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Old 01-19-2011, 03:48 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Ah -- you threw me a curve, Fred, and I whiffed. After I thought it about it some more, I realized you were talking about gearing and meant a final-drive swap would be necessary. But, I figured there were taller final drives available. If there aren't, then that will probably ground the 2-litre option for me.
I think if you were going to go with a 2.0L NA I would consider the K20 swap. Lots of aftermarket and they rev those suckers to 10k all the time. If I was going on the cheap, I would fix the valvesprings, throw in CAMs and buy an EFI ECU. You can re-use that with any future upgrades. If I was doing it to win, I would go with BOE Revolution and de-stroke it, but clearly this is the most expensive option.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:57 PM   #42 (permalink)
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If the 'any engine mfg' rule ultimately passes, it will open up some interesting options for us. Regardless, though, to paraphrase Dennis Miller, 'I'd rather have Lindsey Lohan perfoming my Lasic surgery, than put a Honda engine in my Exige.'
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:15 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Current hoosier pdf has P275/45ZR16 at 10.3 inch tread width. (for 9" wheel) and 225/45R15 is listed as 9.0 tread width

One thing I wonder about is whether more rubber in the front would really help. At some point more rubber must mean cooler rubber. In cold weather, the issue always seems to be one of getting the tire warm enough. I have found that I run much faster on warm days already, and more rubber might not be good for that.

However I in the last couple events dropped a bunch of tire pressure at the end of last year since I found out I was running too high (with the help of a more experienced auto-crosser), so that might have been the issue too.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:16 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Current hoosier pdf has P275/45ZR16 at 10.3 inch tread width. (for 9" wheel) and 225/45R15 is listed as 9.0 tread width

One thing I wonder about is whether more rubber in the front would really help. At some point more rubber must mean cooler rubber. In cold weather, the issue always seems to be one of getting the tire warm enough. I have found that I run much faster on warm days already, and more rubber might not be good for that.

However I in the last couple events dropped a bunch of tire pressure at the end of last year since I found out I was running too high (with the help of a more experienced auto-crosser), so that might have been the issue too.
For the front the 245/45R16 and 275/45R16s are too tall. 245 is kinda interesting for the rear. I don't think the front can get too wide. I run pretty happily with 10" wide front slicks.....
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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For a fully competitive build, I would call up MonkeyWrench and have Matt make you a 1.5L de-stroked crank. Then put the BOE TVS on it with 10.5:1 and e85. With Ferrea springs, valves, circuitworks oilpump gear, and good oil you could spin the motor to 10k rpm, fixing the C64 gearing issue. Then cut the fenders to run 275/35R15 front and 274/40R17Rears. Not that I've thought about it.....
Was re-reading this thread and noticed this... I expect you just mean you wish that 2nd gear was a bit taller and went to 75mph?
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:58 AM   #46 (permalink)
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2013 Update

Can someone help verify the weight rules for 2013 for me.
By my calculations I need to be 2,120 with 275's.

1,600 Lbs base plus 225 lbs per liter (200 base +25 for mid engine) X 3.2 liters (1.8 plus 1.4 for SC) for a total of 2,120#'s.

I will need to add about 220-230 lbs of ballast to make weight. The current rules state

"Ballast may be added. Ballast must be a maximum of 50 lbs. per
segment. It must be securely mounted within the bodywork."
What does per segment mean? Can I just seat belt in my weight set as long as they are under 50 lbs each? I'm not planning to stay in the class but may want to run in it for the San Diego National tour due to a lack of a class in SSP.
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Old 03-17-2013, 12:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Wider rubber=Better, formula 1 cars are lighter AND have wider rubber.
Last I checked swapping to a honda engine moves you to XP class. (until the rules change).
A segment, means a solid part. No more than 50 pounds chunks of lead/gold/depleted Uranium.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:24 PM   #48 (permalink)
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The best way to do ballast is with a stainless steel belly pan. As a "permanent" part of the car (not ballast), it should not be at issue with the mount within the bodywork requirement.

My $.02 regarding rules interpretation.

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Old 03-19-2013, 03:55 PM   #49 (permalink)
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If the rules do not specifically authorize a modification, it is not permitted.
Belly pans are not mentioned in the rules for SSM or it's inherited classes and therefore may not be changed as far as I am aware. This is particularly conspicuous since they are explicitly mentioned in Prepared, Modifed, Formula and Kart rules. Don't modify your belly pan. Same goes for the diffuser except that ST allows you to modify it to accommodate a trailer hitch so long as there is no net weight reduction.

Classes below prepared are generally not supposed to be seeking to create suction under the car (since sudden loss of said suction can be dangerous ).
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Old 04-09-2013, 08:59 AM   #50 (permalink)
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As I just wanted to run SSM for the San Diego Tour because there was only 2 drivers in SSP I went with a more temporary approach for making the minimum weight. I added 190# to the seat and an extra 30-40#'s of fuel.

A special thanks to Fred at Blackwatch and their spec OS Giken for helping secure the class win in San Diego despite the extra weight and an SSP car.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:21 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Awesome Driving Ryno! The BWR OSG does put the power down with no ill effects on corner entry....
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:26 AM   #52 (permalink)
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OK, I did the math from the 2013 rule book. Somebody tell me if I messed up.

The minimum SSM weight for an Elise/Exige with tires no wider than 275mm is:

Atmospheric, 1803.875 pounds.

Supercharged, 2118.875 pounds.

A supercharger makes you carry 315 pounds over the NA variety.

A stock NA Elise/Exige is overweight.

A stock supercharged Elise/Exige is underweight and requires some ballast.

"Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to
weigh more than 2900 lbs." Looks like this could be the playground for AWD cars.
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Old 04-09-2013, 12:08 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Your math is correct. Also, HOLY CRAP! Those dumbbells in the passenger seat are hilarious and scary. Good job on the driving.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:46 PM   #54 (permalink)
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hehe I like that dumbell setup, though security of the dumbells does worry me a bit.

If/when I do go boosted I'll be looking to add weight in a temporary fashion so I don't have run the weight on the street, though I was looking for a way to keep the weight forward more so that if I've gone to 275 all around, the weight distribution would be closer to 50-50.

Nice job taking a tour, though none of the RX's seem to have shown up so that tour isn't exactly a test for nationals... But hey, free tires are... free tires
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #55 (permalink)
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OK, I did the math from the 2013 rule book. Somebody tell me if I messed up.

The minimum SSM weight for an Elise/Exige with tires no wider than 275mm is:

Atmospheric, 1803.875 pounds.

Supercharged, 2118.875 pounds.

A supercharger makes you carry 315 pounds over the NA variety.

A stock NA Elise/Exige is overweight.

A stock supercharged Elise/Exige is underweight and requires some ballast.

"Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to
weigh more than 2900 lbs." Looks like this could be the playground for AWD cars.
Yup, that's right, and the stock exige is also way underpowered for the class too. It is however NOT a playground for AWD at this point. At the national level SSM is totally dominated by 1993 RX-7's making ~500hp, The first crack in that iron lock on the class seems to be one of the leaders defecting to XP last year...

Said defector, a former SSM champion, proceeded to win XP, preventing Fred Zust and his Franken-Lotus from getting a 5th national championship in a row, but the diff was only .5 sec, so there's hope that Fred will take it back next year. I don't know what was done to the defecting RX-7 that put it in XP though...
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #56 (permalink)
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As an ex member of the SMAC, I can tell you some of the things that were discussed on the old weight numbers and ballasting. First, I can say that it was a fight to get the lotus in at all, and second, the SEB raised the weights over the suggested levels. Other than that, it was suggested that a nice multipurpose (street/track/auto-x) forced indcution elise should probably add weight for reliability purposes. Larger radiator, larger oil cooler. Followed closely by a larger intercooler. Possibly stronger axles and trasnmissions as well. Other than that, prime locations to add weight were the supsension subframe connectors and the suspension cross braces. (large pieces of steel connected to major frame bolts low in the frame and allowing some ability to trim balance).

It was identified even before the discussion was forwarded to the SEB that people would us the seat brackets for this purpose. The 50lb per segment came out of the that discussion. The intent was to limit the amount of weight the mounting hardware had to deal with.

Failing that you can get into other allowances. Wings, surge tanks, drysumps/accumulaters etc..

O
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:13 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I have been hoping someone would build basically my XP car to SSM rules on 275s and go kill it. I suspect that adding yet another 200lbs and going to 335s may be required.

Ryno's ballast looks scary but what he told me and the tech inspectors is "If you can move it, I'll pull it out!" It is totally interlocked and not going anywhere.

Nationals was "fun" last year with Andy and I both breaking and trying to get back to form. My wife had fast time out of all XP on day 2, so it should make for some interesting racing this year. Andy and I faced off at the El Toro pro last weekend only for his car to break again on Run 3.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:35 AM   #58 (permalink)
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As an ex member of the SMAC, I can tell you some of the things that were discussed on the old weight numbers and ballasting. First, I can say that it was a fight to get the lotus in at all, and second, the SEB raised the weights over the suggested levels. Other than that, it was suggested that a nice multipurpose (street/track/auto-x) forced indcution elise should probably add weight for reliability purposes. Larger radiator, larger oil cooler. Followed closely by a larger intercooler. Possibly stronger axles and trasnmissions as well. Other than that, prime locations to add weight were the supsension subframe connectors and the suspension cross braces. (large pieces of steel connected to major frame bolts low in the frame and allowing some ability to trim balance).

It was identified even before the discussion was forwarded to the SEB that people would us the seat brackets for this purpose. The 50lb per segment came out of the that discussion. The intent was to limit the amount of weight the mounting hardware had to deal with.

Failing that you can get into other allowances. Wings, surge tanks, drysumps/accumulaters etc..

O
I'm sorry if you took my post as a complaint. That wasn't my intent. It is a fact however that the class is presently heavily dominated by a single build. I actually think that Elise/Exige builds might be able to crack that lock on the class but nobody's really tried a serious full out SSM build for a lotus as far as I know.

Very intersting history you give in any case. I agree that there are some things that should be added that will add some weight. When I think about the thing I would do if I had the money to really do a serious build, a TVS supercharger + intercooler adds some, plus if one pushes things up to the power level likely required, an e153 tranny might be a good idea, which adds weight too (any1 know how much?), and 10" wheels all around would add weight, and as you say, a few lbs for aero. Also, I suspect the hubs may need to be upgraded too, my mechanic is convinced that that is a weak point in the system. If one starts from stock and goes directly to SSM (don't pass go, don't collect $200), perhaps the ballast isn't too bad, but lots of the perf parts are weight reducers too, (wheels, ultra-discs, clutches etc).

However, for someone who progressively builds up their car (like me) rather than doing an ground up build from the start, one winds up shaving weight until the boost goes in, so the ballast to be applied at that point can be substantial. This is arguably just a flaw in my build strategy, so again I'm not complaining but my car is probably around 1875 or so right now with 1/3 tank of fuel, so even if I do eventually do a tranny/supercharger/wheels and a full tank of gas I expect to need at least 3 segments.

However, I can now put the weight low and in the front....

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't noticed the part of the rules that allow replacement of the radiator with anything other than oem? Have to admit I haven't combed the rules for that one yet though.

The only thing I ever really thought was unfair was the previous rule about ballast in the trunk or spare wheel well, neither of which is and option in the elise/exige.

I totally agree with the limitation of 50 lbs per segment although the way the rules were written previously that would have had no effect on "heavy seat brackets" because the were ostensibly "not ballast" since they were not in the trunk or spare wheel well, and just "heavy parts". I always felt that that sort of creative interpretation was very very questionable. After all, how is non-functional weight added to a part not ballast anyway? Discussions I read talked of wrapping the seat brackets in Lead... in other words people would be spending time working poisonous heavy metals into to things, just to pretend it wasn't ballast, and the chances of it being applied in a way that is hard to inspect and perhaps not properly secured sound high. Hardly a desireable side effect...

The recent change to allow ballast "within the bodywork" is a very very good thing IMHO because it prevents people from doing outlandish things to put weight in funny places if they can't or don't want to put it in the trunk. Now, just find a location with space and strength and bolt it down. Plain and simple. This (IMHO) was the key change that makes it thinkable to really do a full SSM build. (If someone wants to give me a spare $20k or so I'll give it a shot... ).

Out of curiosity what were the recommended weight levels?
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:22 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Another reason I've continued to shave weight, is that part of me wonders if a 7lbs/hp (~270hp) N/A build would be possible, and if that would be competitive... Probably eliminates a bunch of cost in the beefing up of the tranny. But the engine work to get to those numbers might cost a pretty penny, and is harder to estimate since it's probably more than just a 2.0 stroker to get there, probably pistons/cams/head/header plus engine mgmt and custom tuning... But then again my 20k number on the previous post is probably on the low side too...

I know that the SSM cars out there are more like 5-6lbs/hp, but they all weigh a lot more too, so the lightness in the corners might(??) make up the difference... or not...
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:21 AM   #60 (permalink)
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For fun I did up a what if I won the lottery spread sheet comparing what I think would be done for NA vs Super charged ... comments welcome. If I actually did win the lottery in a significant way I would do the N/A just for fun, but in any other event it looks like Supercharging gets me there cheaper, though almost entirely due to the fact I am not an engine mechanic, and won't go any further than bolting/unbolting things.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&output=html
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