Tour de France

[Kjakk]

I know why they do it, but I still hate that there is so much focus on Lance when there are 170+ other cyclists in the race. I respect what he has done but I cant say that I am a Lance fan. I prefer to watch the all out, high speed, high power, sprinting with Cavendish, Boonen and Hushovd, etc. That is intense. I think Levi will win it all though. He is going to play it cool and stay under the radar and let all the other favorites duke it out.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by cstetter

Sorry for being so cynical but the man with the best (undetectable) doping will win.

Professional cycling has become a caricature of itself.

if you were to subject any other mainstream sport to the level and detail of testing, and impose the same suspension to teams and athletes - that sport would be utterly detroyed. the fact that cycling thrives under ~10x greater testing and suspension is amazing.

baseball? ....now that is a caricature and a complete embarasement to profession athletes - those guys should not even be called athletes. complete farce!

[paulhastings]

I think Astana has a few work horses for the mountains and at the end of the day it's man against man in the mountains. I think Contador and Armstrong will get to ride it out in the first 1 -2 mountain stages without jepordizing the teams overall aspirations of taking the entire podium. However, as I said before I think it would be very cool to see Lance do it but, I do beleive Contador is going to fly up the mountains.

[kgalgas]

Originally Posted by mopho

Lance looked like he was hurting at the end of the team time trial yesterday, but it seems he held on to his overall position today. Friday will be a test for sure

How won't he be hurting after taking more turns at the front, and taking longer pulls through the technical sections of the TTT.

He is lighter than he has been in previous tours, and his appears to be having more fun and not under the same pressure. One of his tricks in the earlier tours in the mountain stages was to act like he was suffering and let the contenders think they cracked him. I do not think he can use this again, but uses his age and fact he was away from racing for four years. Based upon yesterday performance, he appears to the official or unofficial leader of the Astana. The media is trying the pull the answer from Bruynel, Levi, Lance, and they are not showing their hand. In reality this is a good strategy as the other teams do not know who to target, chase down, etc. Bruynel let Lance break away with Columbia on Monday, and left Contador in second peloton, moving Lance from 10th to 3rd. Lance does not have the same ego he had before, and is in the race for other reasons, but if he is in yellow for a stage(s) or riding into Paris that is icing on the cake. He is back doing something he love to do and getting yellow is an added bonus.

The race is not about who is the best TT, spriter, or climber, but rather who is the best all around GC contender. There has to be something said about experience, and time spend on the bike. Making stupid mistakes, letting your guard down, lack of nutrient or hydration, can take you out of the race.

[Implosion]

Agreed. Astana is playing the media like a fiddle. I would expect that they will be shoulder to shoulder regardless of who is on top of the podium in Paris.

That said, my money is on Contador. Reasoning? Contador is 11 years junior to Lance. And, since winning in 2007, and widely being recognized as a weak time trialist, what is he wearing in the time trials? The national time trial champion colors of Spain. That sounds like something that a young LA would do: weakness identified, weakness demolished.

Don't think it will be a route, but I think he'll pip them in the end. Wouldn't be surprised if they send LA early in the hills, though, to give him the yellow for a bit and to force the other teams to use the last scraps of their reserves.

I am, however, a little concerned that my gf is in love w/ Mark Cavendish...

[cstetter]

Originally Posted by fitfan

if you were to subject any other mainstream sport to the level and detail of testing, and impose the same suspension to teams and athletes - that sport would be utterly detroyed. the fact that cycling thrives under ~10x greater testing and suspension is amazing.

baseball? ....now that is a caricature and a complete embarasement to profession athletes - those guys should not even be called athletes. complete farce!

It's just sad that one almost cannot be seriously competitive without some "help". I guess we could extend my statements to almost every professional sport, though

I agree with your statements about baseball BTW.

[over40]

Originally Posted by kgalgas

How won't he be hurting after taking more turns at the front, and taking longer pulls through the technical sections of the TTT.

He is lighter than he has been in previous tours, and his appears to be having more fun and not under the same pressure. One of his tricks in the earlier tours in the mountain stages was to act like he was suffering and let the contenders think they cracked him. I do not think he can use this again, but uses his age and fact he was away from racing for four years. Based upon yesterday performance, he appears to the official or unofficial leader of the Astana. The media is trying the pull the answer from Bruynel, Levi, Lance, and they are not showing their hand. In reality this is a good strategy as the other teams do not know who to target, chase down, etc. Bruynel let Lance break away with Columbia on Monday, and left Contador in second peloton, moving Lance from 10th to 3rd. Lance does not have the same ego he had before, and is in the race for other reasons, but if he is in yellow for a stage(s) or riding into Paris that is icing on the cake. He is back doing something he love to do and getting yellow is an added bonus.

The race is not about who is the best TT, spriter, or climber, but rather who is the best all around GC contender. There has to be something said about experience, and time spend on the bike. Making stupid mistakes, letting your guard down, lack of nutrient or hydration, can take you out of the race.

I agree that Astana is playing the media and the rest of the teams. I think Bruyneel watched last year`s Tour and saw how CSC played the who is our team leader game. Is it one of the Schleck brothers? Is it Sastre? I think they had someone else in yellow for a while too. They only showed there hand when it was too late for anyone to do anything about it.

Something else to consider is what age does to cyclists. The young guys can attack pretty hard, but tend (this is opinion based on observation here) to not have as much endurance, while older riders can`t follow the attacks but can ramp it up to a high level of power and keep it there. So, what we might see in the mountains is Contrador attacking or going with the attacks while Lance waits for the right moment and then does one long hard attack. This is a good combination for Team Astana, which ever tool is right for the situation can be used. After Sastre and Evans and perhaps Vande Velde tire each other out attacking, Lance might just ride by. Or perhaps Astana will have a public blow up where it looks like Lance`s ego is dictating that he is the leader and they start him off at the bottom pulling like a freight train dropping as many as possible then have Contrador attack. Stage 7 the first up hill finish should be exciting to watch.

[designer]

Veetle - View Channel

[Surferjer]

Don't forget that Astana has three more riders in the top 7. It will be very interesting to see their strategy. I hope they let the cream rise to the top, but I doubt that will transpire. First and foremost, they want to win.

[Chococar]

I'll go out on a limb (maybe by myself): I predict Lance will not finish the race.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by Kjakk

I know why they do it, but I still hate that there is so much focus on Lance when there are 170+ other cyclists in the race. I respect what he has done but I cant say that I am a Lance fan. I prefer to watch the all out, high speed, high power, sprinting with Cavendish, Boonen and Hushovd, etc. That is intense. I think Levi will win it all though. He is going to play it cool and stay under the radar and let all the other favorites duke it out.

If not for Lance, many wouldn't even know what the Tour de France is. I think he deserves a little more credit.



I was thinking about how, in such a competitive sport, one man could achieve so much success, and I concluded it's because he has extreme mental toughness and is able to persist and push better than his competitors even when he is fatigued or in pain. How else could he be so successful at this age even?

[lotusland]

Originally Posted by Kjakk

I know why they do it, but I still hate that there is so much focus on Lance when there are 170+ other cyclists in the race. I respect what he has done but I cant say that I am a Lance fan.

Well, in the US you could make that statement about international sports coverage in general. The focus is always on the American contender(s), even though in many cases there are other much more interesting competitors out there -- take the olympics for example.

The coverage on Versus though is pretty good. They don't focus that much on Lance, in fact they do spend a lot of time on Cav, Boonen, and all of the sprinters. Where the focus is on Lance I think it is due to the potential battle for leadership and also for the whole comeback nature of this year's race. I don't really consider myself a fan of Lance either, he is very boring as is Levi. I am rooting for him this year only because of the potential conflict.

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

If not for Lance, many wouldn't even know what the Tour de France is.

That comment only applies to the US of course. And is probably very age-dependent as well. Greg Lemond really cracked the USA open for Tour coverage back in the '80s. There were a lot of interesting figures back then and there were some great years. This was Bob Roll's generation also.

[Kjakk]

I agree that the coverage on Versus itself is great, however all of the lead in ads and Nike commercials with nothing but Lance make for some annoying TV.

[Implosion]

Did Versus cut to a commercial just before Voeckler crossed the line yesterday for anyone else? Wondering if it is local network shenanigans.

[paulhastings]

Alright I have to disagree on the baseball thing having grown up playing the game. For sure the sport has been desimated with illegal substance but, they are certainly athletes. Cyclists are athletes but, mainly endurance not much else to it. For sure, some are better then others in bike handling. Now try and hit a 95 mbh fastball with a round bat! So, certainly not huge on the endurance but, serious eye/hand coordination. The game is not as simple as it may seem. Consider a top hitter fails 70% of the time.

Originally Posted by fitfan

if you were to subject any other mainstream sport to the level and detail of testing, and impose the same suspension to teams and athletes - that sport would be utterly detroyed. the fact that cycling thrives under ~10x greater testing and suspension is amazing.

baseball? ....now that is a caricature and a complete embarasement to profession athletes - those guys should not even be called athletes. complete farce!

[TTP]

Originally Posted by lotusland

Well, in the US you could make that statement about international sports coverage in general.....

That comment only applies to the US of course. And is probably very age-dependent as well. Greg Lemond really cracked the USA open for Tour coverage back in the '80s. There were a lot of interesting figures back then and there were some great years. This was Bob Roll's generation also.

Those were the days. To me, that was the first wave of mainstreaming the sport here in the US, when LeMond and other Americans like Hampsten, Phinney etc. brought US cycling to the forefront due to their successes on European soil.

Yep lots of interesting characters back then. Anyone remember Abdoujaporov? What a monster.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by cstetter

It's just sad that one almost cannot be seriously competitive without some "help". I guess we could extend my statements to almost every professional sport, though

I agree with your statements about baseball BTW.

yup well thats the nature of the world... even tiger woods has artifically altered his vison to "see" golf better than nature intended him too...

sports have rules, players will max out everything and anything allowed under thoose rules.

personally i think as long as it is within the realm or normal healthy masses and constrained, then i don't have a problem (and there is little means to restrict it beyond that). i mean in cycling... vaughters got stung by a bee in the eye and had to drop out because if he took the shot to reduce the swelling so he could see - he would have popped a positive and had to sit out a mandatory 2 year suspension (well, maybe back then it was 1 year?) ...silly! but that how strict cycling is. so he couldn't even do what the normal healthy population would have in that case.

my big beef is the perception that cycling is tainted - when in fact cycling is the shining star and most other sports have such an enormous culture of cheating (like the way cycling was up until ~9 years ago) that the organzations turn a blind eye and let the players get away with realy bad stuff.

i am looking forward to the day when all our professional athletes are held to the same standards that cycling has stepped up to and set the example for others to follow. it may not be perfect, nothing is. but it is by far the best system - the rare individual who 'cheats' gets busted, anyone "implicated - even if not guilty -is voulentary suspended until proven inoccent. sure its possible to mask some more minor doping methods - but no one in professional cycling is able to get away with anything substantial. (you can after all "naturally dope" ..its called altitude training) all thoose drug pushers and doctors have moved onto to soccer, basketball, nascar, etc.. they can't erase the crimes of the past, but they are making a better future.

as a side note. not one single cyclist has every 'won' a challange against a positive test suspected/implicated without proof? out until proven innocent. first positive test, out for 2 years. second positive test -your done! ..just ask that punk tyler hamiltion

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by paulhastings

Alright I have to disagree on the baseball thing having grown up playing the game. For sure the sport has been desimated with illegal substance but, they are certainly athletes. Cyclists are athletes but, mainly endurance not much else to it. For sure, some are better then others in bike handling. Now try and hit a 95 mbh fastball with a round bat! So, certainly not huge on the endurance but, serious eye/hand coordination. The game is not as simple as it may seem. Consider a top hitter fails 70% of the time.

not debating that baseball is a game of skill and cycling is a measure of athletic output. (and why cycling was/is so prone to perfomrnace enhancing drugs, same as tack and field, weight lifting, to an extent, swiming and speedskating as well)

what i mean to say is that drug use (steroid and in competition drug use) is so rampant and untested / no suspensions - even to the point of it not even being a dirty little secret anymore?!? so what i was saying is that the rampant allowance of drug us in (baseball as an example ((because it has fought to ALLOW drug use)) is a discredit to atheletes that perform under rigid controls.

the fact is many baseball star is somewhere in between implicated and positive and or 'ruling overturned' ...its a farce! the commision might as well admit they support drug use by players. thats the reality (put football in the pretty much the same boat)

the resualt is what happens that 40% of the time they do get a hit...

point is - baseball has no reason to be such a laggared in testing and suspension (other than if they were to do it overnight their wouldn't be enough players to take the field) they need to start and walk that long hard road that cycling has, or it will remain as is.

cycling has cut some of its biggest stars - biggest heros thrown out on the street. why can't baseball do the same? - so what if he is hall of fame this or #1 that - test them over and over, and throw them out for 2 years the first time they pop a pos. raid their house, confiscate their medical records, take the doctors to court... thats what the UCI does.

why? other soprts don't care - they put making money first. don't rock the boat, too many people are getting rich off the farce.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by TTP

Those were the days. To me, that was the first wave of mainstreaming the sport here in the US, when LeMond and other Americans like Hampsten, Phinney etc. brought US cycling to the forefront due to their successes on European soil.

Yep lots of interesting characters back then. Anyone remember Abdoujaporov? What a monster.

you know, its wierd - there was a time when cycling was huge in the US - major taylor / turn of the century - then its just died! but continued to rise in the rest of the world.

[paulhastings]

Ok, we are good now!!

I do agree with following cycling. I have stopped watching baseball for the most part as it has lost it's historical comparison's. When 61 home runs in season was the bench mark for decades and then all of the sudden a lead off hitter smacks 50 then 66 and 70 in the same season something is wrong.

Football is interesting with only a 4 game suspension. It almost seems like a risk they deem worth taking.

Originally Posted by fitfan

not debating that baseball is a game of skill and cycling is a measure of athletic output. (and why cycling was/is so prone to perfomrnace enhancing drugs, same as tack and field, weight lifting, to an extent, swiming and speedskating as well)

what i mean to say is that drug use (steroid and in competition drug use) is so rampant and untested / no suspensions - even to the point of it not even being a dirty little secret anymore?!? so what i was saying is that the rampant allowance of drug us in (baseball as an example ((because it has fought to ALLOW drug use)) is a discredit to atheletes that perform under rigid controls.

the fact is many baseball star is somewhere in between implicated and positive and or 'ruling overturned' ...its a farce! the commision might as well admit they support drug use by players. thats the reality (put football in the pretty much the same boat)

the resualt is what happens that 40% of the time they do get a hit...

point is - baseball has no reason to be such a laggared in testing and suspension (other than if they were to do it overnight their wouldn't be enough players to take the field) they need to start and walk that long hard road that cycling has, or it will remain as is.

cycling has cut some of its biggest stars - biggest heros thrown out on the street. why can't baseball do the same? - so what if he is hall of fame this or #1 that - test them over and over, and throw them out for 2 years the first time they pop a pos. raid their house, confiscate their medical records, take the doctors to court... thats what the UCI does.

why? other soprts don't care - they put making money first. don't rock the boat, too many people are getting rich off the farce.