Installing AP 4pot ,but I have leaking issue by the brake line joint on the caliper. - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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Installing AP 4pot ,but I have leaking issue by the brake line joint on the caliper.

Hi guys,
I'm in the middle of Lotus motorsports AP 4pot kit.
There is no clear instruction I can find ,but installed it with my best knowledge and failed... haha
This kit came with the joint that attaches to the caliper and the hose attaches to the joint.
I used two crush washer either side of that joint (picture) ,but it's leaking from there.
Did I put that together correctly?

Chris
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Looks like the tabs on the caliper is interfering with the benjo joint to fully seat.
I have to grind down them a little for the benjo to clear. Pretty surprise I have to do this to Lotus supplied kit.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 11:52 PM
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Don't grind on the calliper!!! Two wrongs don't make it right. You've got an adapter fitting there... You need to replace the complete brake line (hose)... You need to get the CUP260 front brake lines for this installation. They come with a banjo hose end and not an adapter.

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 11:58 PM
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Oh...and by the way...I'm pretty sure that replacing the front brake lines is a clam off project...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 03:10 AM
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On an Elise you can do it with the clam on. I just did it a couple months ago. Not sure on an Exige.

I see no harm in grinding the "horns" on the caliper, just plug the hole so no dust gets in there.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 09:19 AM
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On the Elise, you can do the SS brake lines with the clam on.

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Nickshu View Post

I see no harm in grinding the "horns" on the caliper, just plug the hole so no dust gets in there.
Remind me of this quote whenever you sell any of your stuff on here...I'll stay way clear of any of your stuff you have worked on.

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
Remind me of this quote whenever you sell any of your stuff on here...I'll stay way clear of any of your stuff you have worked on.
Please explain to us how grinding/machining 0.020" of the metal casting off two spots on a non-structural part of the caliper causes any danger to the durability and safety of the caliper?

I am not intimately familiar with the AP racing brake line setup, is this banjo adapter not the stock arrangement?

Another solution could be to get slightly thicker lower copper crush gasket to raise the banjo adapter up a bit, assuming the banjo bolt is long enough to accommodate this. If the lower gasket were say 0.020" thicker it might be less than 1/2 turn on the threads higher. Did you measure that the crush gaskets were all the same thickness? Perhaps there are upper and lower ones of different thickness so it will clear?

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
You've got an adapter fitting there...
If you read the original post, this is apparently the part supplied by Lotus. It would be reasonable to expect these parts to fit together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
Remind me of this quote whenever you sell any of your stuff on here...I'll stay way clear of any of your stuff you have worked on.
Smart-ass comments like this do nothing to explain the rationale behind your opinion, they just make you look like a petulant child. Then again, maybe you should be excused because you're just emulating our president-elect.

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nickshu View Post
Please explain to us how grinding/machining 0.020" of the metal casting off two spots on a non-structural part of the caliper causes any danger to the durability and safety of the caliper?

I am not intimately familiar with the AP racing brake line setup, is this banjo adapter not the stock arrangement?

Another solution could be to get slightly thicker lower copper crush gasket to raise the banjo adapter up a bit, assuming the banjo bolt is long enough to accommodate this. If the lower gasket were say 0.020" thicker it might be less than 1/2 turn on the threads higher. Did you measure that the crush gaskets were all the same thickness? Perhaps there are upper and lower ones of different thickness so it will clear?
It's not a structural thing at all...

1. grinding on aly aluminum removes the corrosion protection off of the part. Granted a small area, but still a source for corrosion. It is not a question if it will corrode, it's a question of long it will take for it all to corrode away. And, if you are grinding away at it, I'm sure that you don't have the capabilities of aluminum corrosion protection...neither chemical conversion coating nor anodizing.

2. It is no longer OEM and irreversibly damaged. Damaged...see #1. This is more for the car collectors than for anybody else or the short term minded...

3. The photo shows an adapter...which means there is one more joint that will fail...ie come loose or leak. Very bad practice to have extra joint in any hydraulic system...especially a safety system like the brake system.

4. It shows that you don't care about doing things right, just doing things fast...not something I aspire too.

The only reason it doesn't fit is because it has to be thicker to accept the M10X1.0 hydraulic fitting...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
1. grinding on aly aluminum removes the corrosion protection off of the part. Granted a small area, but still a source for corrosion. It is not a question if it will corrode, it's a question of long it will take for it all to corrode away. And, if you are grinding away at it, I'm sure that you don't have the capabilities of aluminum corrosion protection...neither chemical conversion coating nor anodizing.
...
Your statement is false: the fact that you grind aluminum has nothing to do with whether or not you have the capability to protect aluminum from corrosion.

@kickinoutyo - The caliper in the picture appears to be pressure cast aluminum that was machined in certain areas then painted. An appropriate primer and paint would provide sufficient protection for any bare aluminum on the caliper.

All the calipers I've ever seen are painted* because the process provides appropriate corrosion protection, is cost effective and is easy to control what gets coated and what doesn't. While an example might be out there, I've never seen an anodized aluminum caliper or one with a chemical conversion coating ... creating such an assembly would be problematic since many surfaces of the caliper would not function properly if exposed to these processes.

Glen

* Except the bare aluminum calipers that came on my Elise

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Last edited by Glen; 12-17-2016 at 05:57 AM. Reason: Note exception pointed out by @exigegus
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 05:53 AM
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So the un plated un painted factory calipers on my car are corroding away as we speak? How about the visible paint chips on the caliper in question, should he start panicking now?

If he is concerned he can touch up the paint when he is done.

No longer OEM?

Really?

There is not a toolbox in the Lotus factory without an assortment of files, grinders, hammers and other tweaking devices.

Meanwhile I am on the lookout for rotting on my un painted engine block.

While extra joints are not preferable, car manufacturers add them without a thought for their convenience in assembly

There is nothing wrong with the proposed solution, though I think a good quality file is the proper tool. Do not remove the counterclockwise ear as it no doubt helps keep suspension movement from loosening the fitting.[edit] and make sure to leave a bit of room for the crush washer to , well, crush

There will be zero weakening of the caliper or its corrosion resistance.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
It's not a structural thing at all...

1. grinding on aly aluminum removes the corrosion protection off of the part. Granted a small area, but still a source for corrosion. It is not a question if it will corrode, it's a question of long it will take for it all to corrode away. And, if you are grinding away at it, I'm sure that you don't have the capabilities of aluminum corrosion protection...neither chemical conversion coating nor anodizing.

2. It is no longer OEM and irreversibly damaged. Damaged...see #1. This is more for the car collectors than for anybody else or the short term minded...

3. The photo shows an adapter...which means there is one more joint that will fail...ie come loose or leak. Very bad practice to have extra joint in any hydraulic system...especially a safety system like the brake system.

4. It shows that you don't care about doing things right, just doing things fast...not something I aspire too.

The only reason it doesn't fit is because it has to be thicker to accept the M10X1.0 hydraulic fitting...
Since we're numbering things now...

1. It is highly doubtful that grinding a few thousandths off the edge of this area would result in corroding thru the 3/8-1/2" of aluminum below to the point of presenting any failure risk. Also consider these cars are generally not operated in conditions where calipers are exposed to road chemicals that would facilitate corrosion at any significant level. The engine bay of our cars is full of unpainted/untreated aluminum and we're not seeing corrosion failures there.

2. I can see areas of exposed aluminum at other edges in the photo from shelf/box wear. How are these areas any different with regard to corrosion potential from where you would machine off a small amount on the bracket?

3. Since this is a Lotus OEM part how did Lotus make it fit? Filed the edges at the factory most likely from other things I have seen on these handbuilt cars.

4. I do agree with you that a direct line fitting here is safer and less prone to leak than the banjo fitting with copper crush washers, but again that's what Lotus/AP spec'd here and I'd venture to guess there are countless cars running with this banjo setup, many of which are running in very arduous duty track environments without any issues.

5. As far as originality I have personally done rotisserie restorations on two concours show cars. I have never had a judge look at the back underside of a part, remove a brake line, and take points off for an area that had 20 thousandths machined off.

6. I don't understand your argument that filing off the edges here to fit the OEM Lotus supplied banjo fitting would make the part "no longer OEM" when you are at the same time advocating a different non-OEM fitting adapted from the S260 be used instead which was not OEM as Lotus supplied it with this caliper to the OP.

Nick____________
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Last edited by Nickshu; 12-17-2016 at 06:16 AM.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 06:42 AM
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I need to learn Engrish...

There is nothing wrong with a banjo fitting...that is the most use fitting on competition car brake systems...

My comment was that you have a metal-to-metal M10x1.0 fitting and then a banjo fitting at the caliper end. The metal-to-metal flare fitting is the extra one...

Lotus CUP260s come with a stainless steel braided line with banjo fitting at the caliper end... all the other Lotuses (in the Elise and Exige lineup) come with flare fittings on the caliper end... This is an adapter to preserve the OEM rubber brake line when upgrading to the AP Racing BBK.

If you are replacing the caliper to the BBK caliper, replace the lines with upgraded stainless steel braided lines also...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:32 AM
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I know this post is old and dead but I'd like to point out, my oem 08s240 came with 4 piston calipers from the factory up front, it also came with stainless brake lines "WITH" that very same banjo adaptor to connect my oem stainless lines to the 4 pot caliper.
My upgraded 315mm calipers came with lines where a bent line banjo was crimped on and no adaptor is needed. I just installed the 315mm kit with my oe stainless front lines with the banjo adaptor as removing the oe lines just for a slightly few grams lighter crimp/bent line without adaptor would be a pain in the butt.

2008 Persian Blue Exige S240/2014 Quad cab Ford F-150 Fx4 Ecoboost

Last edited by Backpain; 04-21-2017 at 12:34 AM. Reason: Remove a line as I noticed something in photo I didn't see at first
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