Installed Hawk HPS front pads, now reduced grip?

[Terculees]

My front pads (OEM) were completely worn down. I installed a pair of Hawk HPS street pads to replace the OEM with the promise of both more grip and less dust. I can't comment on the dust, but braking power is now significantly reduced. I cannot slam on my brakes and make the car lock up or pulse ABS anymore, and using the same braking pressure as before on OEM only pads I now overshoot stop lines by about 5 feet. Even with the pedal to the metal, maximum braking is not generated.

I also feel that the bias is now towards the rear, as the car has zero nosedive when I brake.

What is the solution?

I did not bleed the brakes as I was told by a mechanic that if you don't open the lines, you don't need to. I just pushed the pistons back in the calipers and replaced the pads.

06 Elise Touring, Front HAWK HPS, Rear OEM, OEM discs all around.

[fzust]

Did you bed the new pads properly? There is a procedure from the manufacturer to do this. Without properly bedding the pads, I would expect reduced grip.

[TimMullen]

Did you bed them in?

It's a good idea to bed in new brake pads to match them to the rotors.

Basically, you get up to 60 MPH (or a bit more), slam on the brakes and slow down to around 20, then speed up and repeat four or five times. It heats them up and beds them in. After doing this, try not to stop completely and let them cool down before parking.

Other than that?

[Terculees]

Full bedding was completed :-(

Is there any bias adjustor that would let me alter front/rear bias? Maybe the pads will grip better with more piston pressure up front.

Also, my rotors were pretty pitted. I have not replaced them nor milled them (cross-drilled rotors can't be milled), and after 2 weeks with the new pads, most of the pitting from the old pads is gone. Should I see increased grips when both the pits in the rotors and the pad surface itself "adjust" to each other? I expect to do a rotor swap at the next pad change, just didn't want to change rotors now since they had plenty of thickness left.

[xtn]

1. A bit of light pitting isn't going to make any noticeable difference on the street.

2. They MIGHT get a little better once the old compound is worn off the rotors and a good deposit of new hawk material is laid down.

3. The OEM pads on the Lotus aren't going to be topped with any over-the-counter street pad. It's likely that Hawk's claim of increased braking power is relative to the average minivan's OEM pads. Just a guess but I think that's the real reason for your issue. Please see this...

Originally Posted by some Hawk marketing copy writer that doesn't actually know anything about brakes at all

"The HPS in Hawk HPS Brake Pads stands for high-performance street—top braking power for virtually any vehicle on the road. They’re the fusion of Hawk’s aerospace experience and high-end braking technology that exceeds all other performance brake pads on the market today.

Behind the extreme stopping power of Hawk HPS Brake Pads is their unique ferro-carbon compound material. This exclusive composite makes Hawk HPS Brake Pads 20-40% more powerful than standard pad replacements with less friction. It’s why Hawk Brake Pads have a higher resistance to brake fade, giving you more control when it matters most.

An ideal companion to performance rotors, Hawk HPS Brake Pads fit into your calipers just like a standard replacement—no extra hassles. They last longer and are easier on your rotors, too. Hawk HPS Brake Pads are also virtually noise-free for your comfort.

Start braking with authority today! Your Hawk HPS Brake Pads boast a Lifetime Warranty."

That's basically a bunch of marketing-speak mumbo-jumbo with at least one flat out lie. More stopping power with less friction? Huh? Somebody tell me how that makes sense. Hawk HPS pads are NOT considered a real performance pad, at least not by anybody who actually has any experience with braking performance. I'm sure all the friday-night street racers want them on their Mustangs, but you slap them on the front of your Lotus and your complaint does not surprise me at all.

4. Why can't you turn cross-drilled rotors? You just need somebody who knows what they're doing with good tools, instead of the kid at the local Midas shop. If you can't find any "brake" people to do it, take them to a real machinist. But that's all beside the point; I doubt you need to have yours turned.

xtn

[Apex_in_sno]

Get some real pads

Pagid are very good
PAGID Racing

I run the RS14's on the street and the track, they offer significantly more grip on the track than OEM.
Many also run RS4-2 if you want something less aggressive.

[tommyc]

1st you should bleed the braking system and clutch at least once a year, it is in the manual and quite easy to do with several different methods. I have the porterfields and am quite happy with them. Also when the rear calipers are "turned in" I try not to turn them all the way in. I go just enough to fit the new pads in the correct orientation. Good luck but bleed the system especially if you are tracking the car. Tommy

[rackhenry]

Originally Posted by xtn

1. A bit of light pitting isn't going to make any noticeable difference on the street.

2. They MIGHT get a little better once the old compound is worn off the rotors and a good deposit of new hawk material is laid down.

3. The OEM pads on the Lotus aren't going to be topped with any over-the-counter street pad. It's likely that Hawk's claim of increased braking power is relative to the average minivan's OEM pads. Just a guess but I think that's the real reason for your issue. Please see this...



That's basically a bunch of marketing-speak mumbo-jumbo with at least one flat out lie. More stopping power with less friction? Huh? Somebody tell me how that makes sense. Hawk HPS pads are NOT considered a real performance pad, at least not by anybody who actually has any experience with braking performance. I'm sure all the friday-night street racers want them on their Mustangs, but you slap them on the front of your Lotus and your complaint does not surprise me at all.

4. Why can't you turn cross-drilled rotors? You just need somebody who knows what they're doing with good tools, instead of the kid at the local Midas shop. If you can't find any "brake" people to do it, take them to a real machinist. But that's all beside the point; I doubt you need to have yours turned.

xtn

On the Money!! More braking power with less friction, they apparently don't follow the laws of physics.

[Terculees]

Huh. Interesting, as I did quite a bit of research and Hawk seems to be a liked pad on here, though not as much as pagid. Granted, that may be a different compound pad. I wanted to get something that is definitely street only (no track) but at the same time grips better and with less dust than the stockers. Looks like "Improvement over OEM" doesn't mean improvement over Lotus OEM.

[lotusbrakes]

These types of problems are extremely hard to diagnose over the internet.

You should be able to get into ABS with the Hawk HPS.

When you bedded them in, did you notice a foul smell after about 5 stops from 40-5 mph?

Depending on the condition of your brake system, you may still need to bleed the brakes. There is no guarantee you didn't introduce air into the system.

The hawk hps are a good replacement pad. We have had good reviews from Lotus as well as our other customers.

You can PM us for any specific questions.

-G

[LastToy]

I recall even the stock pads that came w/ the car took a while for them to work well. Especially on used rotors, check to see if all of the rear Hawk pads are making contact w/ the rotors. I'm betting that you just need to run them a little longer.

[jmiesse]

Flush your old fluid!! this is, at least, a yearly task. I think you might be surprised at the results.

[Hawk Performance]

Hello –

I would like to address some of concerns I have read regarding Hawk Performance pads.

Let me start by saying that I am surprised that the HPS pads are not performing to your satisfaction and want to assure you that we will do everything we can to satisfy the situation.

The first recommendation I would make is that the rotors be cleaned and/or re-surfaced when replacing pads, especially when pitting is present. The pitting reduces the surface area of the rotor and reduces the brake effectiveness significantly. You can turn drilled rotors. However, you must make sure to use a low feed rate and an experienced machinist/mechanic.

Second, bleeding the brakes is always a good idea when changing pads. Sometimes the fluid will have absorbed contaminants during use and/or captured debris/air when pushing the piston back into the caliper. Either way, fresh fluid in the system always makes the brakes work better.

Third, I would recommend that you run our Performance Ceramic pads against drilled rotors. The makeup of the ceramics functions better against a drilled rotor, due to the pad being “harder”, and you will see better braking performance as a result of using a “harder” pad.

Fourth, I read the quote and we did not write that. We have some info that is close but the translation that a distributor used was not accurately aligned with our messaging. The most inaccurate claim was the part about “more braking power with less friction”. Check out our website for the correct messaging Hawk Performance Brake Pads: Race Proven, Street Legal. I have also contacted the company that is publishing that message and requested that they correct it.

On another note, we do have a wide range of compounds to fit many different needs. We have 10 racing compounds and 5 different road/street compounds. I would like to talk with you in more detail and see if we can find a compound that works better for your driving style.

PM me your phone number and I can give you a call to discuss.

Thank You,

Todd Miller
Product Specialist
Hawk Performance
Office 440.528.3216

[xtn]

Mr. Miller,

Thank-you for contributing to our forum in a professional manner. You represent Hawk very well.

I'm assuming you googled the quote I posted to find the distributor in question. If so, you will see that there are a few different vendors using those words verbatim. They didn't get that wording from Hawk? Although it's not necessarily false depending on what criteria one assigns to the word performance, I hope we can agree that most people seeking a performance oriented pad would have braking torque as a primary criteria.

I'm sure Hawk makes a quality product with regards to fit, build quality, etc., but isn't it safe to say that the HPS pad doesn't have a coefficient of friction - at any reasonable temperature - as high as Lotus' OEM pads? I think that's the primary reason the starter of this thread has found his front/rear bias messed up. I mean he's got light surface pitting on his rotors front and rear. He's got the same old fluid front and rear. Those things might be contributing slightly to overall less braking capacity, but they aren't changing his front/rear bias. Will you agree?

I really think he needs a higher level pad (if he wants Hawks that's fine, but not the HPS) if he expects to get similar friction at a given line pressure as he was used to with the Lotus OEM pads.

xtn

[lotusbrakes]

"The HPS in Hawk HPS Brake Pads stands for high-performance street—top braking power for virtually any vehicle on the road. They’re the fusion of Hawk’s aerospace experience and high-end braking technology that exceeds all other performance brake pads on the market today.

Behind the extreme stopping power of Hawk HPS Brake Pads is their unique ferro-carbon compound material. This exclusive composite makes Hawk HPS Brake Pads 20-40% more powerful than standard pad replacements with less friction. It’s why Hawk Brake Pads have a higher resistance to brake fade, giving you more control when it matters most.

An ideal companion to performance rotors, Hawk HPS Brake Pads fit into your calipers just like a standard replacement—no extra hassles. They last longer and are easier on your rotors, too. Hawk HPS Brake Pads are also virtually noise-free for your comfort.

Start braking with authority today! Your Hawk HPS Brake Pads boast a Lifetime Warranty."




I am truly embarrassed and ashamed that I have to consider whomever wrote this my peer.

There are several notes in this thread however that are exactly on track.

1- When it comes to performance cars such as the Elise - (or Corvette/STi/EVO etc) - Hawk HPS are much more of a lateral move than a friction upgrade. If you need MORE bite - think HP+ or a comparable Pagid or other manufacturer compound.

2- Compared to 'Honda' pads (i.e. a typical ceramic OEM pad) Hawk HPS do generally have more friction - but it's the shape of the curve that is the benefit. Those ceramic OEM pads have decent initial 'grab' - but more pressure does not lead to linear increase in brake torque. Feel and modulation as well as wear and ability to take abuse is generally poor. They are NOT designed to work well -they are designed to be QUIET and make no DUST as that is what consumers want.

HPS on the other hand are a semi-metallic pad - and a relatively mild one at that. That means the tip in torque is NOT high - but more pedal generally leads to more brake. That means the initial feel might be even a bit less. And while USUALLY quiet - they can make some noise - this seems to be most dependent on the application. EVO's and STi's are notorious for terrible brake noise issues. Dust is best described as moderate. They are certainly durable and can take some pretty hard use without completely failing.

Keep in mind - these are GENERAL observations comparing the product to others. Use common sense for your particular application. I have used/sold THOUSANDS of Hawk HPS brake pads. When the expectation, installation and use MATCH what the product is intended for they are a good product. That is really not debatable unless you wish to e-argue minutiae.

-Ken

[5qf3764b]

Originally Posted by lotusbrakes

2- Compared to 'Honda' pads (i.e. a typical ceramic OEM pad) Hawk HPS do generally have more friction - but it's the shape of the curve that is the benefit. Those ceramic OEM pads have decent initial 'grab' - but more pressure does not lead to linear increase in brake torque. Feel and modulation as well as wear and ability to take abuse is generally poor. They are NOT designed to work well -they are designed to be QUIET and make no DUST as that is what consumers want.

I agree 100% with this statement. I ran Porterfield R-4 pads for 2 track days in my Elise before I sold it. Then the stock pads for 2 track days in the Exige before getting some more R-4 pads. I only plan do 5-6 track days a year so I wanted something I could live with the other 360 days so I bought some Hawk HPS pads. In Sept. I got lazy and did not swap the pads out for a track day and ran the Hawk pads. I can tell you from recent and relevant experience that the Hawk HPS are indeed better than stock pads. The grip is more gradual and I will certainly swap them out next time. They are what they are, a cheaper, more street friendly alternative.

It sounds to me the OP has something else in the mix other than bad pads.

[Hawk Performance]

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and for allowing manufactures to post replies.

I do know that many performance platforms use the HPS compound and it works very well for them. I have also seen that the more heat you put into the HPS the better they get. Up to a point of course.

XTN -

Thank you for the kind words.

Yes I googled the quote and am in the process of getting all of the content I can find changed. One thing I found was that the orignal content on one website has been replicated by a few other comparision shopping sites so it will take a bit of time for all the results to be fixed.

As for the Mu of the Lotus OE pads vs. the HPS pads I do not have that data point because we have not dyno tested that particular caliper set up. It is something I will ask our R&D staff to look into running though.

I agree he should use another pad in place of HPS, as I stated in my first post.

Todd

[mrcarcrazy]

I have nothing useful to add, just wanted to say its pretty cool seeing someone from a manufacturer here, trying to help one of our LTers. and he actually sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I give you Props Mr Miller.

[Savet]

I agree, it's awesome that a manufacturer rep stepped in and offered their insight and help. I just installed the HPS pads on all 4 wheels today. We bled the brakes and I swapped out the front rotors. I have to agree with the above sentiments that they aren't really an upgrade over the OEM pads, but they definately feel capable with firm pressure on the brake.

[Hawk Performance]

Thanks for supporting our brand.

Has anyone tried the Performance Ceramic pads on their car?

Todd