people do get rid of their elises quickly, however the majority of owners in the UK seem to get an elise and keep it as a the moment there is no car available that does everything the elise does as well as it does.

cheers

Bill

[frayed]

Nice post Bill.

So, how are those Nitrons/springs/Honda motor on the track? I bet it'll run with just about anything.

[babak]

Originally posted by Bill Swizz

Seat Comfort - How you feel after a 5 hour drive) Early cars had much less padding than later cars, mine is an early one and after a 5 hour drive my bum is numb but a 1 hour drive is fine. Later cars are better but not perfect for long drives.

I can't be any worse than stock seats on a ducati or how my hind quarter feels like after 700-1000 mile days (even on a Corbin Saddle.) Nice post.

[Bill Swizz]

Originally posted by frayed
Nice post Bill.

So, how are those Nitrons/springs/Honda motor on the track? I bet it'll run with just about anything.

I've not yet met anything that is noticeably faster than me on the straights, though things like Radicals leave me for dead on the bends.

So far I have found it no problem keeping up with Porsche GT2 or GT3 (not sure which) Ferrari 360s and Lambourghini Gallardo's on the straights and then the type R Yokohama A038 rubber and Nitrons I use gives a big advantage in corners and under braking.
The best thing is that the cars that are faster are also cars that need to be trailered to the track and are often not road legal and certainly are not used as daily drivers how my car is.
The video of the Elise at Le Mans (discussed in another thread) is probably a similar suspension and tyre set up to mine but he only has 170bhp which gives an idea of the speeds Elises can manage when the suspension is track sorted.

Now I just need to improve the driver to keep up with the car

[Surferjer]

Nice and informative posts, Bill. We thank you. I wonder how much I'll set myself back to get snow tires. And because this is a new or different tire size, I wonder if the S3s (federalized) will have snow tires available???

6 weeks...

[nj1266]

"The Elise is perfectly good as a daily driver, I have had mine since late 96 and only use another car when I have to transport my kids."

You have just answered the question. You have a second car to drive your kids in. If you had kids and you had to buy ONE car, would it be the Elise, MR2, Miata, S2000? I bet you would not buy any of these.

An overwhelming majority of people on this board own a second car/truck/suv. When need be they will use the second car to haul stuff, drive the kids, go out with more than one person.

[nj1266]

Originally posted by cherie
[b]NJ,
You are wrong that most of the Elise buyers are not on this board. Most of us just lurk like myself and laugh off comments like yours. I prefer to just read posts than respond (it makes the wait more painful), but I just had a few beers.

You are wrong. Go to the member list and you will only find 3 pages under members. assuming that each page contains 30 member, that will give you 300 members. Most people who buy this car will not belong to this board. Sorry.

We all know the real reason you aren't getting one yet...you can't.

How do you know what I can afford? 30% of my income per year is spent on cars. I assure you, I can afford to buy this car. Main reason I am waiting is I do not buy cars in their first year of arrival in the US. I know the Elise has been in production for a long time, but I will wait the first year out. Second reason I will not buy is the possible markup by dealers.

As a 3rd time female Miata owner, the main thing that drew me to the Elise was that I wanted a chance at something superior to the Miata in a logic, balance, beauty and emotion. I have had my eye on the Elise for over three years, and my money down for well over one.

Good for you, may you wear it well with many happy miles. The point of the debate is not how great the Elise is, but whether it will work as the ONLY daily driver that you have. Review after review have pointed that this car is more a second car than a primary mode of transport.

I snub my nose at almost every other car, including your Sentra's (my first car and only regret). Luckily you get to drive your GF's real car. I hope she drives with the revs high and the top off.

Since you say that you are such a great driver and a snob to boot, how about some friendly track competition. My race Sentra against your Elise. I hope you live in CA. Care to meet me at any race course of your choice?

I am keeping my Miata as my second car..but only because I can't part with it and would miss it terribly. I could get something MORE practical, but the Miata is practical enough for me.

Thank you for proving my point. The Miata is more practical than the Elise. It has a real trunk, the top is easy to remove and put bakc on again, it is easy to get in and out of and if the Elsie breaks down you have a second car to fall back on.

I am, quite simply, the biggest car snob you will ever meet.

What does that have to do with the debate about the Elise being the ONLY daily driver you will have?

Enjoy the drive to work in your Tundra tomorrow...I will have the top down and a smile.

I do not drive the Tundra to work, it is a tow truck for the track car.

[Randy Chase]

Originally posted by nj1266
You are wrong. Go to the member list and you will only find 3 pages under members. assuming that each page contains 30 member, that will give you 300 members. Most people who buy this car will not belong to this board. Sorry.

Two things... there are 36 pages, or over 1000 members.

Second, I think you missed her point. She was saying that there are a lot of "lurkers" or people that just read, often 2-3 times the registered posters. Many people stop by occasionally and read. Obviously not everyone on the list even uses the internet, but I would not be surprised to see a good percentage of people on the waiting list to have read the forum at least once.

P.S. There seems confusion by what people mean by daily driver. You keep saying it can't be someone's "daily driver." Other people reply that they will have no problem driving it daily. You then reply "but you have another car." You didn't start out saying the Elise is not a practical sole car for someone. You said it would not make a good daily driver.