Changing brake lines? - LotusTalk

MikeAR303 · 04-09-2005, 07:54 AM

Does anyone have a rough estimate of how long it might take to change the brake lines on the Elise?

I'm not going to attempt it... but I got an estimate to install them which seems way out of line, so I'm trying to figure out if I need to go get an estimate from someone else.

SEBM · 04-09-2005, 08:28 AM

I got a question related to this also, would it be worth it to change to SS brake lines on the elise or it doesnt change much on those cars?

-Seb

NtflBlueLiz · 04-09-2005, 02:33 PM

I just had my brake lines, pads changed this week. The bleeding of the brakes is the real b**ch. It took my mechanic 5 hours to do it mainly becuase they had to bleed the brakes 3 times ( it was also the first time he worked on an Elise but I figured since he works and Porsches, Ferraris and Lambos at least he would be carefull with it). Another aggraating factor is that the front brake line attachment points are hard to get to.

Regarding the actual benefit of the SS lines, I think the jury is still out on that one I did it becuase I want to start tracking the car monthly and figured it was a good investment.

Steve · 04-09-2005, 05:53 PM

"The bleeding of the brakes is the real b**ch. It took my mechanic 5 hours to do it mainly becuase they had to bleed the brakes 3 times"

Ummmmm, my local BMW Club had a tech session today at a high-end shop. The owner offered free changeovers with Super Blue brake fluid, so I thought I'd go. Cleared it with the owner in advance, he was happy to have a Lotus.

Well, the point of this is that it took two mechanics about 15-20 minutes to swap out the fluid and bleed the brakes. First time they'd seen an Elise. They didn't even take off the wheels, fit the bleeders in around the rims.

The brakes don't feel any firmer, but neither are they worse.

Did they do something wrong? How could it take your guy hours and hours to do the same thing?

biobaggie · 04-09-2005, 10:34 PM

Steve - If you're just changing the brake fluid then it's pretty quick, however if you're changing the brake lines then you're going to have to remove the air in the system and this is where the real problem is.

Mike - The front calipers are the worst, due to the balance pipe which is where the air gets trapped. It's best to bleed the brakes with the calipers off (I used a couple pieces of wood to stop the pistons moving in) and rotate them in various directions, with a few taps at various points, in order to dislodge the air bubbles. You definitely have to use a power bleeder. I tried both the old fashioned method and my mityvac but neither were successful. You will have to do a couple of bleeds to get all the air out.

I have to admit I can't really feel any difference after changing over to SS lines, but then again I don't track my car. The hardest line to replace is the front passenger line (front driver is also tricky but nowhere near as bad as passenger side). I reckon 5-6 hours is probably right.

NtflBlueLiz · 04-09-2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

"
Well, the point of this is that it took two mechanics about 15-20 minutes to swap out the fluid and bleed the brakes. First time they'd seen an Elise. They didn't even take off the wheels, fit the bleeders in around the rims.

The brakes don't feel any firmer, but neither are they worse.

Did they do something wrong? How could it take your guy hours and hours to do the same thing?

Steve, You are right in that doing a regular bleed to just change the fluid in this car is no big deal because you can reach the bleeder valves without pulling the wheels; however, if you boil the fluid in the caliper in real hard driving or change the lines than you're in for a surprise....

because you will have to pull the wheels and disassmble the caliper from the disk to be able to rotate it and tap on it to get the air out and you need a power bleeder. Also the original question was about changing the lines and there aint no way to do that without introducing air into the system. As biobaggie said the lines in front are hard to get to. My mechanic did not cut a whole to get to the fitting but he sure cursed the hell out of the engineers who designed their location

Steve · 04-11-2005, 04:47 AM

Thanks for the responses guys. You can probably tell that I'm a mechanical dunce ... I had read here that bleeding the brakes alone had given some people a higher firmer pedal, unfortunately not the case with me. I'm going to have to fiddle around with the adjustments on the pedal itself. I can't come close to heel/toe in my car because the brake pedal travels so low in relation to the gas.

NtflBlueLiz · 04-11-2005, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyElise

Did the lines, did the fluid, did the pads, bled properly twice. Not a lot of difference until I did the pedal height and the bushing. Big difference. Do it!

Same here..... mussssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh

Steve · 04-11-2005, 07:46 AM

Do you mind describing the procedure? Did you swap out that rubber bushing with something else? And how are the adjustments made? I took a look down there and saw it was adjustable, but couldn't figure how exactly to do it. Thanks again, Steve

Stan · 04-11-2005, 08:22 AM

Steve...some early posts by yours truly have some pics and description about the adjustments. Basically the pushrod has a 17 mm lock nut near the clevis. It loosens with a CCW effort as seen from the driver's seat. And the pushrod is then turned with an 8 or 10 mm wrench. When you are down there you can see where the factory spec 3 mm (~1/8 inch) is supposed to be set - at the pedal up stop where a tiny rubber stopper lives. The squishy pivot bush tightens with a 13 mm wrench from the RHS. Lotus wants us to leave the squishy bush alone for fear that someone will tighten it to a gazillion foot pounds and rended the braking action affected due to bind - so use your judgement and personal responsibility here!

Stan · 04-13-2005, 04:21 AM

BTW I wouldn't rush into swapping the flexible brake lines on the Elise. Because compared to most cars, we run lowish brake line pressures...so the balooning of the rubber lines is just not a huge factor compared to some "normal" cars.

NtflBlueLiz · 04-13-2005, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

we run lowish brake line pressures...so the balooning of the rubber lines is just not a huge factor compared to some "normal" cars.

BTW, that is exactly one of the things my mechanic was saying that would certainly help cure the squishy brakes; swapping out the master cylinder for a larger diameter one so that we would need less pedal travel. Anyone working on a mod for that yet?

kverges · 05-08-2005, 05:31 PM

FWIW, I changed brake lines in what I feel is the RIGHT way. The front calipers are AP Racing parts and have a boss on the inside that can be drilled and tapped to bring fluid in the side. Then you just put a bleed screw where the brake line used to come in, and voila!, you can bleed both sides of the caliper. It took some doing to find the parts, but was pretty easy as long as you are comfortable with a drill and tap and in removing the inside piston from the caliper so you can clean out the chips from drilling and tapping the caliper. You'll need proper AN3 to 10mm adaptors, and brake lines with a 90 degree AN3 end for the caliper.

If anyone wants details, I could probably put together kits at a slight profit so you won't have to re-invent the wheel. I would have custom brake lines made up to eliminate one adaptor and make installation easier, as the front lines are a major PITA and having an adaptor between the car's hard line and the SST line makes installation just that much harder..

If you plan to track the car and ned to bleed brakes, this is the only way to go!

Keith

kverges · 05-11-2005, 05:29 PM

this is finished product, if pic link works

ekological · 05-11-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kverges

FWIW, I changed brake lines in what I feel is the RIGHT way. The front calipers are AP Racing parts and have a boss on the inside that can be drilled and tapped to bring fluid in the side. Then you just put a bleed screw where the brake line used to come in, and voila!, you can bleed both sides of the caliper. It took some doing to find the parts, but was pretty easy as long as you are comfortable with a drill and tap and in removing the inside piston from the caliper so you can clean out the chips from drilling and tapping the caliper. You'll need proper AN3 to 10mm adaptors, and brake lines with a 90 degree AN3 end for the caliper.

NICE! That's just what I asked a while ago. People weren't sure if there would be enough material to support the threads. I would have probably gone with a banjo bolt type setup rather than a 90 degree end...like they do on the P cars. Nice job.

kverges · 05-12-2005, 05:44 AM

I decided against banjo because the caliper machining operation would require a smooth milled surface on the boss and a perfectly vertical hole for the banjo fitting. I don't have a mill at home, and drilling and tapping for 1/8 NPT does not have to be perfectly vertical. I can do banjo fittings, but figure probably $50-100 for a machinist's time to setup, face, drill and tap the hole. I agree the banjo fitting is more elegant.

Bleeding the brakes is a snap, now.

04-09-2005, 07:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
MikeAR303 Robot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,664	Changing brake lines? Does anyone have a rough estimate of how long it might take to change the brake lines on the Elise? I'm not going to attempt it... but I got an estimate to install them which seems way out of line, so I'm trying to figure out if I need to go get an estimate from someone else.

04-09-2005, 08:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
SEBM Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Port St Lucie, FL Posts: 253	I got a question related to this also, would it be worth it to change to SS brake lines on the elise or it doesnt change much on those cars? -Seb __________________ -Seb 2005 Lotus Elise LSS - Chrome Orange - Fully Loaded(LSS, Touring, Hard Top) - Not Stock 1994 Toyota Supra TT - Rennaissance Red - Mod list is too long - 1300+hp 2007 Mini Cooper S - Chili Red - Beater/Family Mobile

04-09-2005, 02:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
NtflBlueLiz Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,198	I just had my brake lines, pads changed this week. The bleeding of the brakes is the real b**ch. It took my mechanic 5 hours to do it mainly becuase they had to bleed the brakes 3 times ( it was also the first time he worked on an Elise but I figured since he works and Porsches, Ferraris and Lambos at least he would be carefull with it). Another aggraating factor is that the front brake line attachment points are hard to get to. Regarding the actual benefit of the SS lines, I think the jury is still out on that one I did it becuase I want to start tracking the car monthly and figured it was a good investment. __________________ 2005 Nightfall Blue

04-09-2005, 05:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
Steve Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Providence, Rhode Island Posts: 282	"The bleeding of the brakes is the real b**ch. It took my mechanic 5 hours to do it mainly becuase they had to bleed the brakes 3 times" Ummmmm, my local BMW Club had a tech session today at a high-end shop. The owner offered free changeovers with Super Blue brake fluid, so I thought I'd go. Cleared it with the owner in advance, he was happy to have a Lotus. Well, the point of this is that it took two mechanics about 15-20 minutes to swap out the fluid and bleed the brakes. First time they'd seen an Elise. They didn't even take off the wheels, fit the bleeders in around the rims. The brakes don't feel any firmer, but neither are they worse. Did they do something wrong? How could it take your guy hours and hours to do the same thing? __________________ Empires dissolve and peoples disappear, Song passes not away. Sir William Watson

04-11-2005, 04:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
Steve Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Providence, Rhode Island Posts: 282	Thanks for the responses guys. You can probably tell that I'm a mechanical dunce ... I had read here that bleeding the brakes alone had given some people a higher firmer pedal, unfortunately not the case with me. I'm going to have to fiddle around with the adjustments on the pedal itself. I can't come close to heel/toe in my car because the brake pedal travels so low in relation to the gas. __________________ Empires dissolve and peoples disappear, Song passes not away. Sir William Watson

04-09-2005, 10:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
biobaggie Mr. Sparkle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 633	Steve - If you're just changing the brake fluid then it's pretty quick, however if you're changing the brake lines then you're going to have to remove the air in the system and this is where the real problem is. Mike - The front calipers are the worst, due to the balance pipe which is where the air gets trapped. It's best to bleed the brakes with the calipers off (I used a couple pieces of wood to stop the pistons moving in) and rotate them in various directions, with a few taps at various points, in order to dislodge the air bubbles. You definitely have to use a power bleeder. I tried both the old fashioned method and my mityvac but neither were successful. You will have to do a couple of bleeds to get all the air out. I have to admit I can't really feel any difference after changing over to SS lines, but then again I don't track my car. The hardest line to replace is the front passenger line (front driver is also tricky but nowhere near as bad as passenger side). I reckon 5-6 hours is probably right.

04-11-2005, 07:46 AM	#9 (permalink)
Steve Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Providence, Rhode Island Posts: 282	Do you mind describing the procedure? Did you swap out that rubber bushing with something else? And how are the adjustments made? I took a look down there and saw it was adjustable, but couldn't figure how exactly to do it. Thanks again, Steve __________________ Empires dissolve and peoples disappear, Song passes not away. Sir William Watson

04-11-2005, 08:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Stan - Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,947	Steve...some early posts by yours truly have some pics and description about the adjustments. Basically the pushrod has a 17 mm lock nut near the clevis. It loosens with a CCW effort as seen from the driver's seat. And the pushrod is then turned with an 8 or 10 mm wrench. When you are down there you can see where the factory spec 3 mm (~1/8 inch) is supposed to be set - at the pedal up stop where a tiny rubber stopper lives. The squishy pivot bush tightens with a 13 mm wrench from the RHS. Lotus wants us to leave the squishy bush alone for fear that someone will tighten it to a gazillion foot pounds and rended the braking action affected due to bind - so use your judgement and personal responsibility here!

04-13-2005, 04:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
Stan - Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,947	BTW I wouldn't rush into swapping the flexible brake lines on the Elise. Because compared to most cars, we run lowish brake line pressures...so the balooning of the rubber lines is just not a huge factor compared to some "normal" cars.

05-08-2005, 05:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
kverges Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 989	FWIW, I changed brake lines in what I feel is the RIGHT way. The front calipers are AP Racing parts and have a boss on the inside that can be drilled and tapped to bring fluid in the side. Then you just put a bleed screw where the brake line used to come in, and voila!, you can bleed both sides of the caliper. It took some doing to find the parts, but was pretty easy as long as you are comfortable with a drill and tap and in removing the inside piston from the caliper so you can clean out the chips from drilling and tapping the caliper. You'll need proper AN3 to 10mm adaptors, and brake lines with a 90 degree AN3 end for the caliper. If anyone wants details, I could probably put together kits at a slight profit so you won't have to re-invent the wheel. I would have custom brake lines made up to eliminate one adaptor and make installation easier, as the front lines are a major PITA and having an adaptor between the car's hard line and the SST line makes installation just that much harder.. If you plan to track the car and ned to bleed brakes, this is the only way to go! Keith

05-11-2005, 05:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
kverges Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 989	this is finished product, if pic link works

05-12-2005, 05:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
kverges Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 989	I decided against banjo because the caliper machining operation would require a smooth milled surface on the boss and a perfectly vertical hole for the banjo fitting. I don't have a mill at home, and drilling and tapping for 1/8 NPT does not have to be perfectly vertical. I can do banjo fittings, but figure probably $50-100 for a machinist's time to setup, face, drill and tap the hole. I agree the banjo fitting is more elegant. Bleeding the brakes is a snap, now.

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