Is Obama finished?

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by apk919

I'm bored by it. Maybe I'll get to it later. Maybe not.

Woohoo!!!!

If you can't win with facts, go for the battle of attrition!!!

I win by manner of boring my opponent into submission!!!

[fishguy]

Originally Posted by Rob T

I.E. please refer all further arguments to him, and I will simply add a "+1" since I really can't speak for myself (or have any idea what I am talking about for that matter)!

+1

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by Rob T

I.E. please refer all further arguments to him, and I will simply add a "+1" since I really can't speak for myself (or have any idea what I am talking about for that matter)!

=!

crap! i can't even get that right...

[apk919]

Originally Posted by smoseley

I don't really think I need to spell all this out again for you, do I? Fine, I will, just because you seem to have trouble getting history straight:


You came back with some off-kilter argument about how all religious people believe in little green men.

Originally Posted by smoseley

Woohoo!!!!

If you can't win with facts, go for the battle of attrition!!!

I win by manner of boring my opponent into submission!!!

OK, if you insist, I'll hit up one of your bullets points...

I never said religious people believed in little green men (citation please?). I didn't think so.

I did say that many religious people believe that demons, specifically Satan, are responsible for sin. That's not my opinion, that's theirs.

Most Christians do not believe that Mohammed spoke to God. Therefore they believe that he was either lying or decieved somehow into believing that he did.

Nowhere did I say that Mohammed or the vast majority of Muslims are evil.

See that wasn't so bad. But I've got things to do and don't have time to refute the other points.

[glb]

Originally Posted by apk919

Presumptive and childish... no need to respond

Bad decision-making is a personality trait that doesn't go away in 4 yrs. Moreover, I'm sure that 90+% of McCain supporters voted for Bush. Would you fellows care to share this info?

Originally Posted by apk919

Need I remind you that Bush is not running for president in 2008. Wake up!

Is it not relevant that McPain wants to extend the same bad policies?

Originally Posted by apk919

Still fighting that battle?

I've not lost one yet. There is an amorphous feeling among many of you that somehow Bush hasn't been as bad as reality and numbers indicate.

So, I've repeatedly called your bluffs...but NO ONE can come up with a list. Gee, why do you think that might be?

Originally Posted by apk919

Uh, no.

Uh, yes. Maybe you should look again at what I wrote, read a couple of papers, listen to a non-Fox station. Are you claiming that what I wrote was not true? (Kerry said only that he voted for the war before changing his mind. BFD.)

Originally Posted by apk919

Tax cuts don't create a deficit. Spending does. You're not too good at math yourself.

1. Wrong still and again. As per the GAO, the tax cuts are about 65% of the deficit.

2. You are now in the frying pan: The Republican admin spends money as if they/we had it. Bush vetoed exactly one spending bill in 7.5 yrs.

So, they can't bring money in, only shovel it out. Do you wish to maintain that this is good policy?

Are you happy with the deficit and debt for which your grandkids may still be paying?

Originally Posted by apk919

Really? Example please.

Um...that Was an example. He spoke at Falwell's school, praised the other religious right a-hole. Google this if you like; it's been all over the (non-Fox) news.

Originally Posted by apk919

Now that's really a bad idea. Suiting voters. We'll have none of that!

So, when Kerry does it, it's flipping and when McCain does it, it's an "adjustment"? See any inconsistency here?

McCain's done more about-faces than a platoon of bobbleheads on a lazy susan. (I wish I could think of a better analogy...)

Originally Posted by apk919

Says who? Arianna Huffington?

A number of people say they heard him say this.

Originally Posted by apk919

Yeah, market forces never work. Central planning is best. See: Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea, etc.

Where did I claim we should become communists? You are avoiding the central part of this issue: Health care, as currently built and as McCain wants, isn't working well in the US. See every other industrialized country. See our low ratings in many health areas (one ex: infant mortality). No country such as ours should have so many uninsured, so many kids unable to get care, such high costs that our businesses cannot compete.

Originally Posted by apk919

And how much will Obama's cost? Yeah, I though so.

Obama and Clinton can pay for much of this by rescinding the tax cuts that McCain NOW wants to make permanent. Eliminating the Iraq war costs would really help.

Originally Posted by apk919

The same way that we've always paid for defense.

Which is not the way we are paying for it now, is it? It's not even part of the budget and adds to the deficit.

Might there be a reason that no one ever cut taxes during a war or two?

Originally Posted by apk919

Yeah, we couldn't possibly find a better use for $18 billion/yr.

I have a feeling you are purposefully missing my points when they become uncomfortable for you.

$18 bill will not - repeat - not pay for what McCain has proposed. So, if he can't bring in any additional funds, what does that do to our debt and deficit?

Originally Posted by apk919

Very good actually. How are you on reality?

1. I tutored math.

2. Your answer is glib, but again doesn't address the issue.

The math is: What would 4 yrs of McCain bring our financial well-being.

The answer is: Very negative results. I mean negative in both senses.

Originally Posted by apk919

Better to be confused about which terrorists are which than confused about whether your own associates are terrorists!

I have no idea why you wrote this. Did you have an actual point?

Originally Posted by apk919

You mean Obama, right? He clearly doesn't understand anything about economics

You know about whom I was referring. Have you some proof that either Clinton or Obama know less than McCain. Both Clinton's and McCain's idea to eliminate the gas tax was pandering and exactly the opposite of what's called for.

McCain did admit this, you know. You did know that, right?

Originally Posted by apk919

Well reasoned!

I know what McCain and Bush said about not voting for it. Do you? Believe me, the excuse was laughable.

Originally Posted by apk919

His religious guy? You mean his spiritual advisor? The man who married him and his wife? Baptized his children? Was the inspiration for a book he wrote? Who's insanity he listened to from a church pew for 20 years? Yeah, I didn't think so.

McCain's guy called Catholicism "the great whore". After Obama's guy went blooey, Obama disassociated himself from him.

McCain still backs the "whore" guy.

As an atheist, I find all this amusing.

Originally Posted by apk919

Yeah, it's easy to legislate against a class 5 hurricane. Maybe those people would be better off replacing their idiot governor and mayor first.

We are discussing post-hurricane actions here, aren't we? What I said was completely true, but you'd rather switch topics....of course, I would, too, if I were you.

Originally Posted by apk919

Uh, quite a few democrats voted for those policies too. Haven't they had control of the house and senate for the last few years?

Actually, no. Of the two years, one Democratic senator was in hospital for over 10 months, and Lieberman voted with Republicans.

Moreover, a majority of one doesn't prevent vetoes.

More importantly, look again at this list. Democrats had almost nothing to do with these failed policies.

Originally Posted by apk919

As opposed to vague platitudes?

Wrong yet again. Obama & Clinton have much more defined plans than McCain, including costs and how to pay for them, which McCain does not. Platitudes R McCain.

Originally Posted by apk919

Only if you promise to also.

Why should I? I voted correctly and had you and others done the same, we would be in much better shape (strategically, economically, our standing in the world, etc) and Iran wouldn't have the upper hand in the Middle East.

I can defend my vote. Can you defend yours? I say most of you voted for the worst prez in our history. I did not.

Originally Posted by apk919

That's OK, I'm pretty sure that this administration is not running for reelection.

No? McCain has promised to continue failed policies initiated by this administration. The reason McCain will lose big is that 80% of the people will say to themselves "we can't afford 4 more years of these messes".

And, they will be right.

Originally Posted by apk919

See, that was easy!

What exactly did you accomplish? You offered no facts, showed a disinclination to engage on actual issues, refuse to believe how our deficit was created, why 80% think are country is going downhill, why this administration has the lowest approval rating in history.

While you were congratulating yourself for "mission accomplished", more of our troops died, we spent 100's of millions, more people lost jobs and homes, more people had to visit ERs for primary health care, the DOJ probably got worse, more of us were spied on, more were tortured and you are OK with all that, right?

Spare us this sophmoric attitude and blind faith in failed policies.

I could say: "Thanks for playing, better luck next time" but won't.

[glb]

Originally Posted by ezmoney

apk919

Great post (your answers to glb). In the future please don't confuse him with the facts!

Sorry, but the facts are on my side.

[apk919]

Originally Posted by glb

...listen to a non-Fox station.

...praised the other religious right a-hole.

McCain's done more about-faces than a platoon of bobbleheads on a lazy susan.

Spare us this sophmoric attitude and blind faith

Yes, please!

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by apk919

I never said religious people believed in little green men (citation please?). I didn't think so.

Demons = little green men with horns.

Originally Posted by apk919

I did say that many religious people believe that demons, specifically Satan, are responsible for sin. That's not my opinion, that's theirs.

So you DID say religious people believe in "little green men" (demons). In my experience, only a fraction of devout religious people I've met actually believe in the physical incarnation of spirits. Most people are grounded enough to understand not to take that stuff literally.

Originally Posted by apk919

Most Christians do not believe that Mohammed spoke to God. Therefore they believe that he was either lying or decieved somehow into believing that he did.

Most Christians, logically, would not believe that Mohammed spoke to God. End of story.

The rest of your assertion is concocted, obviously intended to blindly lead the reader into drawing the conclusion that McCain's whackos are just very devout Christians, and can't be blamed for that.

Let's be very clear on the fact that they are extremists, one of whom wishes to see Islam and Muslims destroyed - the same Jihadist mentality that we condemn in terrorists who want to see Christianity and Christians destroyed.

Originally Posted by apk919

Nowhere did I say that Mohammed or the vast majority of Muslims are evil.

Nor did I say you did. I said that McCain's nut-job preacher-associates said that.

[apk919]

Originally Posted by smoseley

Demons = little green men with horns.

So you DID say religious people believe in "little green men" (demons).

Can I just substitute random phrases in your posts to make them less credible too?
It looks like fun!



I think I'll stick to the threads and posters who have something interesting to say about Lotus cars. The "Alice In Wonderland" debating style here is entertaining, but not informative.

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by apk919

Yes, please!

Debating 101, with Steve Moseley:

Troll-Baiting: What is Troll-Baiting?

If you're unable to refute your opponent's overwhelming position, or if you're too lazy to look it all up and construct a solid counter, no worries!!! Just pick out the "personal" parts and make it seem like your opponent is doing nothing more than making an ad hominem attack on you!!!

This will at once infuriate your opponent, as he'll see that you've given his position not even the respect of a valid response, and will raise the eyebrows of others, making the dullards believe that your opponent is a jerk, and making mods think it may be time to shut down the discussion, in which case you've ended the debate with a one-line zinger, and for all intents and purposes, have won!!!

[apk919]

Originally Posted by smoseley

Debating 101, with Steve Moseley:

Desperation

What is Desperation?

If you're unable to prove your point, change your opponents words and declare victory!

Hey, you're right! It works!

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by apk919

Can I just substitute random phrases in your posts to make them less credible too?
It looks like fun!

Speak-a-dee English? The "little green men with horns" statement was a referebce I brought up a couple pages ago, illustrating my stance that the belief in the physical incarnation of spirits (demons, Satan, etc.) isn't as "normal" as you would have us believe.

Maybe if you would take the time to actually read everything you reply to, you wouldn't get so lost... don't blame me for your lazy ass Cliff Notes debate style.

Originally Posted by apk919

I think I'll stick to the threads and posters who have something interesting to say about Lotus cars. The "Alice In Wonderland" debating style here is entertaining, but not informative.

Debate is supposed to be "informative"? It's competition! The only thing you should expect to be informed of is that you got your ass handed to you by me!

[apk919]

Originally Posted by smoseley

Speak-a-dee English? The "little green men with horns" statement was a referebce I brought up a couple pages ago, illustrating my stance that the belief in the physical incarnation of spirits (demons, Satan, etc.) isn't as "normal" as you would have us believe.

Maybe if you would take the time to actually read everything you reply to, you wouldn't get so lost... don't blame me for your lazy ass Cliff Notes debate style.

Debate is supposed to be "informative"? It's competition! The only thing you should expect to be informed of is that you got your ass handed to you by me!

You really have quite an active imagination. You've been spanked! Now pull up your pants and stand in the corner!

Now, enough of this childishness and back to some actual Lotus content (do you know what that is?)

[smoseley]

Originally Posted by apk919

Hey, you're right!

Thank you for finally conceding and admitting defeat.

Now that you've substantially derailed the thread, I guess all that's left is for you to respond to your real opponent, glb (whose post you're trying to sidestep by playing with me):

Originally Posted by glb

Bad decision-making is a personality trait that doesn't go away in 4 yrs. Moreover, I'm sure that 90+% of McCain supporters voted for Bush. Would you fellows care to share this info?




Is it not relevant that McPain wants to extend the same bad policies?




I've not lost one yet. There is an amorphous feeling among many of you that somehow Bush hasn't been as bad as reality and numbers indicate.

So, I've repeatedly called your bluffs...but NO ONE can come up with a list. Gee, why do you think that might be?



Uh, yes. Maybe you should look again at what I wrote, read a couple of papers, listen to a non-Fox station. Are you claiming that what I wrote was not true? (Kerry said only that he voted for the war before changing his mind. BFD.)



1. Wrong still and again. As per the GAO, the tax cuts are about 65% of the deficit.

2. You are now in the frying pan: The Republican admin spends money as if they/we had it. Bush vetoed exactly one spending bill in 7.5 yrs.

So, they can't bring money in, only shovel it out. Do you wish to maintain that this is good policy?

Are you happy with the deficit and debt for which your grandkids may still be paying?




Um...that Was an example. He spoke at Falwell's school, praised the other religious right a-hole. Google this if you like; it's been all over the (non-Fox) news.




So, when Kerry does it, it's flipping and when McCain does it, it's an "adjustment"? See any inconsistency here?

McCain's done more about-faces than a platoon of bobbleheads on a lazy susan. (I wish I could think of a better analogy...)



A number of people say they heard him say this.



Where did I claim we should become communists? You are avoiding the central part of this issue: Health care, as currently built and as McCain wants, isn't working well in the US. See every other industrialized country. See our low ratings in many health areas (one ex: infant mortality). No country such as ours should have so many uninsured, so many kids unable to get care, such high costs that our businesses cannot compete.




Obama and Clinton can pay for much of this by rescinding the tax cuts that McCain NOW wants to make permanent. Eliminating the Iraq war costs would really help.




Which is not the way we are paying for it now, is it? It's not even part of the budget and adds to the deficit.

Might there be a reason that no one ever cut taxes during a war or two?




I have a feeling you are purposefully missing my points when they become uncomfortable for you.

$18 bill will not - repeat - not pay for what McCain has proposed. So, if he can't bring in any additional funds, what does that do to our debt and deficit?



1. I tutored math.

2. Your answer is glib, but again doesn't address the issue.

The math is: What would 4 yrs of McCain bring our financial well-being.

The answer is: Very negative results. I mean negative in both senses.




I have no idea why you wrote this. Did you have an actual point?




You know about whom I was referring. Have you some proof that either Clinton or Obama know less than McCain. Both Clinton's and McCain's idea to eliminate the gas tax was pandering and exactly the opposite of what's called for.

McCain did admit this, you know. You did know that, right?



I know what McCain and Bush said about not voting for it. Do you? Believe me, the excuse was laughable.



McCain's guy called Catholicism "the great whore". After Obama's guy went blooey, Obama disassociated himself from him.

McCain still backs the "whore" guy.

As an atheist, I find all this amusing.



We are discussing post-hurricane actions here, aren't we? What I said was completely true, but you'd rather switch topics....of course, I would, too, if I were you.



Actually, no. Of the two years, one Democratic senator was in hospital for over 10 months, and Lieberman voted with Republicans.

Moreover, a majority of one doesn't prevent vetoes.

More importantly, look again at this list. Democrats had almost nothing to do with these failed policies.



Wrong yet again. Obama & Clinton have much more defined plans than McCain, including costs and how to pay for them, which McCain does not. Platitudes R McCain.



Why should I? I voted correctly and had you and others done the same, we would be in much better shape (strategically, economically, our standing in the world, etc) and Iran wouldn't have the upper hand in the Middle East.

I can defend my vote. Can you defend yours? I say most of you voted for the worst prez in our history. I did not.




No? McCain has promised to continue failed policies initiated by this administration. The reason McCain will lose big is that 80% of the people will say to themselves "we can't afford 4 more years of these messes".

And, they will be right.



What exactly did you accomplish? You offered no facts, showed a disinclination to engage on actual issues, refuse to believe how our deficit was created, why 80% think are country is going downhill, why this administration has the lowest approval rating in history.

While you were congratulating yourself for "mission accomplished", more of our troops died, we spent 100's of millions, more people lost jobs and homes, more people had to visit ERs for primary health care, the DOJ probably got worse, more of us were spied on, more were tortured and you are OK with all that, right?

Spare us this sophmoric attitude and blind faith in failed policies.

I could say: "Thanks for playing, better luck next time" but won't.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by glb

McCain's guy called Catholicism "the great whore". After Obama's guy went blooey, Obama disassociated himself from him.

McCain still backs the "whore" guy.

As an atheist, I find all this amusing..

i have no idea who said that, and in what context - but based on the info you gave - that is a fairly common biblicaly based comment that many biblical scholars would agree with.

but like i said - i don't know if that guy was taking that biblical prophecy of the (fairly common accepted understanding of the catholic church) being tagged as the whore, out of context or not (and with stuff apocrapyl, context is widely debatable) . but i just wanted to point out that many respected scholars would also make that comment.

whores ain't all that bad though... just their job is bad - and that's also fairly accurate to that biblical reference.

a quick search turned this up
Whore of Babylon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

anyways - that guy may be using it whacky, and public opinion is probably reactionary to that reference, even when reasonably accurate.

[NMRJock]

Originally Posted by smoseley

Debate is supposed to be "infor