Thought some of you might want to sign this petition...

[JUNGLISTluder]

Originally Posted by NomisR

See? Environmentalists are against that too, wind energy kills birds and changes the wind pattern, solar energy takes energy from the sun that otherwise would be absorbed by the earth which causes earth to cool, hydro absorb energy from the waves and changes hibitat for the fish. In other words, they want us to all live in caves and eat raw food. We're not even allowed to start a fire to keep ourselves warm because that creates C02 which is bad..

How would a wind-farm be any more devastating to the wind pattern than any major US city? I think that large buildings block/redirect much more wind that any windmill. And if a bird flies into a windmill, he/she needs to pay more attention to where they are going!

Regarding solar energy cooling the earth, I think that we have enough pavement on this planet absorbing heat emissions from the sun that it would negate any type of cooling effect from solar energy absorbtion.

Hydro energy is a bit more tricky and should be moderated. I don't think we need to dam every river out there, but it is defenitely something to investigate.

I'm all for cavemen eating raw food. Bring it!

[Smoky]

Environmental issues aside (that's not what this topic is about...this topic is about the prices of fuel and how we can mitigate the costs of fuel during our transition away from 100% dependence on oil)...

The problem is not our dependence on foreign oil. The problem is our lack of oil refineries to process the amounts of oil we could be receiving. Our refinery processes have not kept up with demand. Saud et al. would be happy to sell us all the oil we need.. we just can't process it fast enough to turn around fuel, plastics, etc.

The tree-hugger effect should help to mitigate demand temporarily. And although I agree we do need to tap our own resource pools (not only in oil, but also in manufacturing and agriculture....keep the jobs HERE!!!), this is not the primary cause of our (and other country's) rising fuel costs.

[apk919]

Originally Posted by JUNGLISTluder

How would a wind-farm be any more devastating to the wind pattern than any major US city? I think that large building block/redirect much more wind that any windmill. And if a bird flies into a windmill, he/she needs to pay more attention to where they are going!

And yet potential injuries to birds is a major reason why wind farm projects have been blocked in the past

Wind turbine kills red kite

Environmental, Health, and Safety Guidelines for Wind Energy

Sometimes I think hard core greenies just want us to return to the hunter-gatherer lifestyle... I wish they'd lead by example!!!

[mcoupe]

Why do we complain about $5 a gallon when Europe has been paying almost double that for years! They drive much smaller cars and over half drive diesel cars. What we need is not wasting more but curbing usage. Tapping into more resources is fine as long as we curb usage rather than saying to consumers go ahead we have more!

Stop people from driving useless SUVs and trucks. As a country we just need to change our consuption habits from oil to everything else. The only way people change is when it hits their wallet. I am far from the the green radicals but with other countries like China, India fighting for the same resources we have no choice but be less wasteful.

On another note, $5 a gallon is darn cheap for fuel when you consider what it takes to bring it into our cars. Funny how we do not hear people scream about the outrageous prices consumers are charged for phone services, cell phones, cosmetics, cable etc...Now those prices are ridiculous.

Oh by the way, China has lifted subsidies. That will bring oil prices down in the short term!

My 2 pennies!

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by JUNGLISTluder

I'm all for cavemen eating raw food. Bring it!

x2!

The Story of Stuff with Annie Leonard

[Flash G]

I'm all for drilling in ANWAR. Do you realize that the area at ANWAR that would be drilled is only about the size of Reagan National Airport?

I think with today's technology, you can drill safely there and not upset the Caribou or whatever they're called.

As for off shore drilling, if they're far enough off the coast so you can't see them from the shore... have at it.


.

[II-soon]

Originally Posted by John Stimson

Nice short-sighted, band-aid solution. Not partisan really, just stupid.

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000

[Green Ghost]

Resources are not peaking, were just not getting/using them. The planet is not going anywhere, and if you want to pretend you are saving the planet, get a sail/row boat, and cruse off Cuba to stop China and Cuba from drilling for oil. China and Cuba have no problem getting oil not far off the cost of Florida. How come its only when US companies want to do something that congress and crystal worshiping tree huggers have a problem.

I for one trust US and European companies to do a cleaner job of doing something then any other country especially a communist country. US companies we have some control over, and don’t have active government endorsement to poison stuff, like China with toys, dog food, people food, stuff going down any river to the ocean….

If using 40 acres for a power plant is a scar on the planets surface (a cover of a national geographic) then using a 100 acres for windmills (that produce far less power) in the same place is what?

Gas is one of the cleanest and economical fuels there is. We just need to burn it the right way. As in keep your engine tuned and tight. If it starts burning oil or such, fix it.

There are a lot of weird/funny religions out there (if you are in one and like it, good for you and stay there), How come global warmest’s don’t realize that their in one too.

A real help for the economy and environment, recycle your plastic, metals, paper, and batteries.

I signed it

Kevin

[NomisR]

Originally Posted by JUNGLISTluder

How would a wind-farm be any more devastating to the wind pattern than any major US city? I think that large buildings block/redirect much more wind that any windmill. And if a bird flies into a windmill, he/she needs to pay more attention to where they are going!

Regarding solar energy cooling the earth, I think that we have enough pavement on this planet absorbing heat emissions from the sun that it would negate any type of cooling effect from solar energy absorbtion.

Hydro energy is a bit more tricky and should be moderated. I don't think we need to dam every river out there, but it is defenitely something to investigate.

I'm all for cavemen eating raw food. Bring it!

I'm not saying it makes sense, it's all really stupid in my opinion and I agree with you. But they're complained about all of those stuff. Like I said, they want us to live like cavemen.

Now where's my club so I can go club me a woman..

[NomisR]

Here's another thing about oil prices

Oil settles below $135 after OPEC questions prices

By ADAM SCHRECK, AP Business Writer 49 minutes ago

NEW YORK - Oil prices pulled back Friday after OPEC questioned whether crude can remain so high and the dollar gained against the euro. Meanwhile, U.S. filling station operators pushed average gas prices deeper into record territory.
Light, sweet crude for July delivery fell $1.88 to settle at $134.86 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

In its monthly market report, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries said oil's recent volatility "reconfirms the view that current price levels do not reflect supply and demand realities."

The cartel also lowered its 2008 global demand forecast, saying it now expects demand to increase by 1.28 percent to an average of 86.9 million barrels per day, down from a previous forecast of 1.35 percent.

"A review of prospects for the remainder of the year also shows little support for prices to remain at current levels," OPEC said.

That downward revision follows similar moves by the U.S. Energy Department and the International Energy Agency earlier in the week.

Phil Flynn, an analyst at Alaron Trading Corp. in Chicago, said the revised forecasts suggest global demand for oil is slowing. That trend could accelerate, he added, if prices don't come down soon.

"It's a sign that maybe the bull run could come to an end. You don't want to say that for sure, but you're starting to see some shifts," Flynn said.

Oil prices were also pressured by speculation that Saudi Arabia may boost production following a report in the Middle East Economic Survey, an industry publication.

Crude prices have fluctuated widely since they surged nearly $11 in a single session to a trading record above $139 a week ago. The price for a barrel has swung back and forth in a $10 band since then.

Some investors believe prices could yet push higher. Analysts call oil's current wavering "range-trading," as traders await direction from a significant move in the dollar or change in supply-and-demand fundamentals.

"There is no driver out there to cause prices to break out of this range yet," said Victor Shum, an energy analyst with Purvin & Gertz in Singapore.

A stronger dollar also helped keep oil prices in check. The greenback gained against the euro after a Labor Department report showed consumer prices rose by the biggest increase since November, helping alleviate concerns that growing inflation could force shoppers to tighten their belts.

Investors who bought commodities such as oil to protect against inflation when the dollar was falling tend to sell when the greenback gains ground. Also, a stronger dollar makes oil more expensive to investors overseas.

At the gas pump, the average national price for a gallon of regular rose to a record $4.066 overnight, from $4.06 a day earlier, according to AAA and the Oil Price Information Service. Diesel also set a new record, rising 0.2 cent to $4.796 a gallon.

The pain from the high cost of fuel is by no means limited to the U.S., where gas and diesel remains far lower than in Europe and some parts of Asia.

Many developing countries, which typically have far lower household incomes, hold food and fuel prices lower through subsidies. But higher commodities costs are forcing some governments to increase those subsidized prices as well.

In Malaysia, more than 1,000 opposition supporters marched through Kuala Lumpur on Friday to protest the government's decision last week to hike retail prices 41 percent to $3.30 a gallon. Demonstrations have also broken out in India.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said soaring food and fuel costs could pose a threat to global stability.

"Unless we properly manage this issue, this could trigger a cascade of other challenges and crises affecting not just social and economic issues, but also political and security issues," Ban said following talks in London with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

In other Nymex trading, July heating oil futures slipped by 10.59 cents to settle at $3.8368 a gallon, and July natural gas futures fell 17.3 cents to settle at $12.625 per 1,000 cubic feet. Gasoline futures settled at $3.4626, down 6.34 cents over Thursday's close.

In London, July Brent crude lost $1.54 to sell for $134.55 on the ICE Futures exchange.

___

Associated Press Writers George Jahn in Vienna, Austria, and Eileen Ng in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, contributed to this report.

I'm waiting for the oil bubble to burst..

[MidasHands]

Darn - there's been so many hits the website is down right now! Over 1 million signatures now.

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by JUNGLISTluder

I'm more along the lines of wind/solar/hydro energy in combination with reduced consumption. Also, the ugly parts of the county are usually like that for a reason....lack of natural resources.

Plus, in the big picture....screw our economy.

Maybe we could add Pixie Dust to that list?

[SweetDaddyD]

I happen to just be driving a lot less and planning my errands more efficiently, not going to the post office every day to ship, etc. As well as taking the motorcycle when I don't need to carry stuff (too bad more SUV drivers didn't do the same since 95% of them seem to have a single person in them hauling nothing other than their fat @ss around) I noticed I had only put 60 miles on this tank of fuel in the car so far. I filled up on Sunday. Not bad considering I used to put that on nearly every day.

The high gas prices suck. But I really do hope they help America be innovative and change our ways. Maybe enough competition will arise now that solar will become affordable, and advancements in fuel cells, hydrogen, etc will be made. It's not like the technology isn't out there. And don't pretend the govt really ever seems to have our best interest in mind. Just putting sensors on traffic lights to time them better could eliminate millions of tons of CO2 released into the air each year. Of course then there is the politics of companies like Texaco buying the patents to electric vehicle batteries and shelving it. (remember the electric RAV 4 several years ago? Texaco sued toyota for $30M after they bought the battery patent from GM and of course an electric Toyota hasn't been produced since- just the inferior (by comparison) Prius)

[Cardinal]

You know, I'd bet if we released some of the US petrol reserve, the extra oil floating around the marketplace would devastate the oil speculators that have helped drive oil prices up. Supply and demand. We could possibly cut prices up for 30%-40% almost instantly.

[Wasabi]

I'm sorry, but any oil we'd be drilling here at home wouldn't have much impact on the world market, you'd be lucky to see the price go down more than a dime or two. People would like to be fooled into thinking that if the US was producing more itself it would drive down gas prices, but oil is traded internationally, this isn't just a US thing no matter how much you'd want it to be, the effect on prices here would be minimal - but a lot of big business would stand to make a lot of money... reminds me of Halliburton getting most of the deals in Iraq, I wonder which oil company would stand to inherit the US market... I just know I'll be investing in that company

Seriously, take an international economics course, it's enlightening. This isn't the savior that is being painted for people, just an opportunity for certain people to make a lot of money. As for the speculators, I highly doubt that the price of oil would be driven down much - anyone remember how just this year Brazil discovered the 4th, and later the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world just off it's coast? The government is putting billions into establishing the means to pump that stuff out, and all the while the price of oil in the market has been growing... future prices, pfft...

I'm not saying we shouldn't drill though, so long as it's done in an environmentally friendly way, and we should limit just how much can be done I think. There's more than economics at play, this country may find itself in a position down the road where we need to be able to get into our own oil reserves and fast, and if we don't have the infastructure in place

[Cardinal]

Originally Posted by Wasabi

Seriously, take an international economics course, it's enlightening. This isn't the savior that is being painted for people, just an opportunity for certain people to make a lot of money. As for the speculators, I highly doubt that the price of oil would be driven down much - anyone remember how just this year Brazil discovered the 4th, and later the 2nd largest oil reserve in the world just off it's coast? The government is putting billions into establishing the means to pump that stuff out, and all the while the price of oil in the market has been growing... future prices, pfft...

Yes, they found a massive oil reserve. However, I recall reading that they are not legally allowed to drill that part of the ocean. Therefore, it doesn't do anyone any good. I will try to try confirmation of that.

As far as futures, it's a lot of bullchit. Remember the .com boom? Granted, there will probably be more demand in the future for oil than hotornot.com or whatever other garbage websites are out there, but still, it's a gamble. It's not guaranteed. I also think we could certainly drive prices down by exploring REALISTIC fuel alternatives.

If we tapped the ground here safely, we could be much more self-reliant. I believe self-reliance is key. Now, if we only had the facilities to refine what we pump out, we'd really be in business.

[Monsi]

we can keep driving gasoline cars but we need to crack the whip on synthesized gasoline/diesel(los alamos is claiming 2013 for a commercially available product

since it pulls carbon from the atmosphere it has a net 0 carbon impact... however we also need to start pulling carbon from the environment and stuffing it back underground from whence it came

[nak]

Originally Posted by SweetDaddyD

The high gas prices suck. But I really do hope they help America be innovative and change our ways. Maybe enough competition will arise now that solar will become affordable, and advancements in fuel cells, hydrogen, etc will be made. It's not like the technology isn't out there. And don't pretend the govt really ever seems to have our best interest in mind. Just putting sensors on traffic lights to time them better could eliminate millions of tons of CO2 released into the air each year. Of course then there is the politics of companies like Texaco buying the patents to electric vehicle batteries and shelving it. (remember the electric RAV 4 several years ago? Texaco sued toyota for $30M after they bought the battery patent from GM and of course an electric Toyota hasn't been produced since- just the inferior (by comparison) Prius)

I did the back of the envelope numbers in another thread. The upshot is that rooftop mounted solar is cheaper as a fuel than $4.00 gas. I used the power capacity and range of a Tesla and compared it to $4.00 gas in a 25 MPG car. For the fuel cost, over 20 years, rooftop solar is a cheaper fuel. There are not enough electric cars out there to make a wide set of comparisons with.

[JoshS]

Originally Posted by frostylocks

i see fewer and fewer reptiles and amphibians from years ago. .

yeah! When's the last time you saw a dinosaur or a wooly mammoth?