Bombing in Israel.

[OneFastLotus]

I started this because MickO's thread about his trip to England was being overtaken. Apologies to Mick.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...565#post424565


What the heck is going on in Israel!

[LARRY]

Peace in the Middle East.
Why is this such a hard concept to achieve?

[mikester]

Originally Posted by scottyb

I think you need to educate yourself on the true history of the region before you start blaming Israel for all the problems. Also you need to educate yourself on the region. Being married to a Palestinian doesn't make you an expert, just biased.

Yes there is a problem. Israel offered the land and everything to Arafat. He rejected it. The Arabs in the region do not want peace they want to kill all the Israelis plain and simple. Peace is just the rhetoric they are using, but is far from their true intentions. In order to have a true lasting peace, you need to have two parties that want peace. Israel was willing before, but Arafat wasn't. Now no one wants peace. This is unfortunate because the whole region is a powder keg. The reason France and Russia are against Israel is because of their own special interest in obtaining cheap oil.

As for the reason for the current situation, that is due to Iran. Iran was taking on too much heat for their Nuclear program and decided to try and divert attention by having Hisballah attack Israel.

Soon to happen will be a reduction in Oil supplies to the US and Europe to try to sway opinion against Israelis.

As for you solution of no Israel, if that were to happen the Muslims wold then focus there attention on the Christians in the region. There is no appeasing extremist. Education and time are the only way.

Scottyb, although I don't claim to be an expert, I do know enough to say that your characterization is not quite accurate, in the sense that the Oslo peace accord (which I believe is what you're referring to when you say Israel offered the land and everything)was seriously flawed, because it effectively divided the lands that would have been proclaimed "Palestinian lands" into small, unsustainable enclaves and Isreal would still have kept control over crucial infrastructure items such as flow of commerce and water etc., so it was a bit cynical.

That aside, I agree that the whole thing is a mess and I do not claim to have the solution out of this. There's plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. What's needed I think is some real leadership with an eye toward ratcheting down, not up, these hostilities and some equity for all.

[Stretch002]

Good question. I am certainly not educated enough to hazard a guess about what will come of this. Nor will I make any political juudgements.

My concern is what this will due to our economy. It's hard not to think that this will cause gas prices to sky rocket (maybe I should start buying oil futures!). If gas prices get more expensive then inflation will continue to rise at an even faster pace. Everything from food in the grocery store to clothing has to be shipped via truck, plane, train or boat. All of those require fuel of some sort. Hard to imagine those costs not being passed on to us consumers.

With inflation rising faster the Fed will not pause in their interest rate hikes. The rising rates are already affecting home sales (inventory has tripled in hte last year to record levels). Not to mention the 1.2 Trillion dollars worth of adjustable rate mortgages (ARMS) which reset in 2007. Higher rates mean a tanking housing market - that will affect our economy in a big way!

Sorry for the rambling. Guess I'll sell my house, buy gold and go live in the woods somewhere...LOL

[scottyb]

As for the reason for the current situation, that is due to Iran. Iran was taking on too much heat for their Nuclear program and decided to try and divert attention by having Hezbollah attack Israel.

Soon to happen will be a reduction in Oil supplies to the US and Europe to try to sway opinion against Israelis.

Current thinking (not allowed to say the sources) Syria will get involved via being provoked (either truly by Israel or just blame Israel). Then Iran will get involved. Iran will then hope that the US will be involved. This will achieve a few objectives for Iran: 1) US will have multiple fronts to fight 2) The Iraq situation will become completely unmanageable for us leaving complete chaos that will allow Iran to influence that country 3)All Arab countries will view the US as "Israeli Lovers" which will escalate violence against us world wide with a "Holy War" 4) Oil prices will soar and the European Union will not back us because their economies would not be able to weather this storm.

This scenario would be bad for us, but the USA cannot and will not abandon Israel for many reasons that the general public is not aware of.

The only thing going toward the US is that Syria might be reluctant to join in because the government is afraid that the US might jump in like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and they would loose power. Syria is also afraid that they will be left on their own because of past history. Traditionally Arab collations fall apart because their neighbors are quick to tuck and run when the going gets tough.

Unfortunately Iran doesn't share this fear because of their history in the region and they figure they will be invaded because of the Nuclear Situation.

All in all, the entire thing sucks and there will be no winner.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by LARRY22331

Peace in the Middle East.
Why is this such a hard concept to achieve?

Generation after generation after generation of hatred, religious zealots, and refusal to see the other's point of view. That makes for a huge stumbling block to peace.

[FunElan]

Also remember that a couple days ago, Hamas kidnapped a soldier and killed a soldier in Gaza. I'm just glad that our itinerary will be changed so we will not be staying near the current issues.

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by mikester

Scottyb, although I don't claim to be an expert, I do know enough to say that your characterization is not quite accurate, in the sense that the Oslo peace accord (which I believe is what you're referring to when you say Israel offered the land and everything)was seriously flawed, because it effectively divided the lands that would have been proclaimed "Palestinian lands" into small, unsustainable enclaves and Isreal would still have kept control over crucial infrastructure items such as flow of commerce and water etc., so it was a bit cynical.

That aside, I agree that the whole thing is a mess and I do not claim to have the solution out of this. There's plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. What's needed I think is some real leadership with an eye toward ratcheting down, not up, these hostilities and some equity for all.

Obviously there is a lot more to the history, but I really don't want to type a 1000 page history of the region. There is plenty of blame to go to everyone who has been involved with the region including the UN, England, France, US, Russia, etc.

[Wasabi]

Can't we all just get along???

[evomind]

Originally Posted by scottyb

As for the reason for the current situation, that is due to Iran. Iran was taking on too much heat for their Nuclear program and decided to try and divert attention by having Hezbollah attack Israel.

Soon to happen will be a reduction in Oil supplies to the US and Europe to try to sway opinion against Israelis.

Current thinking (not allowed to say the sources) Syria will get involved via being provoked (either truly by Israel or just blame Israel). Then Iran will get involved. Iran will then hope that the US will be involved. This will achieve a few objectives for Iran: 1) US will have multiple fronts to fight 2) The Iraq situation will become completely unmanageable for us leaving complete chaos that will allow Iran to influence that country 3)All Arab countries will view the US as "Israeli Lovers" which will escalate violence against us world wide with a "Holy War" 4) Oil prices will soar and the European Union will not back us because their economies would not be able to weather this storm.

This scenario would be bad for us, but the USA cannot and will not abandon Israel for many reasons that the general public is not aware of.

The only thing going toward the US is that Syria might be reluctant to join in because the government is afraid that the US might jump in like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and they would loose power. Syria is also afraid that they will be left on their own because of past history. Traditionally Arab collations fall apart because their neighbors are quick to tuck and run when the going gets tough.

Unfortunately Iran doesn't share this fear because of their history in the region and they figure they will be invaded because of the Nuclear Situation.

All in all, the entire thing sucks and there will be no winner.

we cant begin to get to the bottom of or solve worlds crisis here on our board, i know. (however i think some of u would disagree..)
the mid east already hates us and most of that is due to our involvement with isreal. we keep selling isreal the planes and tanks they use to squash their opposition. in fact, i think the only mid east country with a bigger army WAS iraq. well, we know what happened there. the u.s. decimated their country over WMD's that didnt exist. now, the perception is that there really is no opposition to isreal, from the rest of the regions view.
i have several mid eastern friends and trust me, our media coverage of events there is weak, and the news we DO get is very one sided.
trust me, the u.s. is no angel in the mid east conflicts for many years and many of them hate us for good reason.
this stuff is just a 10 headed snake....

[ivan1]

I agree Syria will likely be involved next which will lead to Iran's involvement. It could backfire on Iran by leading to military strikes against their suspected nucs sites, which is something both the US and Israel are hesitant to do right now....

[ivan1]

The bottom line is we need to reduce our depndence on mideast oil. Bring on the electric elise

[Shiftlock]

Originally Posted by evomind

our media coverage of events there is weak, and the news we DO get is very one sided.
trust me, the u.s. is no angel in the mid east conflicts for many years and many of them hate us for good reason.

This couldn't be more true. Every American should be required to spend 3 hours a week scanning the shortwave bands at night, and listening to the news from the perspective of the rest of the world. Doing so is humbling, depressing, freightning, and enlightning all at the same time.

[zvezdah1]

Thanks for moving this Jenn!
Chris

[zvezdah1]

Our news coverage of world events is pathetic. The US public seems to more concerned about where Jolie had her baby etc. It's embarassing the average american's lack of interest in world affairs.
Chris

[scottyb]

Once gas is above $5/gallon Midleast Oil will no longer be perceived as a cheaper source of energy and you will see a big push towards alternate fuel sources.

Evomind, just remember that Israel is the only true Democracy in the region and has been shown to be a true partner in many respects. They have not been easy to deal with, but show me a better more stable partner in the region.

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by LARRY22331

Peace in the Middle East.
Why is this such a hard concept to achieve?

Because you have a religion that preaches death to all those who do not submit. They do not recognize Israel's right to exist.The only time the shiites and sunnis get along is when it comes to agreeing that all Jews should die.

[zvezdah1]

Cardinal brings up a good point.

Until the Arab nations recognize (and not just pay lip service to) Israel's right to existence you won't see any change. Then we have the Saudi Kingdom as well as Iran's deep pockets to finance a lot of the terrorism, as well as the worldwide Wahabbist schools which teach a particularly virulent islamic fundamentalism to add to the mix.

Chris

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by zvezdah1

Cardinal brings up a good point.

Until the Arab nations recognize (and not just pay lip service to) Israel's right to existence you won't see any change. Then we have the Saudi Kingdom as well as Iran's deep pockets to finance a lot of the terrorism, as well as the worldwide Wahabbist schools which teach a particularly virulent islamic fundamentalism to add to the mix.

Chris

The Saudi Kingdom will not get involved, they will just pay their neighbors lip service. If Saudi Arabia is involved they will end up cutting oil production to the US. The US will call in all the loans that Saudi Arabia has with us. When the king runs out of cash, of which he is short right now, he will not have the funds to keep his unhappy citizens in check. He will loose control of the country which lead to Radiological pollution of all of the Saudi Oil Fields because of their dooms day plans and the World will fall into a new Depression the likes of which have not yet been seen.

Thus Saudi Arabia will not be a problem. I would be more concerned with our influence on North Korea if we end up in the fight.

[RepsolRoss]

Anyone read the bible?

I'm no bible beater by any means, but I am taking classes for my 2nd and 3rd degrees at Concordia University right now. Concordia is a Lutheran university so I have to have religion credits. Currently I'm in my Old Testament course. Take a read, if you believe it, it may make you worry a bit.