McCain FLIP-FLOPS, a partial list - LotusTalk

glb · 08-31-2008, 05:22 PM

OK, now I’m worried John is going to break a hip.

gb addition to list:

Experience

Experience counted until John had to pick a VP. Now, it doesn’t. He claimed “Obama would rather lose a war in order to win a political campaign”.

Crap, I’m more qualified to be VP than Sarah is.

Confederate Flag

BEFORE

McCain 1/12/00: "Personally, I see the flag as symbol of heritage."

AFTER

McCain 4/19/00: "I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles." [CNN]

Gun control

BEFORE

In 2001, McCain and Lieberman introduce legislation to regulate gun shows. [HuffPo]

AFTER

McCain 4/19/07: "I strongly support the Second Amendment and I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved, which means no gun control" [WashPost]

Moqtada al Sadr [hat tip Think Progress]

BEFORE

McCain week of 3/16/08: "His influence has been on the wane for a long time." [CNN via Think Progress]

AFTER

4/1/08: "I said he was still major player and his influence is going to have to be reduced and gradually eliminated." [CNN via Think Progress]

Housing Relief

BEFORE

March 2008: "It is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers." [NY Times]

AFTER

4/11/08: "Let me make it clear, that in these challenging times, I am committed to using all the resources of this government and great nation to create opportunity and make sure that every deserving American has a good job and can achieve their American dream." [NY Times

The Press and Hillary

BEFORE

"The media often overlooked how compassionately [Hillary Clinton] spoke to the concerns and dreams of millions of Americans.”

AFTER

“I did not [say that]."

[Think Progress]

The Estate Tax

BEFORE

"I am concerned that repeal of the estate tax would provide massive benefits solely to the wealthiest and highest-income taxpayers in the country. A Treasury Department study found that almost no estate tax has been paid by lower- and middle-income taxpayers. But taxes have been paid on the estates of people who were in the highest 20% of the income distribution at the time of their death. It found that 91% of all estate taxes are paid by the estates of people whose annual income exceeded $190,000 around the time of their death."

AFTER

"Another of my disagreements with Senator Obama concerns the estate tax, which he proposes to increase to a top rate of 55 percent. The estate tax is one of the most unfair tax laws on the books, and the first step to reform is to keep it predictable and keep it low."

[Matthew Yglesias]

Wiretaps

BEFORE

"There are some areas where the statutes don’t apply, such as in the surveillance of overseas communications. Where they do apply, however, I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is."

AFTER

McCain spokesman: "Neither the administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the A.C.L.U. and trial lawyers, understand were constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001,”

[NY Times]

Immigration Reform

#1

BEFORE

McCain introduces bill on immigration reform.

AFTER

January 30, 2008, when asked if he would vote for his own bill: ""No, I would not, because we know what the situation is today. The people want the borders secured first.""

[MediaMatters]

#2

BEFORE

May 22, 2008: "[We must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009."

AFTER

National Review: "Team McCain tells me the senator’s comments were poorly worded. There’s been no discussion within the campaign of altering their stance on illegal immigration, and as far as everyone on the campaign is concerned, the policy is still, ’secure the border first.’"

[Think Progress]

Offshore drilling

BEFORE

1999 campaign: McCain opposes offshore drilling

AFTER

McCain 6/15/08: ""There are areas off our coasts that should be open to exploration and exploitation, and I hope we can take the first step by lifting the moratoria."

[MotherJones]

Hurricane Katrina investigations
BEFORE

2006: McCain opposes commission to study government's response to Hurricane Katrina.

[LA Times]

AFTER

McCain 6/4/08: "I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy."

[Think Progress]

gb note: He stood in front of Gulf victims and lied about supporting bills to help rebuild the area.

Guantanamo

BEFORE

2005: "I think, on balance, the argument has got to be--the weight of evidence has got to be that we've got to adjudicate these people's cases, and that means that if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them."

AFTER

Following 2008 Supreme Court Decision requiring trials for detainees: "One of the worst decisions in the history of this country"

[PoliticalBase]

Social Security Privatization

BEFORE

2004: "Without privatization, I don’t see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits.”

3/3/2008: "“As part of Social Security reform, I believe that private savings accounts are a part of it — along the lines that President Bush proposed.”

AFTER

6/13/08: “I’m not for, quote, privatizing Social Security. I never have been. I never will be.”

[Think Progress]

Minimum Wage

BEFORE

McCain votes against minimum wage increases 19 times.

AFTER

8/31/08: "I’m for the minimum wage increases when they are not attached to other big-spending pork barrel."

Please see what I posted about his "caring" for Veterans. WOW.

Please, i cannot take another President who lies so easily about important topics.

-g

Bavarian Motorist · 08-31-2008, 05:41 PM

Some of that is just typical politics, but other parts of that are just disgusting.

TheRedMenace · 08-31-2008, 06:28 PM

There is nothing good, redeeming or electable about that guy no matter how hot his running mate is. John McCain is NOT a Republican. He never was, he never will be.

Bavarian Motorist · 08-31-2008, 06:29 PM

Hot? Dude, raise your standards...

Maybe I'm just too young

texige · 08-31-2008, 06:37 PM

Can we keep the propaganda and political crap off of Lotus Talk? It doesn't make any difference if it's left wing or right wing. Crap is crap!

antinym · 09-01-2008, 12:49 AM

I'm not much for McCain, but I suggest to anyone to verify before believing. Voting records are usually the hardest thing because many bills can be tied together, and though the senator may favor one section, he may vote against the bill for other reasons.

TheRedMenace · 09-01-2008, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Hot? Dude, raise your standards...

Well, hot by comparison to the dogs the Democrats have barking at the podium.

glb · 09-01-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antinym

I'm not much for McCain, but I suggest to anyone to verify before believing. Voting records are usually the hardest thing because many bills can be tied together, and though the senator may favor one section, he may vote against the bill for other reasons.

a - thanks.

True, but if you were to check McCain's voting record on veterans and on the environment, you'd notice - as I did - distrubing trends.

Wouldn't an effective legislator get something done if he were really for a motion?

There are reasons, then there are excuses...

-g

NMRJock · 09-01-2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texige

Can we keep the propaganda and political crap off of Lotus Talk? It doesn't make any difference if it's left wing or right wing. Crap is crap!

+1. It's too bad that politics can turn otherwise intelligent, interesting people into gibbering idiots parroting a bunch of crap they read somewhere that was written by other overzealous gibbering idiots.

Tracktimeplz · 09-01-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antinym

I'm not much for McCain, but I suggest to anyone to verify before believing. Voting records are usually the hardest thing because many bills can be tied together, and though the senator may favor one section, he may vote against the bill for other reasons.

Problem solved

Project Vote Smart - Senator John Sidney McCain III - Voting Record

wallabyguy · 09-01-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antinym

I'm not much for McCain, but I suggest to anyone to verify before believing. Voting records are usually the hardest thing because many bills can be tied together, and though the senator may favor one section, he may vote against the bill for other reasons.

very true and often hard for some to accept.

local600 · 09-01-2008, 10:22 AM

There only needed to be one thing that came out of his mouth to make me consider leaving this country if he "wins" and here it is:

“I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there (Iraq) for 100 years, or a 1,000 years, or 10,000 years” - John McCain

RichS · 09-01-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texige

Can we keep the propaganda and political crap off of Lotus Talk? It doesn't make any difference if it's left wing or right wing. Crap is crap!

While I agree that a lot of these things are crap, I also believe that you don't have to click the threads.

local600 · 09-01-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichS

While I agree that a lot of these things are crap, I also believe that you don't have to click the threads.

True, but can they not at least RELATE to the cars somehow? We come here for cars, we want politics, we go somewhere else. This stuff just disrupts the camaraderie of what this place is all about. Why stir it up?

glb · 09-01-2008, 07:34 PM

well....some of us think elections are important, this one in particular.

I am surprised, tho, at how many low-info &/or one-issue &/or narrow world-view voters we have in US.

As for automotive content, here's some.

Vote for the candidate who has an anagram of "CAR" in his first name.

PS: When gas spikes up again, we'll here more of the 55 mph natl speed limit that started bubbling this summer.

Wow, I guess I'm a single-issue voter!!

Cardinal · 09-01-2008, 08:09 PM

I guess the good news for the Democrats is that Obama hasn't been around long enough to flip flop.

NMRJock · 09-01-2008, 08:23 PM

Four years ago a lot of democrats were defending Kerry's "flip-flops" because it showed that he was dynamic and open-minded. Personally, I agree. In the meantime the republicans got the Kerry flip-flop message out at every opportunity.

Now, the democratic leadership is going to try to use the same play against McCain.

In the meantime, nobody pays any attention to what the candidates really think about the issues so long as they've only espoused one viewpoint unwaveringly throughout their entire career.

Besides, I've changed my opinion on things over the years. I think that's a natural thing for anybody that keeps processing new information to do. Why shouldn't Kerry or McCain (or Obama)?

qball · 09-01-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by local600

True, but can they not at least RELATE to the cars somehow? We come here for cars, we want politics, we go somewhere else. This stuff just disrupts the camaraderie of what this place is all about. Why stir it up?

That's why it's on the OTHER forum... "Anything else that does not fit somewhere else."

Z-dculus · 09-02-2008, 09:00 AM

did someone say flip flops?

http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

enjoy.

glb · 09-02-2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMRJock

Four years ago a lot of democrats were defending Kerry's "flip-flops" because it showed that he was dynamic and open-minded. Personally, I agree. In the meantime the republicans got the Kerry flip-flop message out at every opportunity.

Now, the democratic leadership is going to try to use the same play against McCain.

In the meantime, nobody pays any attention to what the candidates really think about the issues so long as they've only espoused one viewpoint unwaveringly throughout their entire career.

Besides, I've changed my opinion on things over the years. I think that's a natural thing for anybody that keeps processing new information to do. Why shouldn't Kerry or McCain (or Obama)?

I mostly agree. Kerry voted for invading Iraq, learned more info, then was against it.

Yes, we should adjust to changing situtation.

I submit, tho, that given this list (AND the fact that McCain is now against bills HE introduced), we are seeing something different here. It is a profound repudiation of his beliefs simply to get elected.

I always felt McCain put the country's best interests high up (if not 1st) in his priorities.

But, with his not voting $$ to help veterans and his flip-flops on very important issues, that case can no longer be made. I am disappointed.

08-31-2008, 05:22 PM	#1 (permalink)
glb Unattractive Nuisance Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chester, NJ Posts: 3,419	McCain FLIP-FLOPS, a partial list OK, now I’m worried John is going to break a hip. gb addition to list: Experience Experience counted until John had to pick a VP. Now, it doesn’t. He claimed “Obama would rather lose a war in order to win a political campaign”. Crap, I’m more qualified to be VP than Sarah is. Confederate Flag BEFORE McCain 1/12/00: "Personally, I see the flag as symbol of heritage." AFTER McCain 4/19/00: "I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles." [CNN] Gun control BEFORE In 2001, McCain and Lieberman introduce legislation to regulate gun shows. [HuffPo] AFTER McCain 4/19/07: "I strongly support the Second Amendment and I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved, which means no gun control" [WashPost] Moqtada al Sadr [hat tip Think Progress] BEFORE McCain week of 3/16/08: "His influence has been on the wane for a long time." [CNN via Think Progress] AFTER 4/1/08: "I said he was still major player and his influence is going to have to be reduced and gradually eliminated." [CNN via Think Progress] Housing Relief BEFORE March 2008: "It is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers." [NY Times] AFTER 4/11/08: "Let me make it clear, that in these challenging times, I am committed to using all the resources of this government and great nation to create opportunity and make sure that every deserving American has a good job and can achieve their American dream." [NY Times The Press and Hillary BEFORE "The media often overlooked how compassionately [Hillary Clinton] spoke to the concerns and dreams of millions of Americans.” AFTER “I did not [say that]." [Think Progress] The Estate Tax BEFORE "I am concerned that repeal of the estate tax would provide massive benefits solely to the wealthiest and highest-income taxpayers in the country. A Treasury Department study found that almost no estate tax has been paid by lower- and middle-income taxpayers. But taxes have been paid on the estates of people who were in the highest 20% of the income distribution at the time of their death. It found that 91% of all estate taxes are paid by the estates of people whose annual income exceeded $190,000 around the time of their death." AFTER "Another of my disagreements with Senator Obama concerns the estate tax, which he proposes to increase to a top rate of 55 percent. The estate tax is one of the most unfair tax laws on the books, and the first step to reform is to keep it predictable and keep it low." [Matthew Yglesias] Wiretaps BEFORE "There are some areas where the statutes don’t apply, such as in the surveillance of overseas communications. Where they do apply, however, I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is." AFTER McCain spokesman: "Neither the administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the A.C.L.U. and trial lawyers, understand were constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001,” [NY Times] Immigration Reform #1 BEFORE McCain introduces bill on immigration reform. AFTER January 30, 2008, when asked if he would vote for his own bill: ""No, I would not, because we know what the situation is today. The people want the borders secured first."" [MediaMatters] #2 BEFORE May 22, 2008: "[We must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009." AFTER National Review: "Team McCain tells me the senator’s comments were poorly worded. There’s been no discussion within the campaign of altering their stance on illegal immigration, and as far as everyone on the campaign is concerned, the policy is still, ’secure the border first.’" [Think Progress] Offshore drilling BEFORE 1999 campaign: McCain opposes offshore drilling AFTER McCain 6/15/08: ""There are areas off our coasts that should be open to exploration and exploitation, and I hope we can take the first step by lifting the moratoria." [MotherJones] Hurricane Katrina investigations BEFORE 2006: McCain opposes commission to study government's response to Hurricane Katrina. [LA Times] AFTER McCain 6/4/08: "I’ve supported every investigation and ways of finding out what caused the tragedy." [Think Progress] gb note: He stood in front of Gulf victims and lied about supporting bills to help rebuild the area. Guantanamo BEFORE 2005: "I think, on balance, the argument has got to be--the weight of evidence has got to be that we've got to adjudicate these people's cases, and that means that if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them." AFTER Following 2008 Supreme Court Decision requiring trials for detainees: "One of the worst decisions in the history of this country" [PoliticalBase] Social Security Privatization BEFORE 2004: "Without privatization, I don’t see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits.” 3/3/2008: "“As part of Social Security reform, I believe that private savings accounts are a part of it — along the lines that President Bush proposed.” AFTER 6/13/08: “I’m not for, quote, privatizing Social Security. I never have been. I never will be.” [Think Progress] Minimum Wage BEFORE McCain votes against minimum wage increases 19 times. AFTER 8/31/08: "I’m for the minimum wage increases when they are not attached to other big-spending pork barrel." Please see what I posted about his "caring" for Veterans. WOW. Please, i cannot take another President who lies so easily about important topics. -g __________________ 05 elise (PES chip, SSRs, Sirius, shift tower reinforcement, Multivex; HID low beams) 05 Corolla XRS; 72 Elan Sprint, 170 hp (Sold) "I can resist anything except temptation" O. Wilde. "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable." G. Orwell, 1946.

08-31-2008, 05:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bavarian Motorist Live to Drive Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Rye, NY Posts: 8,244	Some of that is just typical politics, but other parts of that are just disgusting. __________________ Driving a Lotus Exige with sticky... performance tires on icy roads or in standing water is about as much fun as walking a high wire treated with WD-40 - Car & Driver BWR supercharged... I suppose I "got the power" now??

08-31-2008, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
Bavarian Motorist Live to Drive Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Rye, NY Posts: 8,244	Hot? Dude, raise your standards... Maybe I'm just too young __________________ Driving a Lotus Exige with sticky... performance tires on icy roads or in standing water is about as much fun as walking a high wire treated with WD-40 - Car & Driver BWR supercharged... I suppose I "got the power" now??

09-01-2008, 10:22 AM	#12 (permalink)
local600 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: burbank, ca Posts: 174	There only needed to be one thing that came out of his mouth to make me consider leaving this country if he "wins" and here it is: “I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there (Iraq) for 100 years, or a 1,000 years, or 10,000 years” - John McCain __________________ John McCain on Iraq: “I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for 100 years, or a 1,000 years, or 10,000 years” Sarah Palin on running mate rumors: “As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day?

09-01-2008, 07:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
glb Unattractive Nuisance Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chester, NJ Posts: 3,419	well....some of us think elections are important, this one in particular. I am surprised, tho, at how many low-info &/or one-issue &/or narrow world-view voters we have in US. As for automotive content, here's some. Vote for the candidate who has an anagram of "CAR" in his first name. PS: When gas spikes up again, we'll here more of the 55 mph natl speed limit that started bubbling this summer. Wow, I guess I'm a single-issue voter!! __________________ 05 elise (PES chip, SSRs, Sirius, shift tower reinforcement, Multivex; HID low beams) 05 Corolla XRS; 72 Elan Sprint, 170 hp (Sold) "I can resist anything except temptation" O. Wilde. "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable." G. Orwell, 1946.

08-31-2008, 06:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
TheRedMenace Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 361 Images: 3	There is nothing good, redeeming or electable about that guy no matter how hot his running mate is. John McCain is NOT a Republican. He never was, he never will be.

08-31-2008, 06:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
texige Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: austin texas Posts: 667	Can we keep the propaganda and political crap off of Lotus Talk? It doesn't make any difference if it's left wing or right wing. Crap is crap!

09-01-2008, 12:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
antinym The Doombringer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 474	I'm not much for McCain, but I suggest to anyone to verify before believing. Voting records are usually the hardest thing because many bills can be tied together, and though the senator may favor one section, he may vote against the bill for other reasons.

09-01-2008, 08:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
Cardinal Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metro North Boston Posts: 2,977 Images: 5	I guess the good news for the Democrats is that Obama hasn't been around long enough to flip flop. __________________ '05 SY Elise TP, HT, LSS, Arqray singletip, #307

09-01-2008, 08:23 PM	#17 (permalink)
NMRJock A smile a mile. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 3,302	Four years ago a lot of democrats were defending Kerry's "flip-flops" because it showed that he was dynamic and open-minded. Personally, I agree. In the meantime the republicans got the Kerry flip-flop message out at every opportunity. Now, the democratic leadership is going to try to use the same play against McCain. In the meantime, nobody pays any attention to what the candidates really think about the issues so long as they've only espoused one viewpoint unwaveringly throughout their entire career. Besides, I've changed my opinion on things over the years. I think that's a natural thing for anybody that keeps processing new information to do. Why shouldn't Kerry or McCain (or Obama)? __________________ Paul Parkanzky Magnetic Blue with Biscuit Touring, LSS, Starshield

09-02-2008, 09:00 AM	#19 (permalink)
Z-dculus Derriere Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: US OF A! Posts: 2,107	did someone say flip flops? http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv enjoy. __________________ 2006 KG-Sport Pack, LSD, TC, SS, Multivex, Lotus Stage II/powercoated diffuser, CF Zoom Rear View, Sector LidBone, Darth Holder (thanks Kestrel!), Sector 4Tress Harness Bar/CRD Mount, couple exige trim pieces 2004 Nissan 350z - Super Black-too many mods to list-SOLD to my brother 1978 Chevrolet Caprice Classic -(daily driver) *Seasoned veteran member of the KG Mafia

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