Tire damage - LotusTalk

RichardNHCooper · 10-11-2009, 08:09 AM

I fitted a set of Toyo R888 and drove for about 30 minutes and this happened. It was repaired immediately with a "SafeSeal" repair plug. My question is, can I use it at a track day with little or no risk or have I just blown $A440 and have to replace it?

Simba · 10-11-2009, 08:44 AM

Personally, I'd never used a repaired tire on a track, nor on the street for any amount of time. TireRack, et al, have road hazard coverage available. Worth every penny.

JLSELISE · 10-11-2009, 09:27 AM

Plug should only be used as temp repair and never for high-speed applications. But damage may be repairable and the tire could be perfectly serviceable with properly applied internal patch. A careful internal inspection is required.

DeanG · 10-11-2009, 09:53 AM

It pains me when I see Lotus owners/drivers try to drive at speed on the cheep. Patched tires, worn out tires, unbalanced tires, half used brake pads, warped disks, dime store brake fluid, brake fluid older than 6 months do not belong on a car taken on the track.

I believe a car should be well prepared for a track session. To me the above list is the bare minimum. We owe ourselves and the others at a track event a properly prepared car.

I don't "do" many track days but I have seen many people towed or limp home from them.

Lets be safe out there.

tireshoppe · 10-11-2009, 05:56 PM

The tire takes a lot of stress on the track. Think of it like a piece of paper and you put a hole in it. If you pull at it, the paper will most likely tear at the hole. The tire ply's are very strong and woven together but you just put a weak point where it takes a lot of stress. Is the car worth less than the tire?
More important though, is a Radial tire should NEVER be repaired with an external plug. The only proper repair is to patch the inside.
Joe
TreadZone

Aedo · 10-11-2009, 06:08 PM

Hi Richard - is the "SafeSeal" an internally applied patch and who did it? Tyres can be repaired and used safely but an internal inspection is required to ensure no belts were damaged by the nail moving inside the tyre.

So the answer isn't yes or no it is more info required

One good thing though is that since the tyre is new if you do need to replace it you only have to replace one!

As for the result from a poll on LT - well voters aren't having to reach into their own pocket for starters so replace is going to win! Also this is essentially America where terror of litigation outweighs good engineering decision making IMHO (see many threads on replacing rather than repairing bodywork).

Seb · 10-11-2009, 06:16 PM

I went 144mph (many times) on a plugged tire. No problems.

fitfan · 10-11-2009, 06:59 PM

i would not...

its all on you, to accept a level of risk.

a plug on track? no way... ANY organization worth tracking with tell you that - deffinatly not allowed.

inside patch... MMMmmmm.... i suppose its debatable, me? not on a track event (yeah i would drive it around on the street no prob.). the structure of the tire has been damaged, no matter if you "stop the air leaking out" the high temps (repeateded), high forces on the tire of a track day are way beyond what the tire will experiance on the street, and speed in a straight line is not a fair comparision at all... i mean - just look at tire after a session, the roll, temp, graining... pretty extreem.

you can not undo the structural damage to the tire. the risk increases as the tire is exposed to more and more extreem conditions - even an undamaged tire will eventaully fail if worked beyond its limits... a damage tire will have lower limits - what are thoose limits? who knows, but do you want to be the one that finds out?

is a couple hundred dollars worth the risk of a blow out on track, and the potential for property and bodily damage? to you, and maybe someone else?

...up to you

you could patch it have no problems... but that might just mean you were lucky.. not that a patch is idealy safe.

apk919 · 10-11-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fitfan

i would not...

its all on you, to accept a level of risk.

a plug on track? no way... ANY organization worth tracking with tell you that - deffinatly not allowed.

inside patch... MMMmmmm.... i suppose its debatable, me? not on a track event (yeah i would drive it around on the street no prob.). the structure of the tire has been damaged, no matter if you "stop the air leaking out" the high temps (repeateded), high forces on the tire of a track day are way beyond what the tire will experiance on the street, and speed in a straight line is not a fair comparision at all... i mean - just look at tire after a session, the roll, temp, graining... pretty extreem.

you can not undo the structural damage to the tire. the risk increases as the tire is exposed to more and more extreem conditions - even an undamaged tire will eventaully fail if worked beyond its limits... a damage tire will have lower limits - what are thoose limits? who knows, but do you want to be the one that finds out?

is a couple hundred dollars worth the risk of a blow out on track, and the potential for property and bodily damage? to you, and maybe someone else?

...up to you

you could patch it have no problems... but that might just mean you were lucky.. not that a patch is idealy safe.

+1

Just take a look at a good photo of a car in a high-G corner... the bottom of the tire (especially the sidewall) is very deformed, while the top of the tire looks completely normal. Consider that at >100mph, the tire is rotating more than 20 times a second... (and so goes from very deformed to relaxed 20 times a second as well). How well do you think a patch is going to put up with that type of stress?

Seb · 10-11-2009, 08:55 PM

As long as the object didn't puncture the tire near the shoulder, you're fine.

tvacc · 10-11-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seb

As long as the object didn't puncture the tire near the shoulder, you're fine.

I agree. I have driven on Yokos in my Seven and after the event, I had cord showing thru. Now if money is no object, then buy new tires. But I have done track days on plugged tires. Never had a problem.

Now I am not a tire expert...only my experience. But then I Drive Fast and Take Chances....

Dragon · 10-12-2009, 03:17 AM

Wouldn't bother me at all to run on a plugged tire.

Phill B · 10-12-2009, 03:54 AM

Richard, I've had both a Yokohama O48 and Kumho V70A patched and plugged when near new with similar damage and did plenty of track and road time on them afterwards. Of course, my car is nowhere as quick as yours in a straight line but around corners...

tireshoppe · 10-12-2009, 04:43 AM

The question that I have, is if the tire fails that you told him to repair would you accept liability?

Aedo · 10-12-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tireshoppe

The question that I have, is if the tire fails that you told him to repair would you accept liability?

Do you ever patch tyres? If so what are the restrictions on doing so?

tireshoppe · 10-13-2009, 02:18 AM

At our retail stores we patch tires for highway use all the time. The only proper repair is to dismount the tire. Inspect the inside of the tire to be sure there is no other damage. Then install a Plug Patch from the inside out.
I've dismounted tires that have been plugged from the outside and the inner liner is worn off to the sidewall ply's from driving low on air. I also saw a tire that was plugged and the nail rubbed into the sidewall ply's that it later caused a bubble on the sidewall. Both are a "catostrophic air loss" situation.
I don't take any repair supplies to the track and I don't know of any other "track support dealers" that do.
Let me ask the question another way. Would you pass someone on the outside of a turn next to a tire that was repaired?
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, it's something that I've seen from being in the business and know it's just a matter of time until there's a repaired tire that fails. I know many racers have done it without a problem. I know tires cost a lot and you don't want to throw them away with a lot of tread. But if it fails, and it could, it could cost a lot more than a tire and I hope only to the car.
Joe
TreadZone

toedrag · 10-13-2009, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardNHCooper

can I use it at a track day with little or no risk or have I just blown $A440 and have to replace it?

buying track insurance, if available for your event, would likely be cheaper than buying a new tire. That will at least cover your financial risk.

Can't really help you on the personal risk. Good luck.

RichardNHCooper · 10-13-2009, 06:07 AM

Thanks guys but upon inspection there was belt damage so it has been thrown out. Ah well as someone said look on the bright side, I only need to buy one !!!!!!

Tracktimeplz · 10-13-2009, 06:56 AM

Im sorry but the heat the tire will be exposed to, as well as pressure stresses from the constant load shifting, it would seem unsafe to track that tire. Unsafe to you, and others on the track with you.

Is your car, and more important, your LIFE worth 300 bucks? Why take the risk

tvacc · 10-13-2009, 07:34 AM

I got th earlier post about looking at the tire on my PDA.. I did not have a chance to reply till now and I was going to suggest that his advice was spot on especially since he does this all the time and has seen different damages once he got inside the tire.

Good call.

View Poll Results: Is this repaired tire safe and usable on trackdays
Yes it should be fine	11	42.31%
Not safe to use at all	15	57.69%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

10-11-2009, 08:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
RichardNHCooper Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Perth, western Australia Posts: 51	Tire damage I fitted a set of Toyo R888 and drove for about 30 minutes and this happened. It was repaired immediately with a "SafeSeal" repair plug. My question is, can I use it at a track day with little or no risk or have I just blown $A440 and have to replace it? __________________ 2006 111R Elise,VF stg 1 supercharged,HIDs,Harness bar, LETSLA,Nitrons, Ferodo DS 2500,FF engine damper. Saikou Michi catch cans.Toyota MWR Transmission Lotus 6-spd 3.9:1 LSD Uprated clutch. Last edited by RichardNHCooper : 10-14-2009 at 05:41 AM.

10-11-2009, 09:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
JLSELISE Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Livermore, CA Posts: 489	Plug should only be used as temp repair and never for high-speed applications. But damage may be repairable and the tire could be perfectly serviceable with properly applied internal patch. A careful internal inspection is required. __________________ Joel '67 S3 Elan dhc (owned since 1970) '06 Audi A3 3.2 '04 Noble M12 (380 rwhp)

10-11-2009, 09:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
DeanG Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 723	It pains me when... It pains me when I see Lotus owners/drivers try to drive at speed on the cheep. Patched tires, worn out tires, unbalanced tires, half used brake pads, warped disks, dime store brake fluid, brake fluid older than 6 months do not belong on a car taken on the track. I believe a car should be well prepared for a track session. To me the above list is the bare minimum. We owe ourselves and the others at a track event a properly prepared car. I don't "do" many track days but I have seen many people towed or limp home from them. Lets be safe out there.

10-11-2009, 05:56 PM	#5 (permalink)
tireshoppe Elise Driver Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 117	The tire takes a lot of stress on the track. Think of it like a piece of paper and you put a hole in it. If you pull at it, the paper will most likely tear at the hole. The tire ply's are very strong and woven together but you just put a weak point where it takes a lot of stress. Is the car worth less than the tire? More important though, is a Radial tire should NEVER be repaired with an external plug. The only proper repair is to patch the inside. Joe TreadZone __________________ My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it!

10-11-2009, 08:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
Simba 2/3 hp to the paws. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NY Posts: 497	Personally, I'd never used a repaired tire on a track, nor on the street for any amount of time. TireRack, et al, have road hazard coverage available. Worth every penny.

10-11-2009, 06:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
Aedo anglophile in exile Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 2,570 Images: 88	Hi Richard - is the "SafeSeal" an internally applied patch and who did it? Tyres can be repaired and used safely but an internal inspection is required to ensure no belts were damaged by the nail moving inside the tyre. So the answer isn't yes or no it is more info required One good thing though is that since the tyre is new if you do need to replace it you only have to replace one! As for the result from a poll on LT - well voters aren't having to reach into their own pocket for starters so replace is going to win! Also this is essentially America where terror of litigation outweighs good engineering decision making IMHO (see many threads on replacing rather than repairing bodywork).

10-11-2009, 06:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Seb <3 QR25DE Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 753	I went 144mph (many times) on a plugged tire. No problems. Last edited by Seb : 10-11-2009 at 07:04 PM.

10-11-2009, 06:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
fitfan Regurgitated User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Diego! Posts: 4,095	i would not... its all on you, to accept a level of risk. a plug on track? no way... ANY organization worth tracking with tell you that - deffinatly not allowed. inside patch... MMMmmmm.... i suppose its debatable, me? not on a track event (yeah i would drive it around on the street no prob.). the structure of the tire has been damaged, no matter if you "stop the air leaking out" the high temps (repeateded), high forces on the tire of a track day are way beyond what the tire will experiance on the street, and speed in a straight line is not a fair comparision at all... i mean - just look at tire after a session, the roll, temp, graining... pretty extreem. you can not undo the structural damage to the tire. the risk increases as the tire is exposed to more and more extreem conditions - even an undamaged tire will eventaully fail if worked beyond its limits... a damage tire will have lower limits - what are thoose limits? who knows, but do you want to be the one that finds out? is a couple hundred dollars worth the risk of a blow out on track, and the potential for property and bodily damage? to you, and maybe someone else? ...up to you you could patch it have no problems... but that might just mean you were lucky.. not that a patch is idealy safe. __________________ Driving it around!

10-11-2009, 08:55 PM	#10 (permalink)
Seb <3 QR25DE Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 753	As long as the object didn't puncture the tire near the shoulder, you're fine.

10-12-2009, 03:17 AM	#12 (permalink)
Dragon Hydrocarbons Rule Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Okinawa Japan Posts: 1,747 Images: 2	Wouldn't bother me at all to run on a plugged tire. __________________ 2006 Exige; BWR Supercharger, Adj Sway Bar, Ohlins Suspension, BSK Oil Catch Can, Moroso Oil Pan, ORC Clutch, Custom Exhaust, Black Volk Racing CE28N's w/ Toyo R1R's, 2 piece rotors, Pagid Blue Pads, BSK Wet Carbon (Side Skirts, Front Lip Spoiler, Gas Cap Cover, Center Console, Door Panels), Dry Carbon rear Diffuser, Harness Bar, BWR Gauge Mount, OMP Superquadro steering wheel, LETSLA Short Shifter, V2arms, Rear Tow Link Brace, RLS Battery Bracket, BOE Tow Bar, Stickers.

10-12-2009, 03:54 AM	#13 (permalink)
Phill B Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 280	Richard, I've had both a Yokohama O48 and Kumho V70A patched and plugged when near new with similar damage and did plenty of track and road time on them afterwards. Of course, my car is nowhere as quick as yours in a straight line but around corners...

10-12-2009, 04:43 AM	#14 (permalink)
tireshoppe Elise Driver Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 117	The question that I have, is if the tire fails that you told him to repair would you accept liability? __________________ My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it!

10-13-2009, 02:18 AM	#16 (permalink)
tireshoppe Elise Driver Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 117	At our retail stores we patch tires for highway use all the time. The only proper repair is to dismount the tire. Inspect the inside of the tire to be sure there is no other damage. Then install a Plug Patch from the inside out. I've dismounted tires that have been plugged from the outside and the inner liner is worn off to the sidewall ply's from driving low on air. I also saw a tire that was plugged and the nail rubbed into the sidewall ply's that it later caused a bubble on the sidewall. Both are a "catostrophic air loss" situation. I don't take any repair supplies to the track and I don't know of any other "track support dealers" that do. Let me ask the question another way. Would you pass someone on the outside of a turn next to a tire that was repaired? I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, it's something that I've seen from being in the business and know it's just a matter of time until there's a repaired tire that fails. I know many racers have done it without a problem. I know tires cost a lot and you don't want to throw them away with a lot of tread. But if it fails, and it could, it could cost a lot more than a tire and I hope only to the car. Joe TreadZone __________________ My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it!

10-13-2009, 06:07 AM	#18 (permalink)
RichardNHCooper Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Perth, western Australia Posts: 51	Thanks guys but upon inspection there was belt damage so it has been thrown out. Ah well as someone said look on the bright side, I only need to buy one !!!!!! __________________ 2006 111R Elise,VF stg 1 supercharged,HIDs,Harness bar, LETSLA,Nitrons, Ferodo DS 2500,FF engine damper. Saikou Michi catch cans.Toyota MWR Transmission Lotus 6-spd 3.9:1 LSD Uprated clutch.

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10-13-2009, 06:56 AM	#19 (permalink)
Tracktimeplz Race lines on the mind Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Northwest Florida Posts: 1,085	Im sorry but the heat the tire will be exposed to, as well as pressure stresses from the constant load shifting, it would seem unsafe to track that tire. Unsafe to you, and others on the track with you. Is your car, and more important, your LIFE worth 300 bucks? Why take the risk __________________ 2003 Honda S2000 - Suzuka Blue 2005 Magnetic Blue Elise Forcefed 275 turbo - Sold 05/20/09

10-13-2009, 07:34 AM	#20 (permalink)
tvacc Head LOONY Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 2,225	I got th earlier post about looking at the tire on my PDA.. I did not have a chance to reply till now and I was going to suggest that his advice was spot on especially since he does this all the time and has seen different damages once he got inside the tire. Good call. __________________ Tony Vaccaro 2005 Ardent Red, Katana Supercharger, Touring, Hardtop, Driving Lights, HIDs, Rear Window Shield, Red Mounts, Laser Shifters, V1, LETSLA Shifter, www.lotusowners.com LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) and the Church of the HolyLotus Supplier of Polycarbonate Shield for Rear Window IN STOCK , Drive Fast Take Chances