Road and Track Tests -- Braking

[jlr]

Recently, in the March issue of R&T -- where the editors chose the "best all around sports car" -- the Elise was tested as braking from 60-0 in 115 ft and 80-0 in 203 ft. In my opinion, these aren't great numbers for a sub-2000 lb car, and they confirm my experience of feeling like the Elise doesn't possess enough braking power to match its cornering and acceleration. However, R&T had previously (8-04) tested the Elise and came up with a R&T road test summary record of 60-0 in 105 ft and 80-0 in 188 ft (beaten only by the Carrera S). What is the deal with these differing test results?

And, does anyone else think the Elise lacks really good brakes (we all know they're a little mushy)? I've had other cars -- Porsches included -- that seemed like the hand of God was stopping the car, the brakes were so incredible. I know some have pointed out that the Elise is so light, it doesn't feel the same as other heavier cars when braking. Maybe so, but I get tire chirp very quickly and it seems to be coming from one side of the car before the other (maybe this is normal -- you tell me). I think I remember reading/hearing somewhere that Lotus designed the ABS so as not to intervene too significantly -- to only aid the driver in the wet to avoid locking the tires -- so as too require him/her to learn to brake the old fashioned way, by finding the threshhold of adhesion under hard braking.

Thanks for any input.

[Stan]

The Elise has wonderful brakes. You can improve the subjective action a bit by following the suggestions I've made in prior posts (search). Part of what you may be experiencing is the amount of stop for initial pedal pressure. This is not the same as all out braking. It can fool folks who get a front big brake kit that has not been properly engineered (a huge percentage of them). They feel like you can stop like crazy as you feed in more brake yet may have less than stock braking power when all-out. There was (may still be up) and article and chart talking about this at the Stoptech site. Elise brakes run much cooler than those on it's competitors.

Test results can vary. The 115 feet in that test is the worst result I have seen for the Elise, for whatever reason. Most are at or near 100 feet. Even a 115 foot stop is quite good. Note that the difference between a 115 and a 100 foot stopping distance from 60 MPH can often be related to the final 5-10 MPH when ABS has a very tough time. Seldom in sport driving do we come to 0 MPH stops. It's all snubs: braking from one speed to another speed before entering a turn.

[jlr]

Sorry Stan, but I couldn't find those posts under a search. You may be right, though, about objective versus subjective data. Using street sights, etc. as brake markers I don't think I'm stopping any later than I have with other cars, but it doesn't feel as impressive. Plus, when I engage in hard braking between turns, the tire chirp/loss of adhesion is somewhat disconcerting to me. I've driven Porsches at the track all day long and I've never experienced that kind of delicate braking. Maybe I've been spoiled by ABS. The ABS on the Elise works differently, right?

[djl330ci]

I changed over to Raybestos race pads and found that the brakes are capable of huge bite and no appreciable fade. I threw on some ss brake lines as well, although they contribute minmal change to the otherwise unfortunate pedel travel.

[Goose]

I'd give yourself a little more time in the Elise before deciding on the brake performance. As you know, Porsche is famous for its brake performance (I consider this to be one of the marque's geatest strengths).

The Elise also has great brakes, but we're dealing with two very different approaches to the problem. The Porsche has massive brakes to offset the mass of the car; the net result being a very solid, confidence-inspiring feel. In the Elise, the braking system (along with the rest of the car) is far more lightweight. While effective, the setup can feel quite unsubstantial (cheap) by comparison. All part of the "Colin Chapman ethos", I'm afraid.

Give the stock brakes/lines/pads some time -- if only to establish a baseline. If you're still unhappy, then start tinkering. In addition to gaining familiarity with the stock system, waiting will let others try various pads/etc to determine what works best.

[Stan]

>>>Sorry Stan, but I couldn't find those posts under a search. You may be right, though, about objective versus subjective data. Using street sights, etc. as brake markers I don't think I'm stopping any later than I have with other cars, but it doesn't feel as impressive. Plus, when I engage in hard braking between turns, the tire chirp/loss of adhesion is somewhat disconcerting to me. I've driven Porsches at the track all day long and I've never experienced that kind of delicate braking. Maybe I've been spoiled by ABS. The ABS on the Elise works differently, right?<<<

You can try searching for brake pedal stuff and my name and stuff should pop out. You can adjust the pushrod length to raise the pedal height for better HNT downshifts and also better response. That made it into the service manual! You can firm up the squishey rubber bush by tightening it's retaining bolt, but read about this first. You can also lower the height of the gas pedal.

I'm used to E30 M3 and air cooled 911 brakes. The Elise brakes are much lighter in effort. The braking action is fantastic stock when driving hard. The car loves trail braking. If you're near CT you can try out my car to see what proper brake action is like to be positive your car is behaving normally. Or maybe test drive a car or two at your dealer. I can duplicate the excellent braking action the magazines found...confirming this with my GPS data logger. My pedal has noticeably less initial slop than the as-delivered action. The Elise should respond well to dropping in a master cylinder one size larger in diameter. Maybe two! Firmer pedal with reduced travel. I prefer high pedal effort brick wall pedals that don't have much travel..you just change the applied pressure more or less.

Also remember that the Elise rotor temps were just measured on the track by an Elisetalker and the temps are quite low compared to most cars. Really low. This means that if you want to change pads, you can't go by your familiar rules of thumb. Because the low temp friction is very important compare to competitive cars. For example the decent but dusty street pads are FF and grip well from ambient. A mild upgrade pad like an R4S that needs little warm up on heavier cars needs more warm up on an Elise.

[shay2nak]

Maybe from the 1st test to the all around competition, the car's brakes were mashed. Who knows what kind of breaking abuse that car has been through since the first test. I remember driving a 120 hp Elise and the dealer told me to brake earlier than usual because people had really done a number on the brakes and they were weak and felt wooden.

If it wasn't for this, I'm sure the Elise would have come 1st in performance and maybe moved up a spot in the final rankings.

[jlr]

Thanks guys, I'll keep working on my technique and look for improvement. One neat thing about the Elise is how close it feels to a small formula car. Braking in the Elise feels a little like the Skip Barber formula cars I've driven many many moons ago. You've got to press the pedal hard enough to find the threshhold, then let up slightly, otherwise you set off the ABS which -- with the Elise -- will not guarantee you the best stopping distance. I suppose this is a more traditional set up. I guess I've just been spoiled by the idiot-proof brakes on Porsches. Being a driving fool, that makes it kind of hard...

[TECK]

I am with jlr on this one. If any of you have visted the MSN auto review site or carreview.com you'll see I write about how the Elise drives very much like a junior formula race car. All sensations are extremely direct and mechanical feeling. There are cars that that post better measurements than the Elise but none I have ever driven that feel more alive, more responsive, more fun.

I haven't tracked my car yet but some aggressive street stops tell me braking is strong and very controlable but the mushy pedal feel does not instill confidence.

I have posted my thoughts about R&T's March issue test results elsewhere on this site but a significant factor in braking is tires. How many heat cycles had the tested Elise's tires been through? Maybe enough that they were not as sticky as they might have been?

And finally, Porsche does brakes like nobody's business. But I think Lotus has made the right trade offs. Bigger brakes might give a different feel and decrease straight line/panic stopping distances but it would add unsprung weight - a major enemy of great handling.

[Nick]

Road and Track in August 2004 put the stopping distance at 105. Six feet shorter than the GT3. Guess it all depends on the tire condition, surface of the track and the driver.

have fun

Nick

[bogie]

and if you are "chiping the tyres" then the brakes are not the weak point in youre set-up - its the tyres....put some R rated rubber on, then go test the brakes again......then do a back to back with a Porker on a track and see who has brakes left after 10 laps