Armstrong Doper?

[RENDERMAN]

Originally Posted by Vexige

So far no one mentioned, who're the people on the medical end of the story, those who made it happen... I'm sure he had the whole team of professionals on his payroll , who not just administered the drugs, but did what is the most important part of doping, make them disappear, removed, camouflaged. In order to oxygenate the blood, one has to have well equipped lab. These people did an "excellent" job, he was never caught.

That was going to be my next point, doctors, trainers, support personel are all at fault for not speaking out sooner, please don't tell me 20 people (what ever the number is, I don't know exactly) are doping and no one else on that team knew anything about it, Bull excrement!!

[RENDERMAN]

Originally Posted by SwingLo

Don't watch. Just go online afterwards to get the relevant highlights.

By watching it, you support Oprah.

I support OWN!!

[Elige]

Originally Posted by RENDERMAN

That was going to be my next point, doctors, trainers, support personel are all at fault for not speaking out sooner, please don't tell me 20 people (what ever the number is, I don't know exactly) are doping and no one else on that team knew anything about it, Bull excrement!!

From the little clips of the interview that I watched on youtube, I would wager to say that people were probably afraid to speak out. The people that tried to speak out were attacked by Armstrong, and he would try to ruin their lives. I dont't know much about Armstrong, other than that he won a $hit load of bike races and beat ball cancer. This was the first time I ever paid attention to him speaking. The guy sounds like a self centered monster.

[JWA]

This is pretty funny, but sadly correct: http://mashable.com/2013/01/20/lance...%28Mashable%29

[Davemk1]

This is interesting -

I've been in the bike biz for more than 30 years and raced for more than 15 and I spend a lot of time on the web on bike forums. In fact this forum is the only non-bike place I hang out.

I think if you were to post a poll on any of the cycling forums out there and ask if folks thought Lance doped I'll bet you'd get about 80% of the respondents saying that yes he did...............as opposed to the 11% here. I don't think I've ever seen a poll like this on a cycling forum............I think no one ever thought of asking as we all assumed that he was a cheat.

This makes me think that the casual observer of the sport felt that he was clean while the folks that follow it more closely mostly thought he was a doper. What is interesting to me is the difference between the two.

It will be interesting too to see where this goes from here. Most of the folks on the inside feel good that he fessed up but are really pissed and dissappointed as he left so much out and even lied about a bunch of stuff while talking with Oprah........provable and obvious lies. Why come semi-clean when you could come totally clean?

It ain't over yet.

Dave

[RENDERMAN]

Originally Posted by Davemk1

This is interesting -

I've been in the bike biz for more than 30 years and raced for more than 15 and I spend a lot of time on the web on bike forums. In fact this forum is the only non-bike place I hang out.

I think if you were to post a poll on any of the cycling forums out there and ask if folks thought Lance doped I'll bet you'd get about 80% of the respondents saying that yes he did...............as opposed to the 11% here. I don't think I've ever seen a poll like this on a cycling forum............I think no one ever thought of asking as we all assumed that he was a cheat.

This makes me think that the casual observer of the sport felt that he was clean while the folks that follow it more closely mostly thought he was a doper. What is interesting to me is the difference between the two.

It will be interesting too to see where this goes from here. Most of the folks on the inside feel good that he fessed up but are really pissed and dissappointed as he left so much out and even lied about a bunch of stuff while talking with Oprah........provable and obvious lies. Why come semi-clean when you could come totally clean?

It ain't over yet.

Dave

As an innocent bystandard I don't feel that bad anymore about getting Duped by a doper, the Waffle House anti doing agency really got duped for almost a decade and their business is to find out who the dopers were (not a riddle) for a while now we've been rearing about Hussain Bolt doping and no one been able to prove it, now I'm not sure he isn't...Pass some of that ganja man!!

[attila85]

Ever thought about how they all finish within seconds of each other?
They are all doping! So if the field is level, who's cheating?
Oh, someone burst all the ignorant fool's bubbles, I'm sorry, but it's a professional sport.
If it was my job to race and win I would do whatever the hell I could to make it happen, not only as an athlete but as supporting staff because I know the rest of the teams work the same way. When **** hits the fan all parties protect their investment in different ways of course, some just walk away, whoever is in the spotlight will lie and deny, the sponsors will just throw whoever is easiest under the bus and there you have it. It's pretty ugly but they make it look nice on TV.

He won 7 times in a row, you can't really take that away from him, no matter what you do.
The sport has gained more publicity and popularity because of him than ever before.

To me the most disappointing thing he did was to appear on that disgusting woman's show.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by SwingLo

Guy just seems like a grade a a$$hole. Seems as good a reason as any to dislike him.

yup - everyone pretty much agrees... as far as i can tell, lance himself would likely not disagree to much about that!

Originally Posted by JWA

Fitfan, I think the aspect that you don't seem to recognize is that the vast majority of the public has no interest in bicycle racing or who wins what and how their level of "augmentation" differs from others. Lance Armstrong's story was interesting (and sold) as a demonstration of human achievement. Of what is possible. That is the story that made him attractive to the public and therefore to sponsors, and it is now acknowledged that his story was a scam.

Hmmm... with all due respect, you are either clueless, or very regionally centric - cycling, and specifically the tour de france is the world largest sporting event in regards to public spectators, over 10 million a year attend the tour: compare that to the comparatively unheard of indy 500 at less than half a million.

just because you, or your friends, or the people in your area are not "into" the sport - your assertion about a lack of public interest or knowledge is not on target. or - you could say that about anything F1, golf, football, soccer, all of these sports "the vast majority of the public has no interest" the tour - is certainly at the top of the list in public interest world wide.

as to "the story" did you read my posts? that is exactly what i said - this was created by the media and lawyers. its not a scam... so you are right, i don't get that - the media is telling you its a scam and so you are eating that up. but its not - its the system at work. Schumacher was a scam then because he "cheated" to win his championships in F1.. its the same anywhere you break out the microscope. so explain the scam? he was "in competition" (which requires, in case you don't get it - that you deny doping, you can not admit ANY thing and remain in competition - cycling has a zero tolerance policy. if he ever said anything remotely "yes" he would have been banned right then and there), did what it took to remain in competition, tested clean by the rules of the sport (where others were doing more doping and testing positive and getting banned, he did not. his wins, as are legitimate in the context of the sport at the time).

Originally Posted by glb

Lance certainly has a lot of ball!

best ever! lol

Originally Posted by Vexige

So far no one mentioned, who're the people on the medical end of the story, those who made it happen... I'm sure he had the whole team of professionals on his payroll , who not just administered the drugs, but did what is the most important part of doping, make them disappear, removed, camouflaged. In order to oxygenate the blood, one has to have well equipped lab. These people did an "excellent" job, he was never caught.

no i have been discussing this - just most people are not getting it like you are! it is pretty easy to do, and decade long investigations here and there are not the answer...

Originally Posted by fitfan

not to say the end result is a bad thing. in fact an ever evolving process to a better and better environment. why i say a unilateral immunity window for all athletes to come forward. that would in effect rat out the entire system all at once, and set the stage for a big evolution in controls. my fear is what lance is doing will have no residual effect worth mentioning, and will all turn int something about 'him'

[RENDERMAN]

Originally Posted by glb

Lance certainly has a lot of ball!

Not exactly, my friend had his removed after testicular cancer

[JWA]

Originally Posted by fitfan

Hmmm... with all due respect, you are either clueless, or very regionally centric - cycling, and specifically the tour de france is the world largest sporting event in regards to public spectators, over 10 million a year attend the tour...

True, I was speaking of the US - which is where the majority of his sponsorship and fanbase was. In the US the Tour's TV coverage had a record year last year at an average of 409,000 viewers. The average NFL game has 17.5 million viewers in the US, and the average F1 race has just over one million, for comparison. 10 million Frenchmen might step outside of their homes to watch the bicyclists ride by, but that's not pertinent to my statement if I clarify the context as "the public in the U.S.".

Originally Posted by fitfan

...its not a scam... so you are right, i don't get that - the media is telling you its a scam and so you are eating that up. but its not - its the system at work.

Do you agree that Lance Armstrong (personally) pushed a story that he had beaten cancer and then gone on to train so hard and so smart that he was able to beat the world in the toughest test of skill and ability in his chosen sport without using any drugs? Was that story true, or false? Did he profit from it, both in fame and fortune? In that regard, isn't it correct to see that aspect of this situation as being a scam?

I'm not saying that the fact that he won those races was a scam. Or that he did or didn't deserve to win them or that they were or weren't a major accomplishment given what we now know about them. I do disagree with your thesis that he had to because everyone was and thus it wasn't wrong or that he had to lie about it or they would have found out, so it isn't wrong - but that isn't the point that I was making.

My point was that he put it out there as a statement of what the human being is capable of to profit from it both personally and for his charity. No one was inspired by wearing a Livestrong bracelet because it reminded them that someone simply beat cancer or an adversity in their life. People do that every day so it isn't inspirational on it's own. They wore it because it reminded them that someone not only beat cancer/the adversity but went on to push himself to being even better than before. If the story was "you can beat cancer and then accomplish more if you take a bunch of weird drugs and lie and cheat and intimidate", the understanding and reception would have been a lot different. People know that is possible too, but they don't celebrate it or donate to foundations inspired by it. The media may have latched onto this story, but he was the one putting it out there for his own benefit and it is an established fact that it was a fabrication - or a scam, if you will.

If your point is that he pushed the boundaries of the grey areas of the rules and used every technique available to him within the letter of the law, then that I can understand. Who doesn't love Smokey Yunick's shenanigans or celebrate every technological advance in F1 that takes the most advantage of the rule-set as it is spelled out? But don't you think that there is a difference between maximizing the rules and cheating? "It isn't cheating if you don't get caught" is a funny saying, but it isn't true.

The rules, as I understand them, aren't "don't register x drug levels when tested", they are "don't take them whatsoever". Thus, he was clearly cheating. He acknowledges that. People cheat all the time, and no one cares unless it's against them. This is only noteworthy because he cheated and maintained a following based on showing others what they were capable of. He traded in inspiration, and did so fraudulently.

I should also note that "the media" isn't telling me that it's a scam and I'm not "eating anything up" from anyone. Correlation does not equal causation. FWIW, I've seen the media following the story but surprisingly little commentary on it from them. I have shown that I have my own reasoning behind my statement, and I feel that assuming that I am "clueless" and eating something up from the media is not showing me any due respect.

[fitfan]

i would say it isn't "cheating" if everyone is doing the same thing. and if the systems does not allow you to talk about what everyone is doing, then the problem is in the system, and not in he athlete who just wants to a 'level playing field'. if its the system, and the way things work - who is the hypocrite in that situation?

now, the levels since mid 2000 in cycling are so low... really, not much worth mentioning, and if a guy, past his prime, sit 2 years out of the sport, can come back with a half ass team. use nothing banned, and finish 3rd against the best? and someone is going to say his wins were all a lie? thats ignorant. the man is legit.

the issue about performance enhancing drugs is global - its not a US only problem - cycling is extremely popular world wide. although our US sports are a complete mess right now due to a lack controls. the fact is cycling is the most aggressive with not only controls, but with testing as well. and thats why its has been going through all this.

so again - i go back to what it said that my fear is all this (and everything you are saying) is all about Lance. and not about the sport -or the issues across all sports. That would be huge lost opportunity. i just don't understand why people are caught up in HIS drama. i understand he was #1 and famous and yada yada... but thats no different than "cheaters" like phelps, or every baseball and football player worth mentioning... and is it phelps fault? i say no, he is doing what they are all doing and what the system allows... fix the system. once there is a real systems in place then you talk about the cheaters. when its 99%... its not cheating.

yes, he fought cancer and lived to tell the tale, yes he trained as hard or harder than anyone else, yes, he was in a time and place to capitalize on a team structure and team preparation program the tour had never before seen before. he played fair against the competition, if not, he would have tested positive and been thrown out like most of the competition he was against. so what is the point now?

i get what you are saying about "image in sports" - but honestly, (other than the way he treated people along the way) he is so much cleaner and raced far less doped than many of our other "sports heros" so whats the point in hammering him down if your not going to go after the people that are worse than he is?

i am no Lance fan boy... i love cycling, i am proud of what professional cycling has done and the stand its taking over the past 20 years. i can't think of any other sport that can be proud, the other sports need to be ashamed right now. but this is all going be about lance, and not about that issue. and that is the shame.

lance didn't accomplish more because he doped - he accomplished more because all that stuff is true. thats why. or as my friend said "did he dope to win? no. did he dope so he wouldn't lose? yes." Lance (assuming he is being fairly honest about it - and it would seems so.) didn't do any new science cutting edge, never heard of doping that no one else had - he did a little less of the basics, and tested clean in and out of competition. others did a little more, and tested positive. pretty straight forward.

the most famous cyclist of all time, eddie merckx - was a big doper. caught many times for doping. lied about it, you name it. and he is the guy you see on stage in the tour de france as a hero - how is that right in this picture?

sorry if i called you clueless... that was not my intention - my intention was to say that making it all about lance, and not taking the opportunity to improve all sports from this - is ignorant. by "what the media tells you" i meant - the whole "lance thing" that people are caught up in. i just don't / never did get caught up in it. other people do...

he did a lot of great things, i will give him that - the only bad thing he did was to be better than everyone else, and well, as the saying goes....

[SwingLo]

Cyclists are so cute. They think that people actually care about their sport.



Sorry, had to do it...

[JWA]

I see what you are saying. I don't follow the sport so I can't comment on your points about the system it has evolved into, other than to agree that it/they seem to have an imbalance. It is a very tricky thing to build, a fair system to compare human performance. The consideration for where to draw the line between what is fair and unfair enhancement seems almost impossible to achieve.

[fitfan]

Well, my main points are that cycling, historically and in recent history, has the most aggressive "anti doping" testing and enforcement. I doubt we will see the american stadium sports tear themselves up like cycling has to get the sport and athletes as clean as possible. (they were "pretty clean" by the early 2000's and are very clean by late 2000's) Of course, the downside is that it becomes very visible. And you end up with the Lance situation. If he were a swimmer, baseball, football or basketball player no one would care to look.... So that's why I say it's all a waste, a waste of time and money to go after him, and a waste of him being in the media now about it. That's really all I am trying say. They are plenty of guys who "cheated" far worsevthan he did for their fame and fortune. But their sports have no process to even do anything about it.

The system in cycling now, is very comprehensive. With in competition testing, blood passports, and all the out of competition testing And the investigative system. It took a brutal 2 decades of destroying and re-inventing the sport to do it. But they did it.. Just let the do it. I don't see the benefit in these retro active investigations over the system from a decade ago, it has changed night and day. From then to now. That message gets lost, and for some crazy reason not adopted by other sports now...