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Tesla Model S: made and powered by *coal*?

15K views 35 replies 15 participants last post by  MrBlah 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Not all fossil fuels have the same carbon footprint. You can't dismiss it by hand-waving "most electricity is generated from fossil fuels". California is mostly natural gas and hydro. NG is much lower in carbon emissions than coal, and hydro has none. And almost no grid power anywhere in the world comes from oil, despite the author's claim. Conclusion: the writer doesn't know that details matter.

The $7500 to $10000 government incentive money is enough to go buy a solar panel system that will generate enough electricity to an electric the car for the lifetime of the system. In other words, the fuel is free for the indefinite future. I've done it, and the figures do work out (unlike the Forbes' author's generalizations). In fact, 30 minutes ago I sold some surplus solar electronics to another EV owner who will basically be driving for free as well.
 
#3 ·
The main point of writing this "controversial" article is for the writer to get his name noticed.

Replace the Model S with Prius and he's got the same boring argument as before with the Prius' batteries. He's just using the hot Tesla Model S as leverage to gain attention.

Nothing to see here.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Kermit, I think you're looking at the wrong details. The article discusses many important issues, such as the significant energy used to construct the Tesla materials and battery.

pray4mojo, the argument isn't that the Tesla is bad, it's that coal and fossil fuels are just as necessary to create the Tesla to as any other car, and the people who celebrate the Tesla and at the same time bash fossil fuels are wrong-headed. Both should be celebrated.

I was going to respond more, but I see that the Forbes article has now linked to a pretty thorough follow-up to the article and to the response on a Tesla forum: http://industrialprogress.com/2013/08/22/the-tesla-debate/
 
#7 ·
Kermit, I think you're looking at the wrong details. The article discusses many important issues, such as the significant energy used to construct the Tesla materials and battery.
California, where Tesla manufactures, does not have significant coal power. Or at least Teslas are stamped, formed, welded, coil wound, painted, and bolted together in California. I don't know where Tesla sources its aluminum, which is energy intensive to make, but a lot of aluminum is smelted by cheap hydroelectric power in the Pacific Northwest. That industry was developed to support a certain Seattle airplane manufacturer.
 
#8 ·
Thank you Kermit, the Forbes article is ludicrous, it no way discusses the chief difference between the inefficiency of internal combustion engines vs electric engines. Yes the primary source for electricity is fossil bassed fuel however electric engines are more efficient, manly due the massive heat (energy loss) inherent in gasoline powered motors. In other words electric engines do far more work with about a third of CO2 omission. Even if the original electricity was generated by a coal powered plant your carbon foot print would still be 1/2 a regular car.
 
#9 ·
I think when it comes down to it, no one really gives a rats ass about "Carbon footprint" but rather their wallets. Teslas does not make any sense right now as far as money savings go. When they can price the cars down to 30 to 40k with the current luxuries or 20 to 30k with the basics, then you are talking.
 
#12 ·
Tesla a coal fired car is a ridiculous statement, obviously it runs off of lithium batteries duh! Seriously the people who can afford the current models can afford solar panels, wind turbines. As far as where your energy comes from it is completely wrong to say that everyones energy is 40% coal... Again what if I have my own power generations from solar? As already stated the reason electric is efficient is mainly because the electric motor and the fact that if you do use your power from the grid those power plants are way more efficient then ICE cars. Also the independence from oil, how many quarts does a tesla take!? Id want to own an electric car just for the lack of maintenance...

The largest problem i see is harvesting the lithium, but isn't oil, coal, natty gas, uranium, platinum, nickel, so on so forth all horrible to obtain!? That guy is just seeking publicity.. His house and computers are most likely 40% coal fired, if he is such an ecomentalist he shoild unplug them!
 
#13 ·
the technical question of interest is of course how does the overal thermal efficency of an electric car compair to a gasoline car. Miles driven / energy in is the only metric that matters.

Electric cars have efficeny advantages over gasoline cars because there are efficency economies of scale from generating electricity centrally. IE a pound of fossil fuel generates more kWh at the powerstation than it could in your car.....the difference is significant.
 
#14 ·
I have to laugh whenI hear people complaining about how the government is ripping them off by subsidizing renewables but forget how much we subsidies fossil fuels.

16.3 billion in direct spending
50.3 billion in tax brakes

Source congresional joint committee on taxation, Offices of Management and budget, IRS

Then the national academies estimates 120 billion we pay in health care costs due to fossil fuels

Then there is the financial and moral cost for our involvement in the Middle East.
 
#15 ·
Electric Car Myth

Myth about Electric cars:

1. Electricity is clean energy.
2. Electricity is more efficient.

If I can prove above that the obvious conclusion is that Electric cars are another liberal myth that hits our collective pocketbook and distracts us from real issues at hand.

1. Electricity is clean

a. It would be if it was produced from Hydro, solar, wind or nuclear (?)... and I am stretching the truth as much as I can here. Hydro dams damage the environment in uncountable ways. Large scale solar or wind is yet to be proven and its environmental impact is unceratain. Nuclear has well known problems and probably should not be on this list. (When I was a kid I thought few nations could have nuclear, since there are few geologically and environmentally stable places on this planet where mother nature would not be able to release the radiation. Little did I know that Japanese built a bunch of nukes right on the most active fault! :) Kids do not know anything anyway.)

b. As was pointed out here most of the energy is generated by fossil fuel. Gas is fossil fuel, too, in case you have nto checked. It produces a little more steram that COx, but that is all.

c. Li batteries are not an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Li is not all that safe for humans. The elecrelite and the substrate is a nasty fluoro-carbon.

d. Fossil fuel will run out. Not in our lifetime or our grand-kids lifetime. There is a difference in what is called proven reserves and actual reserves.

e. What about the other 95% of the world which continues to burn fossil fuel at ever increasing rates with no regulation....

2. The electric car seems to be a more efficient way to deliver motive power.

a. This appears to be true. Fossil plant efficiency is 55%, transmission is 95% and electric motor is 90% to 99%. Compared to 20% efficiency for gasoline this looks correct. Ooops! One step missing. What happens when you charge those batteries. Do they get hot? The charging process is veeeeery inefficient, it wastes 50% of the energy. It is better to run a Diesel car it si 45% efficient.

b. Electric car wastes less energy when idling. This is correct. Besides converting 20% of the fuel's energy to power, gasoline car wastes a lot of gas just sitting at trtaffic lights. This is why hybrids make sense, they solve this energy delivery problem. There is a simpler solution Diesel, again. Diesel motor consumes very little gas at idle, just enough to turn the accessories.

Therefore, a better answer is a Diesel car. 50% energy conversion efficeincy at all speeds (no throttle). Mr. Diesel was a genious. The technology exists. Thedistribution netwoirk is widely avaialble.

Electric cars just put a lot of our $$ into politician's cronies pockets. in other countries this would be called corruption or irresponsible management of public funds, at best. Here we think it is something we must do.

Anton
 
#17 ·
Myth about Electric cars:

1. Electricity is clean energy.
2. Electricity is more efficient.

If I can prove above that the obvious conclusion is that Electric cars are another liberal myth that hits our collective pocketbook and distracts us from real issues at hand.

1. Electricity is clean

a. It would be if it was produced from Hydro, solar, wind or nuclear (?)... and I am stretching the truth as much as I can here. Hydro dams damage the environment in uncountable ways. Large scale solar or wind is yet to be proven and its environmental impact is unceratain. Nuclear has well known problems and probably should not be on this list. (When I was a kid I thought few nations could have nuclear, since there are few geologically and environmentally stable places on this planet where mother nature would not be able to release the radiation. Little did I know that Japanese built a bunch of nukes right on the most active fault! :) Kids do not know anything anyway.)

b. As was pointed out here most of the energy is generated by fossil fuel. Gas is fossil fuel, too, in case you have nto checked. It produces a little more steram that COx, but that is all.

c. Li batteries are not an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Li is not all that safe for humans. The elecrelite and the substrate is a nasty fluoro-carbon.

d. Fossil fuel will run out. Not in our lifetime or our grand-kids lifetime. There is a difference in what is called proven reserves and actual reserves.

e. What about the other 95% of the world which continues to burn fossil fuel at ever increasing rates with no regulation....

2. The electric car seems to be a more efficient way to deliver motive power.

a. This appears to be true. Fossil plant efficiency is 55%, transmission is 95% and electric motor is 90% to 99%. Compared to 20% efficiency for gasoline this looks correct. Ooops! One step missing. What happens when you charge those batteries. Do they get hot? The charging process is veeeeery inefficient, it wastes 50% of the energy. It is better to run a Diesel car it si 45% efficient.

b. Electric car wastes less energy when idling. This is correct. Besides converting 20% of the fuel's energy to power, gasoline car wastes a lot of gas just sitting at trtaffic lights. This is why hybrids make sense, they solve this energy delivery problem. There is a simpler solution Diesel, again. Diesel motor consumes very little gas at idle, just enough to turn the accessories.

Therefore, a better answer is a Diesel car. 50% energy conversion efficeincy at all speeds (no throttle). Mr. Diesel was a genious. The technology exists. Thedistribution netwoirk is widely avaialble.

Electric cars just put a lot of our $$ into politician's cronies pockets. in other countries this would be called corruption or irresponsible management of public funds, at best. Here we think it is something we must do.

Anton
Most of this is just flat out wrong. I work in the oil industry and I am no proponent of electric cars really......but this is absurd

They just made up a number for the charging efficency of batteries....it is 80 to 95 % in practice.
 
#18 ·
I guess the first clues should have been "liberal Myth" and veeeery with extra e's that the points would be based on science not bias
 
#22 ·
Ive seen idocracy many times. Best I can do? I wasnt trying to be insulting, other than to the author of those points. I assume they were quoted from somewhere and not original material.

I was just pointing out the "facts" you posted are not correct.
 
#25 ·
re: I am the author of that post

I wrote the post.... and I do find the comments somewhat insulting. I do not think this is called for...

You do adhere to the old American ideal of free speech? How about 'free spelling'? As Americans You must, since the English is all mis-spelled. :)

The material is original and is based on my experience with electric car industry. I also have been involved with the oil industry. I lived in Woodlands for a few years :)... Hence, what you get is my (biased) interpretation of raw data that I was privy to... and much more than you get to read in the papers. :)

Anton

P.S> If you live in the Woodlands. I remember seein an Elige in the BHI parking lot....
 
#26 ·
Well appologies then. I do believe in creative spelling. I am bad at language, spelling, gramer, etc. However, I understand thermal efficencies and general enginnering very well. Some of the things you posted are demonstrably incorrect I am afraid.

I dont work for BHI but I do work for a direct competitor. I manage an engineering group responsible for research and development of battery powered electromechanical devices so am privy to some data as well.
 
#28 ·
The problem with electric cars nearly entirely is batteries have terrible energy density and are very expensive per unit of stored energy.

Electric motors are awsome, batteries are pretty thermodynamically efficent, they are just too heavy and too expensive.

He who invents a better battery (or fuel cell) will quite literally change the world. They are the limiting factor in alot of technologies
 
#30 ·
but "electric cars does not = plug in only - that is a "public misconception"

fuel cell will be the magic sauce, that will doom the IC engine - no smart reason for it after that... on board generation is the answer, not on board electrical storage (batteries).
 
#31 ·
I hope all of you realize that Tesla is just one symbol (of many) of the two true issues that should be discussed.

1...whether the government has the right to take money it receives from it's citizens and give it to private entities in exchange for nothing.

2...whether man induced global warming is a fact or merely a political construct.

Steve
 
#32 ·
? really.... chenny stole billions of tax dollars into a private corp, and at the expense of millions of peoples lives and health. Tesla is a harmless fraction of a penny on a dollar... in context as you framed - its a non issue.

transportation efficiency and conservatism is first an economic problem, second a resources issues and third an environmental one. and "global warming" is only a portion of the environmental issues. its pretty far down the list of issues here.

lastly - people will make their money off other peoples ignorance, that will never change, and is why the two issue are 'front lines' its marketing talk.

so really - nothing here to discuss other than how these "issues" are being marketed to you....
 
#35 ·
I honestly think the best mode of transport would be some sort of batteryless electric drive vehicle (maybe a small battery say 40 miles), which basically would either have an advanced cable system that would run along the power grid or perhaps be wirelessly charged (think Nikola Tesla). Since I'm still waking up this basically sums it up:
The All-Electric Car You Never Plug In - IEEE Spectrum

Now imagine your 1000 lb car screaming wirelessly down the road. Carbon fiber tub, light wheels and the such. There is the future IMO
 
#36 ·
I'm going to resurrect this thread because reasons.

A close friend of mine is a mine engineer. Her Master's Thesis was on long wall coal mining. She has always wanted a Tesla so she can have a car powered by coal. :D

On another note, a different friend of mine just bought a Model S. His apartment building has an electric car charging station in the garage that is powered exclusively by solar panels on the roof of the building.
 
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