Alternatives to the A048s

[Rich]

I am considering reserving my A048s to track only duty, and picking up a set of street tires to compete in a local street tire class and use for regular driving. I had hoped to find something a bit less expensive than the A048s, but with very good dry weather traction (think autocross) and better treadlife (>8,000 miles, not super long life). I was thinking about using the Falken Azenis RT-215, but they've been discontinued. The replacement, the Azenis RT-615 doesn't come in sizes that are close enough (205/40 R16 loses nearly an inch in diameter, if my calculations are correct).

It's a bit tough to search the tirerack for all of the tires that are available in not just the exact size but also all of the close combinations (i.e. 195/45 R16 & 225/45 R17, and 205/45 R16 and 225/40 R17, etc.).

I was hoping to gather into one thread all of the alternatives people have found so far. Here are a few that I've found, mostly from the Tire Rack. Please post others if you find them! I really hope that people can post their experiences with various tires. All of the tires I have listed below are Max or Ultra High Performance summer tires as grouped by the Tire Rack. I have no experience at all with any of these, so please add comments on individual tires. I am also not sure that all of the sizes I found will fit the Elise wheels well without rubbing or lowering the car too much. Please comment if you see something that won't work. Feel free to post lists for the non-LSS tires if you'd like.

195/45 R16, 205/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 16s - $94, $128, $127 (Special) and 17s - $160-171 (speed rating difference)

205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Bridgestone Potenza S-03 Pole Position $153/$171 (special price)

195/45 R16, 205/45 R16, 205/50 R16, 225/45 R17
Toyo T1-S (PRICE?)

205/45 R16, 215/45 R16, 235/40 R17
Hankook Ventus R-S2 $81, $79, $104

205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Pirelli PZero Rosso Asimmetrico $88/$150

195/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Pirelli PZero System Asimmetrico $73,$88 (special price) $157

205/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R1
Bridgestone Potenza RE750 $113, $108, $145

*195/50 R16, 205/40 R16, 205/45 R16 & 225/45 R17
Kumho ECSTA Supra 712 $65, $74, $83 & $89

205/40 R16, 205/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 $126, $119, $114 and $140

205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Michelin Pilot Sport $153/$175

205/40 R16, 205/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
BFGoodrich g-Force Sport $67, $71, $74 and $98

205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Continental ContiSportContact 2 $153/$157

205/45 R16 & 225/45 R17
Dunlop SP Sport 9000 $154/$165

*195/50 R16, 205/40 R16, 205/45 R16, 205/50 R16 & 225/45 R17
Dunlop SP Sport FM901 $77, $75, $83, $82 & $102


EDIT: I'll try to sort the tires by popular opinion as it comes in. In no way should this be interpreted as an absolute ranking - I'm just taking what I read and making an uneducated guess and any ranking will be inaccurate and there will be plenty of disagreement. I will also put an asterisk (*) next to the tires that match the stock size exactly for those who don't feel comfortable changing tire size.
EDIT 2: Added Toyo T1-S. I've heard good things about them on Miata.net, IIRC, so I put them toward the top of the list.

EDIT 3 (April 29, 2005): Added Hankook Ventus R-S2, which are their new Azenis fighter for autocross use in street tire classes. I bought a set for the local street tire autocross class, and love them. They're cheap, but grip almost as well as the A048s while being vastly better in the wet. They have a softer sidewall, so they're a bit more sloppy on initial turn-in. Very communicative. At about half the price of the A048s, I can't imagine another tire being even close to the value of the Hankooks! Major thumbs up from me! I got the in 205/45 R16 (front) 235/40 R17 (rear) to lower the aspect ratio for a gain in torque multiplication at a cost of lower top speed in each gear. I also got a small increase in width, although the fronts are actually about the same size as the A048s despite the listed size being different by 10 mm.

[spindoc]

Great thread idea! I'd also suggest that the tires on this list be considered as wet weather track tires.

I don't have my Elise yet, but I do have experience with several of these tires on other cars. The Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 are the best street/wet track tires I've used. The Kumho ECSTA Supra is a good tire for the price. I have no idea of fitment on the Elise with any of these, though.

[ConeFusion]

You should be able to still buy the Azenis RT-215 now. Outstanding in the dry. Stiff sidewalls. Cheap. In the wet, they're good as long as they have plenty of tread. Once they're beyond half worn, hydroplaning becomes an issue at typical highway speeds. They tramline, badly.

F1 GS-D3: Outstanding tire overall. Unreal in the rain, excellent on dry pavement. The only downside is that the sidewalls are on the squishy side for a max performance tire, but for a car as light as the Elise that shouldn't be a problem. Just use enough air pressure. On the other hand, they're quiet for a tire of this class, and don't tramline as much as others.

I don't have personal experience with any of the others you list, but from second hand information:

S-03 PP: Been on the market for a few years, and are very popluar. Great tire by all accounts. Excellent rain tire, too. Similar performance characteristics as the F1 GS-D3.

Conti: OK, but nothing to write home about.

SP9000: Not too great.

Pilot Sports: The latest version (PS2) is supposed to be excellent. I might try them as my next summer tires. The original version is good, but too expensive.

Pirelli: The ones you list are solid, but nothing special. The PZero Nero should be better.

BFG KDW: Good, but you can do better for the money.

RE750: OK, but not on the level of the best.

FM901: Suck big time.

Supra 712: Good for the price, but not comparable to the better tires on the list.

[jtanner]

Here are my impressions of the ones I've personally used. Bear in mind that my current application is significantly larger than the Elise, and different sizes of the same tires often perform differently. That said....

BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW: Good all-purpose street tire. Dry traction is not as good as the g-Force KD, but wet traction is excellent, and tire life is good as well. No experience with the "2" version.

Kumho ECSTA Supra 712: King of budget tires. It compensates for mediocre dry grip by having predictable breakaway, good wet grip and excellent tread life. My current set has 12k miles and two lapping days at Road Atlanta, and *still* has tread left. Not really a good lapping day tire, though--when they get hot, they get greasy.

Jim

[evomind]

is there anything as good or better than what we have on there stock (48s) for dry pavement?

[rtking]

I've got the G-Force Sport on my fiancee's MB C230 Coupe. It's actually a fantastic tire for the price. Great dry and wet traction (probably on-par with the KDW), but much quieter and comfortable. For the money, those are tires I don't mind using-up on street driving. Caveat: I don't know how the Elise's suspension will like them... but the MB suspension seems to love them. Great turn-in, good lateral and longitudinal traction.

Bob

[TripleBlack_NJ]

I plan on getting the new Toyo Proxes T1-R in the spring.
http://www.toyocanada.com/products/ProxesT1R.html

If not, then the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3

Both are available in:
205/45-16 front
245/40-17 rear

[Randy Chase]

Originally posted by evomind
is there anything as good or better than what we have on there stock (48s) for dry pavement?

Certainly, there are grippier tires. But they are all R rated, such as the Hoosiers. The A-048s are also closer to an R tire than a street tire, but with a 60 wear rating, are not legal for the SCCA street tire class.

I am using the Falken Azenis on my Elise for that.

If you don't care about the wear rating for SCCA, then the A-048s are a good choice for the Elise.

[BrianK]

Originally posted by Randy Chase
, but with a 60 wear rating, are not legal for the SCCA street tire class.

That's a bit odd being tha tread wear ratings are not standardized. Maybe they are all "close enough" to warrant some sort of rule.

those scca guys are sticklers, ain't they?

something else to note (in theory) is that the Elise's light weight may have an effect on tire performance. I am under the impression that the A048's on the Lotus are of a softer compound than those of the normal A048, which would lead me to believe that the compounds on most tires are harder (and therefore less grippy) than is neeeded for us.. ?

other tid bits:
The BFG Comp T/A KDW is not the same as the KD. The 'W' in KDW means it's a wet/dry compromise, giving up some grip (surface area?) for water expulsion.

In theory, again, we should use the Perelli P-Zero Asymetrico out back and Directionalle (sp?) up front (assuming they are available in our size - which they probably aren't). That's the whole purpose of the P-Zero "system" - for use on mid/rear engine cars.

[sleepless]

Originally posted by spindoc
Great thread idea! I'd also suggest that the tires on this list be considered as wet weather track tires.

I have a hard time believing there is a much better wet track tire than the 048's; they are designed just like other wet R-Compound tires with even better water channeling than some.

Since you don't really want to be driving on a track with a lot of sitting water puddles, the 048Rs are going to be better than all the tires listed above for wet track driving.

[sleepless]

Toyo T1-S also fit and are considered good tires.

http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines...s_car/t1s.html

[ConeFusion]

Originally posted by BrianK
those scca guys are sticklers, ain't they?

I don't quite understand your point. The A048's are clearly R-compounds, it wouldn't make any kind of sense to allow them in a street tire class. I drove on A032's, which are probably comparable. While they're on the low end for R-compounds, they're nothing at all like street tires.

[Rich]

BrianK, could you clarify about the Pirelli "system"? I'm not familiar with how they're supposed to be used, and I'd like to put them on the list correctly.

[Rich]

TripleBlack_NJ, is the T1-R the same as the T1-S? I noticed that the "R" is on a Canadian site and not on the US site, while the T1-S is listed on the US site and not the Canadian site.

[TripleBlack_NJ]

Originally posted by Rich
TripleBlack_NJ, is the T1-R the same as the T1-S? I noticed that the "R" is on a Canadian site and not on the US site, while the T1-S is listed on the US site and not the Canadian site.

It is the replacement for the T1-S. It is on sale now in Europe and should be on sale in the U.S. later this year. Hopefully by April but I don't have a source for the date.

[Randy Chase]

Originally posted by ConeFusion
I don't quite understand your point. The A048's are clearly R-compounds, it wouldn't make any kind of sense to allow them in a street tire class. I drove on A032's, which are probably comparable. While they're on the low end for R-compounds, they're nothing at all like street tires.

Yeah, but some would say the Azenis are not like street tires too. If Yokohama wanted to sell a lot of tires to autocrossers, they should just change the 60 wear to 200.

[evomind]

hmmmm....im more confused now than when this thread started.

[Stan]

>>>hmmmm....im more confused now than when this thread started.<<<

Well if I understand correctly, the SCCA rigidly enforces the treadwear rule in certain classes. But the tire companies sometimes treat the treadwear ratings in a cavalier and inconsistent manner.

On r-compound tires in stock class...these are supposed to be DOT sized and rated tires. But many come with written warnings not to use them on the street. Ever. Water and outright delicacy issues. And DOT rules provide for sizing...yet many realize that r-compounds can run WAY different than the marked size and this is deliberate. For example they are often less tall and are wider than street tires of the same "size".

A 60 treadwear 048 is not going to last less than 1/3 as long as a 200 treadwear Azenis. They may last roughly the same if used in the same manner. Even if they did last and grip about the same only the higher treadwear tires can be run in the street tire classes.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Randy Chase
Yeah, but some would say the Azenis are not like street tires too.

Anyone saying that doesn't have much experience autocrossing Azenis and true r-comps. If a great street tire is a 1 (say, S-03s or Eagle F1 GS-D3) and Hoosiers are a 10, Azenis might be a 2 in dry traction. Yes Azenis have more dry grip than most other performance summer tires, but there just not even close to real autocross r-comps.

Of course, if they are still available I'll order my third set in a few months for my Miata.

[sleepless]

Originally posted by Rich
Anyone saying that doesn't have much experience autocrossing Azenis and true r-comps. If a great street tire is a 1 (say, S-03s or Eagle F1 GS-D3) and Hoosiers are a 10, Azenis might be a 2 in dry traction. Yes Azenis have more dry grip than most other performance summer tires, but there just not even close to real autocross r-comps.

Of course, if they are still available I'll order my third set in a few months for my Miata.

I think the question is how do they compare to the 048Rs? Or other DOT R-compounds.

I think the issue is that some people feel that the Azenis are as good as the DOT R-Compounds, yet are not marketed as such and have a false higher wear rating.