Nitrogen in Tires? - LotusTalk

mr t · 05-11-2005, 08:43 PM

Hi Everyone,

I saw a 5 second bleep on the local news saying to use nitrogen in your tires for better gas miliage. I did not see the segment so I am wondering what your take on this is.

I called a local tire shop and they said that the machine alone runs about 6K.

Best regards,

mr t

Jimbo · 05-11-2005, 08:48 PM

I haven't heard about increased mileage. The primary benefits are less variation in pressure due to expansion of gas, reduced moisture content means less corrosion on wheels and less oxidation of rubber = prolonged tire life.

Many tire service stores and gas stations are getting these machines.

-Jim

ConeFusion · 05-11-2005, 08:56 PM

Keep in mind that air consists of 78% nitrogen. So using nitrogen instead of air isn't really all that different. As Jimbo already mentioned, the main benefit of using pure nitrogen is that it doesn't contain any moisture, unlike the air we normally use to fill our tires.

sleepless · 05-11-2005, 08:56 PM

The problem is that most tires are mounted using water or a water-based lub on the rims; you get more moisture from that than from the air itself.

Nitrogen for street use is mostly a waste of time and money. Do a search, it has been discussed before.

raggedy1 · 05-11-2005, 08:57 PM

costco advertises nitrogen for their tire services

(not that we'd bring our elises to them, but the family hauler can go...)

LotusLust · 05-11-2005, 09:21 PM

gimmicks based upon lore make money

ChrisH · 05-11-2005, 10:38 PM

Dry air is probably good enough. To get rid of the moisture in the tire from the mounting, just deflate and inflate, take a short drive to mix things up inside and heat up the tires, then deflate and inflate again, etc. Of course, you want a dry day, preferably very cold (cold air contains less moisture).

NMRJock · 05-11-2005, 10:55 PM

You can buy dessicant lines for your Compressor that dry the air. They're made for paint work. I just saw them in the Eastwood Catalog.

ChrisH · 05-11-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMRJock

You can buy dessicant lines for your Compressor that dry the air. They're made for paint work. I just saw them in the Eastwood Catalog.

How much do they cost?

But I have one of those little 12V compressors that you stick in the trunk of your car, as I am sure many others do. There is no easily accessible or obvious air input.

NMRJock · 05-11-2005, 11:00 PM

It goes on the output side of the compressor. I am not at home so I don't have the catalog in front of me. I'll do a quick internet search.

NMRJock · 05-11-2005, 11:05 PM

Here it is:

Dessicant Snake

I have no idea how well it works. I just noticed it the other day and then this thread appeared.

ChrisH · 05-11-2005, 11:19 PM

Just go to eBay and search on desiccant. There are all sorts of different units at various levels of filtering. You will get all sorts of desiccants as well, but you can ignore those. Some include filtering out the oil that gets into the air from the compressor lubricant (which is why I don't use a compressor to blow water out of nooks and crannies on the car - you get oil on the paint). Here is a link to a high end unit:
Air compressor filter and desiccant

Evl · 05-12-2005, 07:02 AM

Has anyone looked into getting a regulator/tank so that you can put N2 from a welding supply place in the tires? While N2 generators aren't cheap, N2 is. It seems to me that not having to worry about pressure changes at the track would be nice.

Stan · 05-12-2005, 07:48 AM

>>>Has anyone looked into getting a regulator/tank so that you can put N2 from a welding supply place in the tires? While N2 generators aren't cheap, N2 is. It seems to me that not having to worry about pressure changes at the track would be nice.<<<

For tire matters you can have your local welding supply place set you up. You can get a small MIG welder sized tank that holds about 60 cubic feet of Nitrogen for around 100 bucks...add a regulator and hose with a shraeder valve and you are set. Refills are around 15 bucks. You absolutely need a regulator, this stuff is pressurized to something like 1800 psi. They use the big tanks at race track events all the time to also run their air tools. At some autocrosses and track events I'd check to make sure that a pressurized tank of this kind is allowed on site. At autocrosses, many groups make someone who shows up at an event with a nitrous tank not only remove it from the car, but get the tank physically off the site, period. Even though "NOS" is not flammable or whatever. Neither is nitrogen. The nitrogen machines that some places use apparently separates it from the local air and so generates the nitrogen on the spot.

TECK · 05-12-2005, 08:28 AM

The other benefit I have heard about is that nitrogen is less sensitive to temperature changes so that tire pressure changes less between cool to hot conditions - this maybe helpful at the track.

sleepless · 05-12-2005, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TECK

The other benefit I have heard about is that nitrogen is less sensitive to temperature changes so that tire pressure changes less between cool to hot conditions - this maybe helpful at the track.

That is due to it being dry; it is the moisture in air that makes it sensitive to temps.

fastliz · 05-12-2005, 08:33 AM

The easy and cheaper way would be to get a scuba tank and have it filled with air at the scuba shop. This is exactly what I use. The air is clean and dry as it is meant to be breathed by humans at depth. One 80 cu. ft. tank will last a LONG time.

Mike

ConeFusion · 05-12-2005, 08:46 AM

About bringing nitrogen tanks to autocross events, the rule for SCCA Solo II events is: "Pressurized gas and air bottles with a pressure in excess of 200 psi must have a protective structure around their gauge and valves." This is a mandatory rule that applies to all SCCA sanctioned events.

It has been a long time since I had physics classes, but unless I forgot everything, the tire pressure will still increase with temperature when using pure nitrogen. The ideal gas law says that PV = nRT. Since the volume and amount of gas are constant, the pressure is proportional to the absolute temperature.

John Stimson · 05-12-2005, 10:08 AM

Reto, you are correct about nitrogen and the other major components of air following the same pressure/temperature relationship. However, it's the moisture in the air that makes the difference. Water is a liquid in the temperature range that tires operate in, but it always gives off vapor. The pressure of that vapor when evaporation is in equilibrium with condensation depends on the temperature.

Water in your tire can go from almost all liquid at ambient temperature to almost all gas with really hot tires (over 200 degrees).

ConeFusion · 05-12-2005, 10:33 AM

Absolutely. I probably should have quoted the posts I was responding to. A couple of people had suggested that the pressure would not change with temperature if you used nitrogen. The point I was trying to make was that it would still change, just less than with air containing moisture.

05-11-2005, 08:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
mr t Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 204	Nitrogen in Tires? Hi Everyone, I saw a 5 second bleep on the local news saying to use nitrogen in your tires for better gas miliage. I did not see the segment so I am wondering what your take on this is. I called a local tire shop and they said that the machine alone runs about 6K. Best regards, mr t

05-11-2005, 08:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Jimbo Kaidan Autosport Join Date: May 2004 Location: Near Philadelphia PA Posts: 402	I haven't heard about increased mileage. The primary benefits are less variation in pressure due to expansion of gas, reduced moisture content means less corrosion on wheels and less oxidation of rubber = prolonged tire life. Many tire service stores and gas stations are getting these machines. -Jim __________________ 2005 Laser Blue Elise, 1992 NSX Red/Black 2005 BMW F650cs, 1976 Honda Accord

05-11-2005, 08:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
ConeFusion Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,579	Keep in mind that air consists of 78% nitrogen. So using nitrogen instead of air isn't really all that different. As Jimbo already mentioned, the main benefit of using pure nitrogen is that it doesn't contain any moisture, unlike the air we normally use to fill our tires. __________________ Reto 2005 Lotus Elise (yellow, sport pack), #94 SS 2005 Nissan Xterra (LSV)

05-11-2005, 08:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
sleepless Elise Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,224	The problem is that most tires are mounted using water or a water-based lub on the rims; you get more moisture from that than from the air itself. Nitrogen for street use is mostly a waste of time and money. Do a search, it has been discussed before. __________________ Pete 05 Lotus Elise \| 06 Porsche Boxster S \| 97 Porsche Turbo

05-11-2005, 08:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
raggedy1 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: belmont Posts: 3,822	costco advertises nitrogen for their tire services (not that we'd bring our elises to them, but the family hauler can go...) __________________ It's Delux son, Delux. It's not that hard. http://itsdeluxson.com/

05-11-2005, 09:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
LotusLust Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: da woods of tn Posts: 3,662	gimmicks based upon lore make money __________________ Storm Titanium, LSS, touring, hard top. my other car is a ...oh yeah i remember the other car...a spyder club111 member. i tried to buy a lower spot and become member #13 but was spurned! "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" -benjamin franklin

05-11-2005, 10:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
ChrisH Mountain Road Nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ramona,CA Posts: 2,291	Dry air is probably good enough. To get rid of the moisture in the tire from the mounting, just deflate and inflate, take a short drive to mix things up inside and heat up the tires, then deflate and inflate again, etc. Of course, you want a dry day, preferably very cold (cold air contains less moisture).

05-11-2005, 10:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
NMRJock A smile a mile. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 3,567	You can buy dessicant lines for your Compressor that dry the air. They're made for paint work. I just saw them in the Eastwood Catalog. __________________ Paul Parkanzky Magnetic Blue with Biscuit Touring, LSS, Starshield

05-11-2005, 11:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
NMRJock A smile a mile. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 3,567	It goes on the output side of the compressor. I am not at home so I don't have the catalog in front of me. I'll do a quick internet search. __________________ Paul Parkanzky Magnetic Blue with Biscuit Touring, LSS, Starshield

05-11-2005, 11:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
NMRJock A smile a mile. Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Grand Rapids, MI Posts: 3,567	Here it is: Dessicant Snake I have no idea how well it works. I just noticed it the other day and then this thread appeared. __________________ Paul Parkanzky Magnetic Blue with Biscuit Touring, LSS, Starshield

05-11-2005, 11:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
ChrisH Mountain Road Nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ramona,CA Posts: 2,291	Just go to eBay and search on desiccant. There are all sorts of different units at various levels of filtering. You will get all sorts of desiccants as well, but you can ignore those. Some include filtering out the oil that gets into the air from the compressor lubricant (which is why I don't use a compressor to blow water out of nooks and crannies on the car - you get oil on the paint). Here is a link to a high end unit: Air compressor filter and desiccant

05-12-2005, 07:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
Evl His Impatientness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,723	Has anyone looked into getting a regulator/tank so that you can put N2 from a welding supply place in the tires? While N2 generators aren't cheap, N2 is. It seems to me that not having to worry about pressure changes at the track would be nice. __________________ www.agentsofentropy.com

05-12-2005, 07:48 AM	#14 (permalink)
Stan - Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,927	>>>Has anyone looked into getting a regulator/tank so that you can put N2 from a welding supply place in the tires? While N2 generators aren't cheap, N2 is. It seems to me that not having to worry about pressure changes at the track would be nice.<<< For tire matters you can have your local welding supply place set you up. You can get a small MIG welder sized tank that holds about 60 cubic feet of Nitrogen for around 100 bucks...add a regulator and hose with a shraeder valve and you are set. Refills are around 15 bucks. You absolutely need a regulator, this stuff is pressurized to something like 1800 psi. They use the big tanks at race track events all the time to also run their air tools. At some autocrosses and track events I'd check to make sure that a pressurized tank of this kind is allowed on site. At autocrosses, many groups make someone who shows up at an event with a nitrous tank not only remove it from the car, but get the tank physically off the site, period. Even though "NOS" is not flammable or whatever. Neither is nitrogen. The nitrogen machines that some places use apparently separates it from the local air and so generates the nitrogen on the spot.

05-12-2005, 08:28 AM	#15 (permalink)
TECK It's the Journey Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Fairfield County Connecticut Posts: 183	Another benefit The other benefit I have heard about is that nitrogen is less sensitive to temperature changes so that tire pressure changes less between cool to hot conditions - this maybe helpful at the track.

05-12-2005, 08:33 AM	#17 (permalink)
fastliz formerly known as fastwrx Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 1,495	The easy and cheaper way would be to get a scuba tank and have it filled with air at the scuba shop. This is exactly what I use. The air is clean and dry as it is meant to be breathed by humans at depth. One 80 cu. ft. tank will last a LONG time. Mike __________________ The "car-tist" formerly known as Fastwrx! 2004 Subaru WRX STi 2005 Lotus Elise CO, LSS, Hardtop, Starshield - Got it!!

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05-12-2005, 08:46 AM	#18 (permalink)
ConeFusion Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,579	About bringing nitrogen tanks to autocross events, the rule for SCCA Solo II events is: "Pressurized gas and air bottles with a pressure in excess of 200 psi must have a protective structure around their gauge and valves." This is a mandatory rule that applies to all SCCA sanctioned events. It has been a long time since I had physics classes, but unless I forgot everything, the tire pressure will still increase with temperature when using pure nitrogen. The ideal gas law says that PV = nRT. Since the volume and amount of gas are constant, the pressure is proportional to the absolute temperature. __________________ Reto 2005 Lotus Elise (yellow, sport pack), #94 SS 2005 Nissan Xterra (LSV)

05-12-2005, 10:08 AM	#19 (permalink)
John Stimson Interloper Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 1,480	Reto, you are correct about nitrogen and the other major components of air following the same pressure/temperature relationship. However, it's the moisture in the air that makes the difference. Water is a liquid in the temperature range that tires operate in, but it always gives off vapor. The pressure of that vapor when evaporation is in equilibrium with condensation depends on the temperature. Water in your tire can go from almost all liquid at ambient temperature to almost all gas with really hot tires (over 200 degrees). __________________ 2005 S2000 #42as

05-12-2005, 10:33 AM	#20 (permalink)
ConeFusion Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 1,579	Absolutely. I probably should have quoted the posts I was responding to. A couple of people had suggested that the pressure would not change with temperature if you used nitrogen. The point I was trying to make was that it would still change, just less than with air containing moisture. __________________ Reto 2005 Lotus Elise (yellow, sport pack), #94 SS 2005 Nissan Xterra (LSV)