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post #101 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:26 PM
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Thanks Andy! I am pretty sure we were doing it in reverse. Seems the way it is stated here is more difficult to fit the larger torque wrench and socket in place whereas the front you have all the room. Unless I am missing something.


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Yes... here it is:

You can of course, reverse the position of the normal wrench and torque wrench... but it's much easier this way.
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post #102 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:28 PM
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Thanks Andy! I am pretty sure we were doing it in reverse. Seems the way it is stated here is more difficult to fit the larger torque wrench and socket in place whereas the front you have all the room. Unless I am missing something.
Well, you have to temporarily bend the heat shield up to get to the bolt head... but you're using a lift, and I'm doing it while the car is on balance scales... so I use a crawler to roll in from the rear of the car...
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post #103 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:32 PM
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Got it!



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Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
Well, you have to temporarily bend the heat shield up to get to the bolt head... but you're using a lift, and I'm doing it while the car is on balance scales... so I use a crawler to roll in from the rear of the car...
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post #104 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
You can of course, reverse the position of the normal wrench and torque wrench... but it's much easier this way.

EDIT: Oh, yeah... note that my OEM track brace did not have the turnbuckles or the brace to the chassis...
The original toe link brace was bolted to the chassis in the middle and had the adjustable ends to fit things "perfectly". Later versions were simplified and just had the bar that connected one side to the other.


To add to the photo, I colored
the chassis (sub-frame) blue,
the A-arm red (note that the bushing is actually "inside" the chassis),
the toe link brace green,
and the toe link and Heim (spherical) joint orange.



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post #105 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:40 PM
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tightening the nut end will limit the twist on the bolt (in the bushing).

presumably the bushing may grip the bolt under compressions. but mine seemed pretty "relaxed" when i put on my brace - a reasonably precaution / process though i suppose.

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post #106 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 12:50 PM
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Hold the boat... In a situation where bolt torque is critical (like with anything other than body panels.lol), NEVER tighten the bolt head unless you cannot access the nut. In this case, the nut is easy to access and bolt torque is extremely critical. In fact, it's probably not a far stretch to say that every toelink failure out there (short of those in crash) is due to improper (too loose) or at some point grossly over tightening (passed yield) of the plain 'ol ball joint that the factory sends out...

Tim, you get a for that one

Cheers,

Phil

Edit: APK- you get a thwack too


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #107 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbophil View Post

Edit: APK- you get a thwack too
Ouch. Yes, I see your point.
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post #108 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
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So, if it's not loose then do you need to loosen and retighten to make sure it's not ever torqued? Or, just put the torque wrench on it and make sure it clicks?


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Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
Hold the boat... In a situation where bolt torque is critical (like with anything other than body panels.lol), NEVER tighten the bolt head unless you cannot access the nut. In this case, the nut is easy to access and bolt torque is extremely critical. In fact, it's probably not a far stretch to say that every toelink failure out there (short of those in crash) is due to improper (too loose) or at some point grossly over tightening (passed yield) of the plain 'ol ball joint that the factory sends out...

Tim, you get a for that one

Cheers,

Phil

Edit: APK- you get a thwack too
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post #109 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulhastings View Post
So, if it's not loose then do you need to loosen and retighten to make sure it's not ever torqued?
I think so. I've always heard that if the nut/bolt isn't moving while being torqued, the torque value may not be accurate. So, best to loosen, then re-torque.

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post #110 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-30-2009, 05:07 PM
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Nuts and Bolts

I'm kind of a nut when it comes to bolts (pun), so here's the deal...

First, it's FAR, FAR better to over tighten a bolt than it is to under tighten one. FAR.

There are two primary ways to know if you've significantly over tighten a bolt (i.e. reduced the strength of the bolt). There are other ways, but these are good for most practical purposes...
1) The thread spacing expands. This is essentially an indication that a bolt has been torqued to yield. The bolt at this point is functional but should not be reused. How to tell: Upon removing the nut, and you VERY closely inspect the threads of the bolt, if you notice that the spacing of the threads has expanded (any of the threads that were in tension). If you see any irregular thread spacing, you should do the Carrol Smith "float test". Toss the suspect bolt in a near by pond/lake. If it floats, reuse it

2) The bolt breaks. The most stress a bolt will experience is the stress of tightening (short of over loading it and causing a failure). Not only is it in shear stress, but it's twisted as well. This is key because if the bolt survives the tightening process, then you don't have to worry about it breaking soley from being over tightened during use. Again, over tightening is far better than under tightening.

Tightening 101... MOST mechanical tq wrenches are only accurate to about +/-25% of the indicated torque. Given this statistic, you have 3 options, IMO. Annually recalibrate your tq wrench (Send it off), buy a digital tq wrench (expensive, but are typically more accurate and stay more accurate than mechanical), or cross your fingers and slightly over torque every bolt you're supposed to torque to X to X+10% or so (depends on the fastener size and use) to hedge your bet that your tq wrench may be reading much over what is indicated at the "click"... You now know it's better to be too tight than too loose (remember if the bolt doesn't break you're likely OK), so you always hedge up in tq rather than down if you question your equipment...

You should always use a hard washer with a bearing surface under the nut to be torqued at critical joints/unions (like the toe links). I'm not sure how I feel about those locking washer that come with some of the kits... I'd rather use a nyloc nut (yes, those are reusable). Remember is not the nut or the "lock washer" that keeps things tight. It's the bolt stretch...

MOST tq specs are for dry and clean threads unless otherwise specified (like the toe links- dry and clean).

All the above is especially importantly for things like suspension/driveline components.

I'd bet a fair penny that every failed toe link failed due to improper tq. Those that claim they always tq'ed their toe links prior to a track event and still experienced a failure (Which would be few) probably had something wrong with the tightening procedure like a torque wrench that wasn't calibrated, or were using the *old* tq spec opposed to the new one for the links, or perhaps retorqued a toe-link that had been previously been torqued to yield by mistake, or possibly the joint could have been loose at one point in time and damage occurred to the stud at that time. It could be any one or combination of those items...

IMO, I think the after market solutions do more for awareness than anything, which causes people to check them more frequently. That really helps the most (more than that "double shear" thing-uh-muh-jig connecting rod)... IN full disclosure, I do not personally run the stock toe links... but I also don't run the so-called double shear rod that connects the joints either...Not that there's anything particularly wrong with the aftermarket solutions out. They obviously work just fine

Hope that helps,

Phil


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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #111 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
In a situation where bolt torque is critical (like with anything other than body panels.lol), NEVER tighten the bolt head unless you cannot access the nut. In this case, the nut is easy to access and bolt torque is extremely critical.

Tim, you get a for that one
Hey, I just colored the diagram...

Actually, I agree, tighten the nut, not the bolt. However, if you can't get to the nut easily, it won't make that much of a difference. Still, you should attempt to tighten the nut if at all possible.

But I humbly accept the thwack.




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post #112 of 173 (permalink) Old 07-31-2009, 09:07 AM
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But I humbly accept the thwack.
Somebody bookmark / stickie this... holy crap!

MONUMENTAL!!

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d.a..v...i....d

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post #113 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 10:18 PM
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So this was timely...

I was replacing the toe links with ours on a client's car this evening. Little background. The car has never been tracked. Is an 05 that runs normal street tires (i.e. not R comps).

Car has about 15K miles...

Driver's side toe link MAY have had about 10ft/lbs of torque. Passenger side link was tightened as normal. The subsequent wear pattern on the links was clear as day. Almost looks like they came from different cars... but they didn't

Eventually the link with the circle would have failed even with street use. It has galling on the stud that is measurable with a caliper and detectable with a finger nail... On the other hand, the properly torqued one showed no signs of wear as you can see.

Moral of the story is nothing new, but more of the same.... check your toe link torque very FREQUENTLY even if you don't track your car...

Enjoy,

Phil
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2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #114 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 12:04 AM
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Was the link properly torqued after break-in?

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post #115 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 07:25 AM
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After break in??? There's not a break in process for the part, FWIW... I doubt checking the link was part of normal maintenance if that's what you're asking. The stock setup comes loose due to a lack of torque to begin with. Lotus increased the torque spec for the bolt for a reason- to increase the stretch in the bolt making it not only harder to become loose but a stronger union in general... Folks should make sure that they're checking that torque value on a regular basis.

FWIW- I ran my stock toe links for 2 years on the track with r-comp tires, supercharger, downforce, the whole 9 yards, etc... I checked them religiously and torqued them to dry 45ft/lbs (a bit over torqued from Lotus's spec as I recall). When I removed them to replace with a much more robust setup, there were zero signs of galling and no indication that the part was bound to fail (note mine are not the ones pictured)... I'm not recommending that folks do that. Stick with Lotus's specs or replace them if you're worried about it...

Happy driving,

Phil


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #116 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 08:24 AM
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Yes, after the break in period there's a mandatory check of the part where it must be torqued to spec. It is part of routine maintenance and IIRC the only time it's required to check it. Although you should check it frequently, the real question is has it ever come loose after proper maintenance.

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post #117 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 08:50 AM
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Oh I see... You mean the 1,000 mile check as the break in period IMO, the issue with the 05s in particular has more to do with the earlier torque spec. I'm sure this car rec'd a proper 1,000 check. The owner is pretty meticulous. The thing is the bolt doesn't have a break in period and neither does the rear sub frame. This is a metal on metal item that doesn't "settle in" over time like pistons rings do for instance... Only reason that 1,000 mile check would make any difference is if it wasn't properly tq'd at the factory--- which, wouldn't be big surprise to anyone knowing our cars... Following that, a regular tq check of the part is the only way to mitigate the chances of having a problem-- even for a street car...

Best,

Phil

Edit- P.S. I think it's good that we're rehashing this old thread for the noobs


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

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post #118 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:00 AM
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i know the 2 cars i have checked, and heard also, that they are "allways" lose the first time, and tend to not get very lose after that...

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
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post #119 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:53 AM
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Ya, pretty sure Lotus doesn't have the best practices for ensuring proper tq at the factory...


Phil: NASA 2012 and 2014 TT1 Central Champion, 2005 GG Elige, Rev400, 485+whp REV X

2011 Pearl White Evora, BOE Skunk Works 6 SPD 435WHP || 2014 Black Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP|| 2011 White Evora Skunk Works IPS 390WHP || 2006 CO Elise, Rev400, Steet Car

____________________________________________

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BOE ClamHinge | BOE TVS SuperCharging, The Most Powerful Track-Worthy Forced Induction | EFI Engine Management | BOE The Essential Fuel Starve Solution| BOE Lotus Tow Package| BOE New-Tech Lotus Race Engines | The Right Oil Filter for Your Lotus | Custom Lotus ECU Tuning


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post #120 of 173 (permalink) Old 08-19-2009, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apk919 View Post
I can't find where it mentioned the change, but the current spec is 60Nm

EDIT: This is from my downloaded version of the Service Manual from late 2007
FYI, in case you don't want to look, don't have a Nm wrench, whatever:
60 Nm = 44.253728956681634 ft#


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