Will Obama reinstate the draft?

[slaughtr]

This is not a partisan post. I'm not interested in bickering. I'm just trying to wrap my arms around what he's trying too say here, especially as a father. Taken from a forum at Colombia University:

"But it's also important that a president speaks to military service as an obligation not just of some, but of many. You know, I traveled, obviously, a lot over the last 19 months. And if you go to small towns, throughout the Midwest or the Southwest or the South, every town has tons of young people who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's not always the case in other parts of the country, in more urban centers. And I think it's important for the president to say, this is an important obligation. If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some."

Transcript: ServiceNation Presidential Forum at Columbia University : Clips & Comment

[Cardinal]

I don't think he means a draft. He's probably talking about "why should the poor fight the rich man's war" or something like that. When he says urban, I don't think inner city ghetto, but rather upscale Manhattan types. You know, "the upper crust."

[lotusforsale]

No, that is not what he's saying, or at least not what he means.

Arguments pro or con to the contrary, barring an invasion on our shores or another world war, there is no going back on the draft. That toothpaste is out of the tube. The same can be said for the abortion issue. There simply is no going back.

What Obama IS saying is anything that will get him elected, that he will not be held accountable for later. As is typical of all politicians.

What we DO know though, is as he is telling people he will end the war in Iraq, is that people that want to hear that stop listening at that point. Listening further, you hear that he doesn't say he's bringing the troops home, he's saying he'll put them in Afghanistan. Which, by the way, is where more US troops died over the summer than in Iraq.

His policy is not to end the war, simply move it a few hundred/thousand miles.

But that's not what people are hearing.

[slaughtr]

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

No, that is not what he's saying, or at least not what he means.

Arguments pro or con to the contrary, barring an invasion on our shores or another world war, there is no going back on the draft. That toothpaste is out of the tube. The same can be said for the abortion issue. There simply is no going back.

What Obama IS saying is anything that will get him elected, that he will not be held accountable for later. As is typical of all politicians.

What we DO know though, is as he is telling people he will end the war in Iraq, is that people that want to hear that stop listening at that point. Listening further, you hear that he doesn't say he's bringing the troops home, he's saying he'll put them in Afghanistan. Which, by the way, is where more US troops died over the summer than in Iraq.

His policy is not to end the war, simply move it a few hundred/thousand miles.

But that's not what people are hearing.

"But it's also important that a president speaks to military service as an obligation not just of some, but of many. ......

.... If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some."



I hope your right, but that's not what it sounds like to me.

[Tracktimeplz]

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

No, that is not what he's saying, or at least not what he means.

Arguments pro or con to the contrary, barring an invasion on our shores or another world war, there is no going back on the draft. That toothpaste is out of the tube. The same can be said for the abortion issue. There simply is no going back.

What Obama IS saying is anything that will get him elected, that he will not be held accountable for later. As is typical of all politicians.

What we DO know though, is as he is telling people he will end the war in Iraq, is that people that want to hear that stop listening at that point. Listening further, you hear that he doesn't say he's bringing the troops home, he's saying he'll put them in Afghanistan. Which, by the way, is where more US troops died over the summer than in Iraq.

His policy is not to end the war, simply move it a few hundred/thousand miles.

But that's not what people are hearing.

He is pulling our troops out of a region where we shouldn't have gone in the first place, and putting them where they should have been all along.

I personally think that we shouldn't have a ground war in Afghanistan, but rather use smart bombs and spec ops to assassinate Taliban and Al-Qaeda leaders. Without proper leadership they can not wage a real war against US interests, and being in their back yard only fans the flames of American hatred.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by Tracktimeplz

He is pulling our troops out of a region where we shouldn't have gone in the first place, and putting them where they should have been all along.

I personally think that we shouldn't have a ground war in Afghanistan, but rather use smart bombs and spec ops to assassinate Taliban and Al-Qaeda leaders. Without proper leadership they can not wage a real war against US interests, and being in their back yard only fans the flames of American hatred.

I respect your perspective, but that is not what Obama says he is going to do. He has indicated that he will commit significant ground troops to that country.

And I think it's a certaintly that special forces and smart bombs HAVE been used as much as is practical all along, that it would not suddenly be a new thing that is not already going on. It simply hasn't, and won't be effective to a decisive end.

Nearly ALL experts say winning a war in Afghanistan is not possible, that at some point negotiation with the Taliban will be required.

The Taliban leaders have said that they will continue their fight indefinitely, and within 30 years the Americans will be gone. They have no problem waiting, because the end in inevitable.

They have a completely different perspective of war, and its timing than we do. Especially on their home turf.

Obama IS rehashing the centuries, ne millenia old argument that armies are largely made up of people of lesser means, and that the privledged largely do not have to give up their children. It's nothing new, not by a long shot. And it is VERY appealing to those he wishes to have vote for him. But saying this during an election in no way means he actually has any intention of him reinstituting the draft. It's just saying what people want to hear.

[Cardinal]

I am glad to know that Obama is making Afghanistan a priority. He has that going for him, at least.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by slaughtr

"But it's also important that a president speaks to military service as an obligation not just of some, but of many. ......

.... If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some."



I hope your right, but that's not what it sounds like to me.

Well, if he DOES try to reinstitue the draft, that would be great. Even the new Democratic super majority in the legislature will abandon him on that one, in a heartbeat. Guaranteeing his being a one termer on that issue alone, and fracturing what will otherwise be a very scary government wherein the Dems have the White House and a supermajority.

So, from that perspective, I hope he goes for it.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by Cardinal

I am glad to know that Obama is making Afghanistan a priority. He has that going for him, at least.

It's been a priority many times over the centuries for many empires and conquerors, the most recent being the Soviet Union.

All have met the same fate, no reason to think it would end otherwise for us.

It would be to him what Iraq has been to Bush.

[MattG]

The president doesn't have the power to reinstate the draft, right? It'd be Congress. Merely by posting the subject line that you did IS a partisan post designed to create negative opinions about Obama and, frankly, to create fear in people's minds. It's a disgusting political tactic that the Republicans have been using way too much in this campaign.

Besides, I think a draft is a fantastic idea, for one reason: it makes ALL of us much more involved with war and death and is more likely to encourage intelligent, thoughtful debate before any military action is taken. Right now, most Americans are detached from the military actions, there's no direct personal consequences. Change that around so that it could be their son or daughter sent off to die, and there will be a LOT more oversight of the actions of our government, I guarantee you.

[Tracktimeplz]

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

I respect your perspective, but that is not what Obama says he is going to do. He has indicated that he will commit significant ground troops to that country.

And I think it's a certaintly that special forces and smart bombs HAVE been used as much as is practical all along, that it would not suddenly be a new thing that is not already going on. It simply hasn't, and won't be effective to a decisive end.

There is no end, we can only hope to cripple their ability to inflict harm on our people or interests, without competent leadership it will be damn near impossible to launch any sort of organized attack that could penetrate our security.

Nearly ALL experts say winning a war in Afghanistan is not possible, that at some point negotiation with the Taliban will be required.

The Taliban leaders have said that they will continue their fight indefinitely, and within 30 years the Americans will be gone. They have no problem waiting, because the end in inevitable.

They have a completely different perspective of war, and its timing than we do. Especially on their home turf.

Exactly, so why put ground forces there to be fodder to their martyrdom? We need to instill trust with the people there so they arent preaching hate to every new generation. Time is the only cure for an idealistic hatred such as this.

[slaughtr]

Originally Posted by MattG

The president doesn't have the power to reinstate the draft, right? It'd be Congress. Merely by posting the subject line that you did IS a partisan post designed to create negative opinions about Obama and, frankly, to create fear in people's minds. It's a disgusting political tactic that the Republicans have been using way too much in this campaign.

Besides, I think a draft is a fantastic idea, for one reason: it makes ALL of us much more involved with war and death and is more likely to encourage intelligent, thoughtful debate before any military action is taken. Right now, most Americans are detached from the military actions, there's no direct personal consequences. Change that around so that it could be their son or daughter sent off to die, and there will be a LOT more oversight of the actions of our government, I guarantee you.

I guess we will just agree to disagree whether I'm partisan or disgusting for asking a question, but thanks for your thoughts.

One of the reasons I am concerned is that I understand that many in congress also share your opinion, so although Obama would not be able to reinstate the draft, he would be able to with the help of congress.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by MattG

Merely by posting the subject line that you did IS a partisan post designed to create negative opinions about Obama and, frankly, to create fear in people's minds. It's a disgusting political tactic that the Republicans have been using way too much in this campaign.
.

That anyone would think scare tactics is the exclusive pervue of the Repubs is mystifying. The Dems. have made it an artform.

Both sides easily go to scare tactics, race baiting, instigating class warfare...whatever fractures us and highlights our differences.

The Dems most certainly included.

Remember, the Republicans have always been known as the stupid party, the Dems as the evil party.

They BOTH do the hate mongering, which means it's both stupid AND evil.

[goldfive]

There is no way in hell that Obama would ever reinstate the draft. First off, there would have to be a severe need, as in a major war that our volunteer military could not handle. Like going to war with Russia or China or something of that scale.

But, Obama is so conflict-averse that it will never come to that. I can't imagine him committing our troops to war under any circumstances. If he wants to be re-elected in four years (which all presidents do), then he can't afford to piss off the Code-Pinkers and Moveon.org and Daily Kos types that make up his base. I can't think of anything that would piss off those people more than starting up another draft.

[slaughtr]

Originally Posted by goldfive

There is no way in hell that Obama would ever reinstate the draft. First off, there would have to be a severe need, as in a major war that our volunteer military could not handle. Like going to war with Russia or China or something of that scale.

But, Obama is so conflict-averse that it will never come to that. I can't imagine him committing our troops to war under any circumstances. If he wants to be re-elected in four years (which all presidents do), then he can't afford to piss off the Code-Pinkers and Moveon.org and Daily Kos types that make up his base. I can't think of anything that would piss off those people more than starting up another draft.

Maybe that was what Biden was refering too?

BTW, I got this discussion off a Hillary Clinton forum. So much for my partisanship.
Biden Gaffe Is Likely A Warning That Obama Will Impose The Draft Shortly If He Takes Office! - www.hillaryclintonforum.net

[milehitom]

Reinstating the draft requires an act of Congress. Charles Rangell (D-NY), a decorated Korean War veteran, offered up the Universal National Service Act of 2006 in February, which would have required all people in the United States, including women, between the ages of 18 and 42, to perform a period of military service or period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security.

Of course, it died in committee, just as he predicted. He simply wanted to remind people that war is something that should be democratized, or else we can ignore it while others less fortunate do the dirty work.

Tom

[Cardinal]

Sure, the draft requires an act of Congress. Let me ask you this: if Obama wanted a draft, would Congress stand up to him or go along with him?

[slaughtr]

It's an interesting question though, if Rangel had gotten his way, is mandatory service (military or otherwise) a good idea and is it workable in our society. How many college age people would agree to some kind of mandatory service to their country?

[goldfive]

Originally Posted by slaughtr

Maybe that was what Biden was refering too?

BTW, I got this discussion off a Hillary Clinton forum. So much for my partisanship.
Biden Gaffe Is Likely A Warning That Obama Will Impose The Draft Shortly If He Takes Office! - www.hillaryclintonforum.net

I see your point. I do feel that Biden is known for saying absurd things and people just brush them off as "oh that's just Joe being Joe." So this could be one of those cases.

I do however, feel that his prediction could very well turn out to be accurate. The dictators of the world-- Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong Il etc... are going to want to see what they can get away with with a dove in the White House. So they are probably going to push the envelope a little bit to test the waters.

There will be some pressure on Obama at that point to respond forcefully, to prove to those who didnt vote for him and to the rest of the world that he is an ex-harvard guest lecturer/senator with a set of balls. Whether he will go along with this is debatable.

[milehitom]

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Sure, the draft requires an act of Congress. Let me ask you this: if Obama wanted a draft, would Congress stand up to him or go along with him?

They'd say no. Congresspeople have to face their constituents every two years in elections. Absent a dire national emergency or world war, there'd be no draft in this country. Americans don't support the idea of national service (last poll I saw, in 2006, put that lack of support at 72%).

Tom