In the process of being defrauded on ebay - help needed!!

[Graydon]

This is way off topic, but I've gotten some excellent advice on this board before, so here goes...

I was selling my old iPhone on ebay and the auction ended last Saturday. I looked to see who had won, and it was someone from Thailand. At first I was very hesitant because of the high shipping rates overseas as well as the "fraud flag" going up in my head. I checked UPS & FedEx for shipping, both over $100. Then I checked USPS, and their cheapest option of First Class International was only about $14. I read up on their site that insurance was free for the first $100, then a dollar more for each extra $100. Since it sold for a little over $300, I could ship & insure it for $16, and track it in case anything went wrong.

So I instructed the buyer to pay through Paypal, which in over 100 transactions I've had nothing but the best of luck with. He pays very quickly, and I receive an email stating "NOTICE OF PAYMENT RECEIVED - PLEASE SHIP ITEM" (apparently even their caps lock gets stuck from time to time). The email does say that they have put a hold on the funds, and that it's a new policy not to release the funds until the buyer receives the item. This makes me a little suspicious, so I call Paypal about it. The lady on the phone says yep, the funds are good, and as long as I upload the tracking number into Paypal, they will release the funds to me upon delivery regardless of what the buyer says.

At this point I'm a little worried, but I figure I have plenty of backup in case someone is trying to screw me:
1. Shipping insurance - even if the buyer claims it's lost I'll get $300
2. Paypal has verified the funds, never had any problems before
3. Tracking # - no matter what the buyer tries to claim Paypal will release the funds and/or I'll get the insurance.
4. All this time, the buyer has been extremely responsive to all my emails, giving me a little more confidence.

So, on Tuesday I went to the post office & shipped it out. Come to find out, on the cheapest international rate you can't get insurance. Crap. I ponder it for a few seconds, then pressured by an "ahem" or two from the people waiting in line behind me, I shipped it figuring as long as I uploaded the tracking number to Paypal they wouldn't let me get screwed. I should also mention I recently saw an article on digg.com that said Paypal was now refunding shoppers who were defrauded on ebay.

When I get home that night I see an email from Paypal saying - wait for it - there has been an inquiry into the transaction due to possible fraudulent funds. I respond to their email with all the pertinent information, and even call them up. They say its just an inquiry, they need to resolve the issue. I ask if I should try to stop the shipment, and they say yes. I tried calling USPS, and they say I have to go into the post office and fill out a 1509 form. First thing the next morning, I go into the post office, but they say there's almost no way to stop an international shipment that went first class (the cheapest rate). They work on it for an hour while I was there, and I told them I had to get back to work & left them my number. 2 hours later, they call me up saying no luck. To top it all off, the tracking number I have is only a customs number, and in 3 days the only thing that it has produced through USPS's tracking tool is that it was accepted at the post office where I shipped it. They conveniently didn't mention that when I shipped the phone. Now I hear that the initial acceptance may be the only thing that ever shows up in the tracking tool because it's going overseas. Uh-oh.

So I get back on the phone with Paypal & tell them I can't stop the shipment and ask if there's anything else I can do. They say no, it will take 7 days for their "fraud committee" to come to a decision, which isn't looking good.

So basically this guy is going to get an iPhone and I'm most likely going to get nothing in return.

Any suggestions?

The only thing I can come up with is an article I read about a while ago about another ebay fraud with a buyer in London. The seller in the US posted it somewhere on the internets, and someone from London caught wind of it & decided to help out. They tracked down the buyer's address & confronted the buyer/intercepted the shipment. Anyone have a friend in Bangkok, Thailand?

Any help is much appreciated.

-Graydon

[qball]

First rule of e-bay... only ship to continental US

[Graydon]

Originally Posted by qball

First rule of e-bay... only ship to continental US

Yep, I know that now.

[CertifiedCC]

also any1 know about buying from out of U.S. like from china?

[...m...]

...second rule of ebay: never ship until the money is completely clear in your own bank account...

...third rule of ebay: always insure shipments, no exceptions - it's a trivial matter to include actual shipping costs in the transaction...

...fourth rule of ebay: if ebay's new anti-seller policies preclude following any of these rules, take your business elsewhere...

...i actually conducted quite a few honest international transactions in the first few years of the service, but the incidence of of advance-fee frauds has since grown far too high, leaving the service nearly-unusable for individual sellers, and ebay has no real reason to care as the overwhelming majority of their business these days is through bulk liquidators...i wish i knew a fix for your situation, but short of filing every fraud claim you can, i fear you're out of luck...

[Graydon]

Originally Posted by ...m...

...second rule of ebay: never ship until the money is completely clear in your own bank account...

...third rule of ebay: always insure shipments, no exceptions - it's a trivial matter to include actual shipping costs in the transaction...

...fourth rule of ebay: if ebay's new anti-seller policies preclude following any of these rules, take your business elsewhere...

...i actually conducted quite a few honest international transactions in the first few years of the service, but the incidence of of advance-fee frauds has since grown far too high, leaving the service nearly-unusable for individual sellers, and ebay has no real reason to care as the overwhelming majority of their business these days is through bulk liquidators...i wish i knew a fix for your situation, but short of filing every fraud claim you can, i fear you're out of luck...

All of this is great advice, and I know now. I tried to insure the shipment based on info from the website, but when I got to the post office they said I could only get insurance on a much more expensive shipping method ($60 vs. $14). I guess my only hope now is making a friend in Bangkok.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by Graydon

This is way off topic, but I've gotten some excellent advice on this board before, so here goes...

I was selling my old iPhone on ebay and the auction ended last Saturday. I looked to see who had won, and it was someone from Thailand. At first I was very hesitant because of the high shipping rates overseas as well as the "fraud flag" going up in my head. I checked UPS & FedEx for shipping, both over $100. Then I checked USPS, and their cheapest option of First Class International was only about $14. I read up on their site that insurance was free for the first $100, then a dollar more for each extra $100. Since it sold for a little over $300, I could ship & insure it for $16, and track it in case anything went wrong.

So I instructed the buyer to pay through Paypal, which in over 100 transactions I've had nothing but the best of luck with. He pays very quickly, and I receive an email stating "NOTICE OF PAYMENT RECEIVED - PLEASE SHIP ITEM" (apparently even their caps lock gets stuck from time to time). The email does say that they have put a hold on the funds, and that it's a new policy not to release the funds until the buyer receives the item. This makes me a little suspicious, so I call Paypal about it. The lady on the phone says yep, the funds are good, and as long as I upload the tracking number into Paypal, they will release the funds to me upon delivery regardless of what the buyer says.

At this point I'm a little worried, but I figure I have plenty of backup in case someone is trying to screw me:
1. Shipping insurance - even if the buyer claims it's lost I'll get $300
2. Paypal has verified the funds, never had any problems before
3. Tracking # - no matter what the buyer tries to claim Paypal will release the funds and/or I'll get the insurance.
4. All this time, the buyer has been extremely responsive to all my emails, giving me a little more confidence.

So, on Tuesday I went to the post office & shipped it out. Come to find out, on the cheapest international rate you can't get insurance. Crap. I ponder it for a few seconds, then pressured by an "ahem" or two from the people waiting in line behind me, I shipped it figuring as long as I uploaded the tracking number to Paypal they wouldn't let me get screwed. I should also mention I recently saw an article on digg.com that said Paypal was now refunding shoppers who were defrauded on ebay.

When I get home that night I see an email from Paypal saying - wait for it - there has been an inquiry into the transaction due to possible fraudulent funds. I respond to their email with all the pertinent information, and even call them up. They say its just an inquiry, they need to resolve the issue. I ask if I should try to stop the shipment, and they say yes. I tried calling USPS, and they say I have to go into the post office and fill out a 1509 form. First thing the next morning, I go into the post office, but they say there's almost no way to stop an international shipment that went first class (the cheapest rate). They work on it for an hour while I was there, and I told them I had to get back to work & left them my number. 2 hours later, they call me up saying no luck. To top it all off, the tracking number I have is only a customs number, and in 3 days the only thing that it has produced through USPS's tracking tool is that it was accepted at the post office where I shipped it. They conveniently didn't mention that when I shipped the phone. Now I hear that the initial acceptance may be the only thing that ever shows up in the tracking tool because it's going overseas. Uh-oh.

So I get back on the phone with Paypal & tell them I can't stop the shipment and ask if there's anything else I can do. They say no, it will take 7 days for their "fraud committee" to come to a decision, which isn't looking good.

So basically this guy is going to get an iPhone and I'm most likely going to get nothing in return.

Any suggestions?

The only thing I can come up with is an article I read about a while ago about another ebay fraud with a buyer in London. The seller in the US posted it somewhere on the internets, and someone from London caught wind of it & decided to help out. They tracked down the buyer's address & confronted the buyer/intercepted the shipment. Anyone have a friend in Bangkok, Thailand?

Any help is much appreciated.

-Graydon

I just sold something on ebay, and clearly stated in the listing that I do not ship outside the US. A guy in Germany bid and won anyway. I told him that I listed I would not ship outside the US, and therefore would relist the item. A day or two later he sent me the address of a friend in the US.

I said ok, but Paypal must be used, and payment cleared.

I got a notice from PayPal that payment had been made, but NOT cleared, and the notice from Paypal and on my paypal site ADVISED ME TO NOT SHIP THE ITEM UNTIL PAYMENT CLEARED.

It upset the buyer a bit that I didn't ship as soon as he made PayPal payment, but told him it doesn't get shipped until PayPal has confirmed receipt of funds. That was that.

Took about 5 days, but eventually got the standard notice from PayPal that they have confirmed and received funds and that they are ready to disperse to me.

Package will now be shipped.

Long story short...PayPal told me to NOT ship it until they have confirmed the funds.

[Graydon]

That's interesting, because I received an email from paypal with bold, all-caps "NOTICE OF PAYMENT RECEIVED - PLEASE SHIP ITEM". I even called them to verify. Had I received the notice that you got, I wouldn't have shipped until the funds had cleared.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by Graydon

That's interesting, because I received an email from paypal with bold, all-caps "NOTICE OF PAYMENT RECEIVED - PLEASE SHIP ITEM". I even called them to verify. Had I received the notice that you got, I wouldn't have shipped until the funds had cleared.

Below is the exact wording cut and past from my transaction activity page on PayPal, while the payment was still in the unconfirmed/pending status:

"Status: Pending
This payment is still pending. In case you are shipping an item please wait until the payment is completed."

He had made payment to Paypal, but Paypal had yet to confirm the funds.

Did what I was told. Wouldn't have shipped the item otherwise.

[Chris Mackey]

Have a beer and ponder the lesson to be learned. In fact, have 6 beers.

[SweetDaddyD]

I read your post and have had enough experiences to say- sorry dude- you are screwed.
There is no way to prove delivery to him and paypal has no reason to release funds to you because you won't be able to confirm delivery with a working international delivery confirmation number. I've been burned as a seller and a buyer with them. The same thing if you are buying a product and it is junk or DOA you claim you never received it, and they won't be able to prove you did. If you file a dispute claiming anything else, then you have to prove you returned it to them for paypal to issue you a refund, and you can't do that. I think a lot of foreign e-bay users just now how to use the paypal system to screw people over. Yep, basically don't buy or sell anything out of the country. It's a crapshoot.

[JoshS]

Originally Posted by Graydon

That's interesting, because I received an email from paypal with bold, all-caps "NOTICE OF PAYMENT RECEIVED - PLEASE SHIP ITEM". I even called them to verify. Had I received the notice that you got, I wouldn't have shipped until the funds had cleared.

As far as I can see you are not screwed. If you truly have an e-mail that says the above, sue them in small claims court, they will have an agent for service in your state, check with your state's business portal web site. There's a cost for them to send an employee to fight you in court. They will absolutely settle with you for that cost. But, what do they say in court. "Yes, we sent him a confirmation that we recieved the money, but we really didn't." "Yes, we told him to ship the order, but we really didn't mean "SHIP" the order." You tell me if there's any story your LOCAL court will believe that goes contrary to your e-mail. I think you have a slam dunk here.

[SweetDaddyD]

Originally Posted by JoshS

As far as I can see you are not screwed. If you truly have an e-mail that says the above, sue them in small claims court, they will have an agent for service in your state, check with your state's business portal web site. There's a cost for them to send an employee to fight you in court. They will absolutely settle with you for that cost. But, what do they say in court. "Yes, we sent him a confirmation that we recieved the money, but we really didn't." "Yes, we told him to ship the order, but we really didn't mean "SHIP" the order." You tell me if there's any story your LOCAL court will believe that goes contrary to your e-mail. I think you have a slam dunk here.

He can ship it, but if the guy in (insert country outside the US here, which the USPS will not provide any delivery confirmation to his address) claims he never got it, the seller will be out his item and his money. If paypal has given it to him at that time they will take it back away once their "investigation" is complete and has no proof of delivery.

[Graydon]

Good info guys, thanks. JoshS - I think I will try small claims court, it's worth a shot & good experience regardless.

I think I'm going to assume its a lost cause & treat it as a valuable lesson, and if for some reason small claims court works that's icing on the cake.

[ZTEC]

Welcome to PayPalSucks.com, PayPal Lawsuit, PayPal Alternative, PayPal Complaints, Fraud & Evil behind the PayPal system!
There is some good info on this site once you get past the BS!
Good Luck

[Conan]

Originally Posted by ZTEC

Welcome to PayPalSucks.com, PayPal Lawsuit, PayPal Alternative, PayPal Complaints, Fraud & Evil behind the PayPal system!
There is some good info on this site once you get past the BS!
Good Luck

Wow. There's some scary stuff on there. I wonder how prevalent those types of stories really are.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by JoshS

As far as I can see you are not screwed. If you truly have an e-mail that says the above, sue them in small claims court, they will have an agent for service in your state, check with your state's business portal web site. There's a cost for them to send an employee to fight you in court. They will absolutely settle with you for that cost. But, what do they say in court. "Yes, we sent him a confirmation that we recieved the money, but we really didn't." "Yes, we told him to ship the order, but we really didn't mean "SHIP" the order." You tell me if there's any story your LOCAL court will believe that goes contrary to your e-mail. I think you have a slam dunk here.

u want him to sue "paypal" in small claims court over 300 dollars?
good luck with that.

[mp3moose]

First rule of ebay: Don't use ebay.

Your money and phone are gone. Sorry, but that's what ebay/paypal has become.

[JoshS]

Originally Posted by SweetDaddyD

He can ship it, but if the guy in (insert country outside the US here, which the USPS will not provide any delivery confirmation to his address) claims he never got it, the seller will be out his item and his money. If paypal has given it to him at that time they will take it back away once their "investigation" is complete and has no proof of delivery.

If it were a claim for $3,000 yes. But, if you will reread my post, it will not be worth them sending out an employee for a full day, transportation, meals, etc. What, you think they want to teach him a lesson at possibly $500 or more their cost? Plus, it's the buyer that has to deny he received it, you think the guy that just commited fraud is calling Pay-pal to deny it. Graydon has another e-mail stating that pay-pal is looking into that fraud charge, that's an admission on their part that they believe the product was delivered and the judge will believe that, also.

u want him to sue "paypal" in small claims court over 300 dollars?
good luck with that.

No, what he wants to do is give pay-pal a 30 day notice, then file the papers in small claims court, then wait for them to send the check or offer a settlement. If you think $300 is too small an amount than a person should bother themselves over, do you think a large corporation like pay-pal is going to fly a representive out or hire a firm to represent them in small claims court?

Here's a line from someone who sued them in small claims court that I lifted off PayPalSucks.com

Trial was held on 10/20/2004. PayPal did not appear for the trial. It appeared that the expense of sending someone from San Jose to Los Angeles did not appeal to them.

Great job Ztec for finding that site. Graydon, when you send them your 30 day notice send them the copy of the guy who filed against them so they know you are not playing games. They will probably still go through denying the venue, so you will get a notice from Small Claims court, just file the same stuff this guy did even though it's from another state, it's small claims court they don't expect you to be a lawyer, just say you spoke to a lawyer and he said Jersey has similar laws in this matter.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by JoshS

If it were a claim for $3,000 yes. But, if you will reread my post, it will not be worth them sending out an employee for a full day, transportation, meals, etc. What, you think they want to teach him a lesson at possibly $250 or more their cost? Plus, it's the buyer that has to deny he received it, you think that guy is calling Pay-pal. Graydon has another e-mail stating that pay-pal is looking into fraud not non-delivery, that's an admission on their part that they believe the product was delivered.

you know what they are going to do before they ever send 1 person out for a day, trans costs, meals, and whatever else?
delay, delay, delay.
is it worth all of graydons time and effort to sue paypal in any court for 300 bucks? i dont know.
he has to do some papaerwork, have documents notarized, filed, etc, then take a day off from work. on top of that he may not win the case. im not sure, but if he doesnt win, is graydon then liable for the defendants court costs?
sorry....that money was stolen fair and square.