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post #41 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-10-2007, 08:09 PM
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I am a little unclear about this. Is this as much of a problem if I have the track pack? Does it still have the same torque spec of 44 ft/lb?
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post #42 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
Again, just to be clear - for the rear, it's:
When/where was this number updated to 60Nm? There are still posts that say 50Nm.

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post #43 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 03:48 AM
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When I put the car on ramps to change the oil, I check the toe link. I also hand check it everytime I change wheels. Yes, I know that's not tight enough but it will be obvious if it's loose and then I can address it. Also, every time it goes on the rack I get under there and check it. What the heck.

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post #44 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattG
While I don't dispute that logic, I do wonder...how does one check the torque of the inner a-arm bolts without removing the wheel? Or should we just use a jack to raise the hub / compress the spring in this case to close to ride height?
You have figured out the Catch-22...

You can use a jack to raise the hub/compress the spring - many people do that. Or, an simpler way is to lower the car/wheels onto RhinoRamps so the weight is on the wheels. The slide under the car and use the torque wrench.

This is one reason that when I get a garage lift, I'm getting a four post drive on lift. Now I just need a bigger/taller garage so I can fit one...

You can always check the torque on the bolts with the car in the air - if they are tight, you won't be changing the position of the bushings. But if they are loose, then you need to put the car to ride height prior to tightening.

A little background about suspension bushings.

The suspension does not actually rotate about the bolts that hold the A-arm to the chassis. The rotational movement of the A-arm is accomplished by the twisting of rubber in the bushing.

The bushings are made with two sleeves (cylinders) of metal, with rubber bonded (the Black and Gray in the diagram below) between the two. The outer sleeve (Orange) is pressed (it's a very tight fit) into the end of the A-arm (Blue). The "pivot" bolt (Green) (in this case the end of the Toe-Link ball joint) passes through a hole in the chassis (Yellow), through the inner sleeve of the bushing (Red), and through the other side of the chassis bracket (Yellow). When you tighten the bolt (Green), the sides of the chassis (Yellow) clamp down on the inner sleeve (Red). This clamps the inner sleeve of the bushing to the chassis and prevents any rotation of the inner sleeve. Note that the inner sleeve sticks out slightly from the rest of the bushing - this makes sure that the only part of the bushing to contact the chassis is the inner sleeve, preventing metal to metal rubbing of the suspension parts and chassis (only the Red and Yellow come in contact and they are clamped together so they can't move relative to one another).

Since the outer sleeve (Orange) is a press fit into the A-arm (Blue), it is not free to rotate relative to the A-arm. The only movement is the twisting of the rubber (Black and Gray) between the inner and outer sleeves of the bushing.

If you tighten the bushing with the suspension "drooped", things will be clamped in that position. When the car is settled on the suspension, the rubber bushing will be in it's twisted state. This causes a couple of problems. One, the rubber tries to untwist, "lifting" the car - it will try to act as a bit of a spring. Two, and more importantly, the twisted rubber is under strain, and will degrade fairly rapidly (consider a rubber band that has been stretched around something for a few months - it will no longer be flexible and will tend to easily break if you twist it or pull on it). Three, since the rubber bushing is already twisted a considerable amount, it will be strongly resisting being twisted more - this will reduce the ability of the suspension to move upward when you hit bumps, etc. It will act as a strong spring (if you want stiffer springs - add the metal kind, it's more predictable). Four, the car will feel "floaty" as you drive it.

Bottom line is, tighten (clamp) the bushings with the suspension in the ride position to avoid problems. This is also why you shouldn't store a car over the winter months "up on jacks". Leaving the suspension drooped for long periods of time will have the same effects, and cause the bushings to degrade more rapidly.

Oh yea, the reason the rubber in the bushing "Black and Gray" in the diagram is that Lotus has used a bushing that has a plastic ring (Gray) in the middle of the rubber (Black) bushing - this limits the twisting of the rubber, making the bushing "stiffer" without the harshness of using a hard plastic material (such as polyurethane) as is often used to make stiffer bushings.



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Last edited by TimMullen; 10-19-2007 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Fix spelling errors...
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post #45 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper
When/where was this number updated to 60Nm? There are still posts that say 50Nm.
The Service Manual indicates the 50 Nm (37 ft-lb), but it was changed by Lotus quite some time ago to the 60 Nm (44 ft-lb). There are a couple of threads where it was discussed, but good luck finding them. The searches that I've tried either find nothing, or find way too many threads to check through. I found it the other day with a magic combination of words to search on, but I can't seem to find it again. I should have saved the link to the previous post...




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post #46 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
I found it the other day with a magic combination of words to search on, but I can't seem to find it again. I should have saved the link to the previous post...
Might as well be straight from Hethel:

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=40

(The magic combo: Google: site:www.elisetalk.com toe link 60nm)

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post #47 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper
Might as well be straight from Hethel:

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=40

(The magic combo: Google: site:www.elisetalk.com toe link 60nm)
Thank you. I didn't find that one when I looked - only others that referenced the information (and remembered it in the back of my mind from the time - I have a mind like a steel trap; very rusty).

You are quite correct - information from Don should be considered correct and reliable.

You might want to add that link to the uber post under the toe-link topic...




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post #48 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmc
I am a little unclear about this. Is this as much of a problem if I have the track pack? Does it still have the same torque spec of 44 ft/lb?
Can somebody please let me know about the track pack? I've tried searching and I've seen this question asked at least 3 other times with no response.
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post #49 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westmc
Can somebody please let me know about the track pack? I've tried searching and I've seen this question asked at least 3 other times with no response.
I would expect the torque to be similar (assuming similar pitch on the threads of the bolt compared to the toe-link ball joint stud). The torque is actually a measure of the clamping force of the bolt - the bolt that clamps the chassis to the bushing. I see no reason that that clamping force would be any different depending on what bolt was holding it in place.

Of course, that is just what I would expect, not a known fact...




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post #50 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
I would expect the torque to be similar (assuming similar pitch on the threads of the bolt compared to the toe-link ball joint stud). The torque is actually a measure of the clamping force of the bolt - the bolt that clamps the chassis to the bushing. I see no reason that that clamping force would be any different depending on what bolt was holding it in place.

Of course, that is just what I would expect, not a known fact...
Do you know if this toe link problem happens with the track pack?
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post #51 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 01:32 PM
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I have not HEARD of any track-pack equipped vehicles actually braking the bolt. I do know that even on the track-pack the joints have crappy plastic linings that develop slop. The slop then allows slight toe changes while driving, most especially under hard braking.

I have the track pack, and I've just received my RTD Brace from Sector111. Plan to install it in a couple of weeks.

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post #52 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-11-2007, 02:48 PM
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The original (or at least one of the original) big threads about this issue is here:

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23885

Lots if not all the questions being asked now have been answered and debated to death there already.

Marc
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post #53 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-15-2007, 07:31 PM
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I appreciate this thread. I haven't yet installed my Sector111 RTDBrace (still looking for a decent alignment guy in Knoxville area), and they were only @ 21 ft/lbs. I tightened them up to the 44 ft/lbs.
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post #54 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-15-2007, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiexigeowner
Sec111 has locking washers for the toe links.....
does the same trick as a locking tab, if not better,simple mod.....
a took a load of these courtesy of shinoo and neil along to the stargazing
meet......if your close to CA shay2 may have a few left over...
I have some of the washers. If you guys want them I can hand them to ya'll at the meets. I'll bring them with me. Let me know.

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post #55 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-14-2007, 11:13 AM
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+1
Went on a club drive yesterday. Raining today so I figured I would play with the car. I brought both of the toe links up to 60NM. Both were loose (below Lotus spec of 50NM when my car was built). I managed to do it by only taking off the wheel and turning the nut "one-click-at-a-time" with my torque wrench and a deep socket.

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post #56 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
I have some of the washers. If you guys want them I can hand them to ya'll at the meets. I'll bring them with me. Let me know.
Could you post a pic of the type washer that is being used? Also would you mind dropping a couple in the mail?

Thanks
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post #57 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jallingt View Post
+1
Went on a club drive yesterday. Raining today so I figured I would play with the car. I brought both of the toe links up to 60NM. Both were loose (below Lotus spec of 50NM when my car was built). I managed to do it by only taking off the wheel and turning the nut "one-click-at-a-time" with my torque wrench and a deep socket.
+1

I bought a short torque wrench for this task. It can be done with just removing the wheel. I will post pictures the next time I do it.
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post #58 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 08:35 AM
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FYI, the lotus service manual that i had downloaded from lotus around august of 2007 shows the updated 60 Nm torque specification for this bolt.

mine were below that when i went to torque them for the first time (had to turn the bolt about 180 degrees more to reach 60 Nm). kinda scary considering i have just over 1400 miles on my car so far. will have to check often to see if they work themselves loose again.

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post #59 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 11:03 AM
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Just checked the toe link. Drivers side was about 1/2 turn loose, pass. side about 1/4 turn loose. Very easy to do after putting the car up on the ramps and removing the center tray. Our car has no track time, with about 9950 miles. Do not know if it was checked at 1000 miles. Thanks to those who provided all the pics. I am now up to the 60Nm. Adam.

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post #60 of 173 (permalink) Old 10-22-2007, 06:08 AM
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Nord-Lock washer

What is the part number of the washer?

TIA

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