Could Save Yr AS$? Moss Emergency Line - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 11:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 20
OK, Photoshop sucks for drawing, but how's this:

dsf3g is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
ABS:

I don't know how it works in this situation on our cars, but it prevents using the "both feet in" (brake & clutch) technique in a spin on most cars.

Common wisdom has said that if you can lockup the wheels during a spin, you will at least spin straight ahead, vs making large arcs into solid items.

How does it work on our cars?

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
post #23 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsf3g View Post
OK, Photoshop sucks for drawing, but how's this:

thank you v much.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
 
post #24 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus_tunnen View Post
that definitely works, i use it on GranTurismo4 all the time. If i'm coming in too fast and/or miss the apex, straight-line braking is more efficient than trail-braking(turning whilst braking).

Good post
thanks, but what kind of car is a GT4, pray tell?

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
post #25 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Registered User
 
TimMullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 12,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by pianomaniac View Post
Sorry, but I don't get it. If red is the braking zone, why would you want to be braking there? You're already through the turn.
You have the car's direction backward.

The "car" is at the beginning of the braking/turn, going from left to right in the diagram...




Tim Mullen --- There is no such thing as Touring suspension or Touring wheels.

I love being married. It's so great to find that one person that you want to annoy for the rest of your life. - Rita Rudner


Chantilly, VA http://members.cox.net/elans4/
05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
94 Miata R Package - Black
72 Lotus Elan Sprint - Colorado Orange/Cirrus White
TimMullen is offline  
post #26 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 05:47 PM
Registered User
 
BrendanDolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 459
Great write up. When I teach my friends how to drive in a bit more spirited manner, I teach them to late apex for this very reason. If your natural line is the safest, then you can have fun on a twisty road, and have a large margin of error. Late apexing saves you generally when driving around blind corners, decreasing radius corners, and keeps your mid corner speed a lot lower, since you never really fully commit to a corner.

Whether on the track, on the street, or driving up in the canyons, it's better to be on the brakes and depart the road in a controlled manner than try to save it. This method works wonders, as if you don't manage to slow the car down by using all of the traction for braking, at least you are going to depart the road under control.

Per spinning, locking up the brakes puts your direction of travel constant from where you locked the brakes. I did that in an old VW, and hitting the brakes at the right time put my velocity vector straight down the road, so I avoided any body work. This trick works reasonably well in a car equipped with ABS.
BrendanDolan is offline  
post #27 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
Brendan -

Yup, there is a lot of good info in this thread, lots of people contributing, you too.

I've seen T-shirts that say: "Friends don't let friends early apex"

My one experience w/ a spin in an ABS-equipped car, the ABS wouldn't let the wheels lock up and the car gave me a lovely tour of the entire roadway, all 3 lanes, and the embankment.

If the the theory is that the brakes must be locked for this technique to work and ABS (in my one experience) didn't allow that, I can't see "both feet in" working.

Any ideas......anyone?

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
post #28 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-09-2008, 07:27 PM
Registered User
 
BrendanDolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by glb View Post
Brendan -

Yup, there is a lot of good info in this thread, lots of people contributing, you too.

I've seen T-shirts that say: "Friends don't let friends early apex"

My one experience w/ a spin in an ABS-equipped car, the ABS wouldn't let the wheels lock up and the car gave me a lovely tour of the entire roadway, all 3 lanes, and the embankment.

If the the theory is that the brakes must be locked for this technique to work and ABS (in my one experience) didn't allow that, I can't see "both feet in" working.

Any ideas......anyone?
I spun an E34 525i with ABS, and I did stay in one lane. Food for thought there though is that 1. I wasn't going more than 50mph 2. That is was raining 3. That's still a fairly basic ABS system when compared with modern cars, being IIRC two channel not four channel. Thinking further, I can see a four channel ABS having issues with a spin, since it is going to try to keep the car going straight, but in that situation things are probably happening too fast and too violently for it to deal with.

At a driving clinic, I saw a friend of mine spin an E60 530 with the DSC on. Why? Over cooked it into a corner with a sharp steering input (why???), and the tail kicked out. While the tail was out and the DSC was trying to save it, he countersteered, which when you combine the steering input, and DSC braking input, the car violently swung the other direction. He still hasn't heard the end of it, nor has he driven my E39 540.

Next time I'm in an open enough spot I might spin my E39 to see what the brakes do...
BrendanDolan is offline  
post #29 of 52 (permalink) Old 04-10-2008, 07:18 AM
Registered User
 
pianomaniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
You have the car's direction backward.

The "car" is at the beginning of the braking/turn, going from left to right in the diagram...
Thanks, Tim. Now it makes sense.

Owner of '05 Elise S/T- touring- LSS-Stage 2
'07 Audi RS4 4.2L V-8 420 HP - 6 Sp..(sold)
'07 Toyota Prius (sold)
'10 Toyota Tundra
'08 Ducati Multistrada
pianomaniac is offline  
post #30 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-20-2012, 07:54 AM
Registered User
 
Hello Kitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,837
The diagram is bogus. In the diagram, the car is in trouble, so it makes a hard left, and then brakes. According to the diagram, there is no need to brake, because the car already made the turn. So why not accelerate in the red zone.? If the car is really in trouble, it cant make that left in the first place.
Hello Kitty is offline  
post #31 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-20-2012, 08:03 AM
Registered User
 
addertooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Arizona
Posts: 2,631
The earlier comment about letting the suspension settle is spot on, you want to get off the brakes in time for the suspension to settle before the agressive turn. Fortunately on the Lotus the settling period is very brief.

Storm titanium 2005 Elise with carbon fiber spoiler, BWR sway bar, BOE toe links, gPan2, LidBone, sector 111 wheel studs, Grey RAC Monolite wheels with toyo R1R, Team Dynamics 1.4 with Hoosier A6/R6s, Katana2 Supercharger, ECU with 265 flash. PPE headers w/decat, CEL angle eliminator, Silent touch catback, Rear Panel Eliminator, HKS intake, V2 fuel tank, Walbro255 fuel pump. HID lights.
addertooth is offline  
post #32 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-20-2012, 08:10 AM
Registered User
 
apk919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Not Here
Posts: 9,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hello Kitty View Post
The diagram is bogus. In the diagram, the car is in trouble, so it makes a hard left, and then brakes. According to the diagram, there is no need to brake, because the car already made the turn. So why not accelerate in the red zone.? If the car is really in trouble, it cant make that left in the first place.
Tim is amazing. He actually anticipated your post years ago and answered it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
You have the car's direction backward.

The "car" is at the beginning of the braking/turn, going from left to right in the diagram...
apk919 is offline  
post #33 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-20-2012, 08:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
Tim is amazing. He actually anticipated your post years ago and answered it here:
LOL.

Yes kitty you are looking at the diagram backward... and that was answered a few years ago.

440bhp E85 2006 Solar Yellow Elise.
The way it should have been delivered from the factory with Honda Power!
WhatsADSM is offline  
post #34 of 52 (permalink) Old 02-20-2012, 09:01 AM
He's on fire!
 
jds62f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
Tim is amazing. He actually anticipated your post years ago and answered it here:

"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
jds62f is offline  
post #35 of 52 (permalink) Old 07-12-2012, 03:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 110
It has always baffled me how many people will respond to a relatively short thread without reading anything but the very first post.
trentor is offline  
post #36 of 52 (permalink) Old 07-12-2012, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
Reading is becoming a lost art and this doesn't bode well for society.

Perhaps I should do everything in cartoon form.

Thanks.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
post #37 of 52 (permalink) Old 07-12-2012, 11:58 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: McKinney, TX
Posts: 110
Thanks for posting this, by the way. This has saved my butt a few times, and a refresher to keep it engrained in my head is always a good thing. Also, "Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.

My reminder to not get in a situation where I need to use the Moss line is a patch I found a few years ago. I've wedged it right by my tachometer, in plain sight when I'm driving.
trentor is offline  
post #38 of 52 (permalink) Old 07-13-2012, 05:54 AM
Registered User
 
philethier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentor View Post
"Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.
SIFO is the rule everywhere. Do I have to tell the Jackie Stewart stories agian?

Moss himself said, "It is better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than it is to go into a corner fast and come out dead."
philethier is offline  
post #39 of 52 (permalink) Old 07-13-2012, 06:21 AM Thread Starter
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 11,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentor View Post
Thanks for posting this, by the way. This has saved my butt a few times, and a refresher to keep it engrained in my head is always a good thing. Also, "Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.

My reminder to not get in a situation where I need to use the Moss line is a patch I found a few years ago. I've wedged it right by my tachometer, in plain sight when I'm driving.
That is very funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philethier View Post
SIFO is the rule everywhere. Do I have to tell the Jackie Stewart stories agian?

Moss himself said, "It is better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than it is to go into a corner fast and come out dead."
Could you pls point me to the J Stewart stories?


Moss once used a cow in a field as a braking point.

Alas, he learned the hard way that cows move about....

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS. Past '72 Elan Sprint (I restored), Lotus 7 w/X-flow, TT Supra, Bugeye Sprite, BMW 2002 & 2002tii, '65 GTO.

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...cy-line-36631/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f10...-brakes-241138
glb is offline  
post #40 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-01-2013, 03:10 PM
Carbon Fiber
 
FistHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,637
Mp


Sent from AutoGuide.com App

If brute force is not working you're not using enough.
FistHammer is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Motorsports > Track and Technique

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome