Nitrogen? - LotusTalk

CanadianRedline · 06-16-2008, 08:14 PM

Has anyone here toyed with nitrogen filled tires? I have a neighbor who works at a Mazda dealership who tells me that they are filling everything from RX-8's to 'Vettes with nitrogen. Lats longer, better fuel economy etc.. Anyone tried it?

andykeck · 06-16-2008, 08:44 PM

I always fill my tires with a 78% nitrogen mixture.

Kamran · 06-16-2008, 09:03 PM

you maintain (fairly) the same tire pressure regardless of the outside temp. Don't believe it gives better fuel economy though.

dstevens · 06-17-2008, 12:38 AM

No, you can't change the gas laws, so tire pressure still increases with temperature. The idea using nitrogen is to remove the water vapour component from the gas in the tire. In practice I've found that nitrogen gives the same pressure rise with temperature as plain air, but I imagine it depends on humidity. In any case it always seems moot if the tire is mounted with the typical soapy water mix.

Aedo · 06-17-2008, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck

I always fill my tires with a 78% nitrogen mixture.

fpitas · 06-17-2008, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamran

you maintain (fairly) the same tire pressure regardless of the outside temp. Don't believe it gives better fuel economy though.

In my house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.

MikeVR4 · 06-17-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fpitas

In my house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.

Yeah, but having to listen to Entropy all the time...Man, she is a b****!

fpitas · 06-17-2008, 06:49 AM

The Straight Dope: Is it better to fill your tires with nitrogen instead of air?

xtn · 06-17-2008, 07:51 AM

You may maintain a more consistent pressure over different temperatures with a dry gas as compared to a humid gas.

Notes:

1. I did NOT say pressure would stay the same regardless of temperature.
2. I did NOT imply that any specific gas expands more or less than air.
3. I DID imply that that water vapor in whatever you fill your tires with can be the biggest culprit in pressure changes with temperature.
4. Using compressed air that's run through a very good dryer is probably just as pressure stable as nitrogen is. The whole reason nitrogen is dry is because when they isolate it they run it through a very good dryer.
5. Some moisture may indeed get into your tire from the soapy-water solution used to set the bead. After it has evaporated, three or four deflate/inflate cycles would exchange most of that humid gas.

xtn

Kamran · 06-17-2008, 08:46 AM

hmm...I still don't see how my response defied laws of physics..

I thought we were talking about why one would use Nitrogen to fill tires

apk919 · 06-17-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck

I always fill my tires with a 78% nitrogen mixture.

Me too!

Damn, I think McLaren got a hold of my secret files!

Bavarian Motorist · 06-17-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andykeck

I always fill my tires with a 78% nitrogen mixture.

Oh...I get it

fpitas · 06-17-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamran

hmm...I still don't see how my response defied laws of physics..

I thought we were talking about why one would use Nitrogen to fill tires

Because PV = nRT for Nitrogen, just as much as it does for air.

Ideal gas law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

fuse · 06-17-2008, 10:56 AM

Sort of related...one of the F1 spy scandal with Ferrari and McLaren revelation was "CO2" used in Ferrari tires. Here are some details from Race Car Engineering.

Ferrari F2007 Secrets | F1 | Racecar Engineering

Bruce · 06-17-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuse

Sort of related...one of the F1 spy scandal with Ferrari and McLaren revelation was "CO2" used in Ferrari tires. Here are some details from Race Car Engineering.

CO2 sequestration. How many tires would you have to fill to stop "man made" global warming?

fuse · 06-17-2008, 11:10 AM

haha!

I guess the problem is that it doesn't remove them...when you get a flat or take the tire off the wheel...CO2 returns to atmosphere...

The article also states that Ferrari used a mixture of 50% HFC R404A and 50% CO2 rather than CO2 that most the news article had reported.

Nitrogen may be very helpful on tracks like California Speedway where you stress the right tires a lot more and usually have to run lower cold tire pressures...where nitrogen can help reduce the difference in pressure from cold to hot.

cpforyou · 06-17-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Oh...I get it

approx 78% nitrogen here, 21% oxygen, and 1% argon.

Scrumpot · 06-17-2008, 12:19 PM

The only advantage I've ever heard for this is that supposedly it retards gradual pressure loss ("slow leak") over time for long-term STREET use, and really does not have any appreciable track advantage.

But what do I know?

I just used RETARD in a sentence in my post.

robains · 06-17-2008, 12:28 PM

I just fart in my tires.

It will cost you more to use Nitrogen than any possible savings you'd get from fuel economy (assuming you do get any better mpg numbers).

In my old race car I used Nitrogen, but to be honest I couldn't tell the difference, maybe because our races were sprint races that last only 20-30 minutes.

As for Ferrari F1 mix, I believe Bridgestone made the tire for Ferrari specifically to be used with that gas mixture, unfair advantage?? Maybe, but that is the benefit of building a car for the tires and the tires for a car for essentially one team -- however, I'm sure no such close bond exists between Ferrari and Bridgestone now -- I'm sure

Scrumpot · 06-17-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuse

haha!

I guess the problem is that it doesn't remove them...when you get a flat or take the tire off the wheel...CO2 returns to atmosphere...

The article also states that Ferrari used a mixture of 50% HFC R404A and 50% CO2 rather than CO2 that most the news article had reported.

Nitrogen may be very helpful on tracks like California Speedway where you stress the right tires a lot more and usually have to run lower cold tire pressures...where nitrogen can help reduce the difference in pressure from cold to hot.

I can see now the hazmat teams, all rushing out to the scenes of blowouts!

06-16-2008, 08:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
CanadianRedline Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 246	Nitrogen? Has anyone here toyed with nitrogen filled tires? I have a neighbor who works at a Mazda dealership who tells me that they are filling everything from RX-8's to 'Vettes with nitrogen. Lats longer, better fuel economy etc.. Anyone tried it? __________________ John -------------------------------------------------- '06 Polar Blue/ Biscuit/ Touring/ Hard Top/ Starshield/ Stage II Fast is slow, just quicker!

06-17-2008, 12:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
dstevens 2zz exorcism complete Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: California Posts: 398 Images: 4	No, you can't change the gas laws, so tire pressure still increases with temperature. The idea using nitrogen is to remove the water vapour component from the gas in the tire. In practice I've found that nitrogen gives the same pressure rise with temperature as plain air, but I imagine it depends on humidity. In any case it always seems moot if the tire is mounted with the typical soapy water mix. __________________ -2ZZ +K24 +150hp +118tq +7mpg +LSD -30lbs -CoG +F.bias

06-17-2008, 06:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
fpitas User, Registered Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Leesburg, VA Posts: 1,831	The Straight Dope: Is it better to fill your tires with nitrogen instead of air? __________________ Francis 2006 Chrome Orange Elise: LSD/TC, Nitron SAs with 425/650 springs, BWR 7/8" Front Bar, Eliseparts bumpsteer kit, VF Stage 2, 2bular Header + Sport Cat + 8x24 GT3 Muffler, ECU Tune by Jermaine, Smaay's fuel rail, ACT XT clutch, Saikou Michi dual catch can, Moroso pan, Manly's mount inserts & FF Engine Damper 2000 Black Integra Type R: - 213,000 miles...running again!

06-17-2008, 07:51 AM	#9 (permalink)
xtn McLareghini Bugatterrari Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 6,845	You may maintain a more consistent pressure over different temperatures with a dry gas as compared to a humid gas. Notes: 1. I did NOT say pressure would stay the same regardless of temperature. 2. I did NOT imply that any specific gas expands more or less than air. 3. I DID imply that that water vapor in whatever you fill your tires with can be the biggest culprit in pressure changes with temperature. 4. Using compressed air that's run through a very good dryer is probably just as pressure stable as nitrogen is. The whole reason nitrogen is dry is because when they isolate it they run it through a very good dryer. 5. Some moisture may indeed get into your tire from the soapy-water solution used to set the bead. After it has evaporated, three or four deflate/inflate cycles would exchange most of that humid gas. xtn __________________ 2006 McLareghini Bugatterrari, Storm Titanium... <mods> installed: air horn, Scroth 4-point ASM harnesses, Sector111 halon extinguisher and mounting bracket, Von Hep exhaust and rear panel delete, Pagid brake pads, red Volks CE28n wheels, Toyo RA-1 tires, Nitron SA coilovers, Sector111 (WorksBell) quick-disconnect steering wheel kit. awaiting installation: Scroth "pull-up" lap belts, Sector111 RTD Brace, Tony's heater bypass mod, and dropped steering rack mounting plates. </mods>

06-17-2008, 08:46 AM	#10 (permalink)
Kamran Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Bay area Posts: 127	hmm...I still don't see how my response defied laws of physics.. I thought we were talking about why one would use Nitrogen to fill tires Last edited by Kamran : 06-17-2008 at 08:54 AM.

06-16-2008, 08:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
andykeck Meow talk lotus one day? Join Date: May 2003 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,929 Images: 1	I always fill my tires with a 78% nitrogen mixture.

06-16-2008, 09:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
Kamran Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Bay area Posts: 127	you maintain (fairly) the same tire pressure regardless of the outside temp. Don't believe it gives better fuel economy though.

06-17-2008, 10:56 AM	#14 (permalink)
fuse Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 83	Sort of related...one of the F1 spy scandal with Ferrari and McLaren revelation was "CO2" used in Ferrari tires. Here are some details from Race Car Engineering. Ferrari F2007 Secrets \| F1 \| Racecar Engineering

06-17-2008, 11:10 AM	#16 (permalink)
fuse Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 83	haha! I guess the problem is that it doesn't remove them...when you get a flat or take the tire off the wheel...CO2 returns to atmosphere... The article also states that Ferrari used a mixture of 50% HFC R404A and 50% CO2 rather than CO2 that most the news article had reported. Nitrogen may be very helpful on tracks like California Speedway where you stress the right tires a lot more and usually have to run lower cold tire pressures...where nitrogen can help reduce the difference in pressure from cold to hot.

06-17-2008, 12:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
Scrumpot Live on the edge Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 757	The only advantage I've ever heard for this is that supposedly it retards gradual pressure loss ("slow leak") over time for long-term STREET use, and really does not have any appreciable track advantage. But what do I know? I just used RETARD in a sentence in my post. __________________ '08 Exige-S Club Racer Desnorkelled, Stage-2, HID's, DRL Defeat, Sector111 Tow-hook & Fire Extinguisher, Deeply Fettled Roof S/C Air Intake, Schroth Prof II ASM 4pt Harnesses, RLS Lightweight gunmetal coated intercooler tubes, Saikou-Michi catch-cans, dual-SPAL hi-perf intercooler puller-fans, custom painted engine cover

06-17-2008, 12:28 PM	#19 (permalink)
robains 2007 Exige S Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: CA, Bay Area Posts: 1,820	I just fart in my tires. It will cost you more to use Nitrogen than any possible savings you'd get from fuel economy (assuming you do get any better mpg numbers). In my old race car I used Nitrogen, but to be honest I couldn't tell the difference, maybe because our races were sprint races that last only 20-30 minutes. As for Ferrari F1 mix, I believe Bridgestone made the tire for Ferrari specifically to be used with that gas mixture, unfair advantage?? Maybe, but that is the benefit of building a car for the tires and the tires for a car for essentially one team -- however, I'm sure no such close bond exists between Ferrari and Bridgestone now -- I'm sure __________________ '07 Exige S (Track Pack & LSD) + EFi 550ci injectors + Mahle 9:1 + DRS Port + SuperTech Valves + Weapon R Header + 2.9" pully + TODA Clutch + FF Engine Damper + RLS IC + Greddy catch cans + opened roof slot + RTD brace + Milled steering arms + Larini 8" + FF air intake + Moroso oil pan + Ultradisc 2 piece front/rear + Reverie 1650mm wing + ReVerie front splitter + IQ3 Dash + 4pt ASM + Pioneer AVIC-N2 nav + rear camera + RAC monolites 888s 195/225 + Lotus LSS Hoosier R6 205/225 @ 1921 lbs

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