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What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise?

What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise?

96K views 201 replies 84 participants last post by  Fat Pelican 
#1 · (Edited)
<< POLL >> What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise? (for Street Use)

Since I found it to be IMPOSSIBLE to find the recommended Havoline Synthetic 5W40 motor oil, I've spent the rest of the day researching alternatives.

I tried to list all the options that have been mentioned on this forum. If you choose '"Other", list it below.

Here are the cheapest places I found for these-
Red Line 'Street' 5W-40
http://www.soloperformance.com/Defau...&productID=126

AMSOIL 'European Car Formula' 5W-40
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/Sea...x?CategoryID=8

Mobil 1 ‘European Car Formula’ 0W-40
http://www.store.yahoo.com/parkplace...1trismoto.html
 
#53 ·
FlyLo said:
The manual is pretty explicit about not expecting the oil coolers to be flushed.
Were does it say that? The only reference is on page 100 which states: "On cars fitted with front mounted oil coolers, it is not necessary routinely to attempt to drain the oil cooler circuit"
It is my opinion that this has been written for two reasons the K.I.S.S theory and the fact that Lotus doesnt have a factory (ie, Special Tool) machine to flush engines and coolers with.
When I raced for TRD my local Toyota dealership used a BG engine oil flush machine on my Celica, pretty much the same engine and cooler! Our engine is known to "shear" oil very rapidly in the Toyota world, sheared oil becomes sludge and can block passages and pick up tubes very quickly.
Tribology (the science of lubrication) teaches us that a system with any amount of oxidized fluid will deteriorate the new fluid at an exponential rate. Knowing this, I'm not gonna leave any oxidized oil in my system. But, of course, you can do whatever you want with your car.
 
#55 ·
DARBY#33 said:
Knowing this, I'm not gonna leave any oxidized oil in my system. But, of course, you can do whatever you want with your car.
The oil capacity of the oil system in the Elise is rather large compared to most cars. You will be changing the oil at least as often as other cars - even if you only change out half (you change more), you are still changing as much oil as you are in other cars. The cooler(s) and extra capacity will greatly help the oil from breaking down as fast as it normally would without them. Synthetic oil will be used that won't "wear out" as fast as regular oil. The life limitation on the oil is not the wear factor, but the contamination factor - the oil gets "dirty" much, much, much faster than it will even begin to wear out.

Flushing the oil cooler/lines is over kill. If not done perfectly, it will induce air in the oiling system, which has the potential to do much more harm than some "old" oil will ever do.

:shrug:

But it's your car, and your money. Feel free to do what you want...
 
#56 ·
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have a simple analogy here:
Jer is sick and has an "accident" in his pants. He strips off his clothes and jumps in to a soothing bath. He washes off his "accident" in the tub. Jer then drains only 2/3rds of the bath water and then refills the tub with hot water. Tim, immediatetly, strips off his clothes and jumps in Jer's tub and actually enjoys it?
If you noticed it doesn't matter how much water was originally in the tub, it is still contaminated with Jer's "accident".
As far as air goes, there is a little air in the oiling system at all times. Case in point, each manufacturer says not to overfill the oiling system so the crank doesn't aereate the oil. When filled properly, there is a space between the crank and the oil level what is in that space? Air. This machine injects a motor oil additive so there isnt a dry start up.
Besides, the man who invented this oil flush machine holds a double doctorate in Chemical Engineering AND Automotive Engineering. He also invented Techron/Techrolene and was in the group whom perfected synthetic motor oil. He is a god in our industry.
I'm sorry that I'm acting like a "know-it-all", I am a Technical Advisor for a automotive lubricant and chemical manufacturer...it's what I do.
Hopefully you guys aren't mad at me.
 
#57 ·
DARBY#33 said:
As far as air goes, there is a little air in the oiling system at all times. Case in point, each manufacturer says not to overfill the oiling system so the crank doesn't aereate the oil. When filled properly, there is a space between the crank and the oil level what is in that space? Air.
While I agree with you on most of your points, this one I don't. The pressurized oil system shouldn't have air in it. If it does, all sorts of problems can arise. The non-pressurized part (like the sump) certainly will have air above the oil, no problem there.
But you don't want air in the pressurized oil lines. That is why Lotus has a detailed proceedure for bleeding the cooler/lines.

It looks like the flush system will prime the lines from what I can see, but I don't really know that. If it does, than it would be a great choice. At least in my point of view. I would certainly like to get as much of the oil out as possible (although there is no way to get every bit out, unless you completely dismantly the engine)- so you will always have a bit of 'mess' in there.:rolleyes:
 
#58 ·
Point taken, I was wrong to say that about the air in the non-pressurized side of the system. I think I was busy trying not to vomit over my own analogy.
This machine does prime and inject a lubricant called MOA. Whats left in the system is ounces not quarts. Much more acceptable to me.
Thanks for the correction
 
#59 ·
DARBY#33 said:
Were does it say that? The only reference is on page 100 which states: "On cars fitted with front mounted oil coolers, it is not necessary routinely to attempt to drain the oil cooler circuit"
It is my opinion that this has been written for two reasons the K.I.S.S theory and the fact that Lotus doesnt have a factory (ie, Special Tool) machine to flush engines and coolers with.
When I raced for TRD my local Toyota dealership used a BG engine oil flush machine on my Celica, pretty much the same engine and cooler! Our engine is known to "shear" oil very rapidly in the Toyota world, sheared oil becomes sludge and can block passages and pick up tubes very quickly.
Tribology (the science of lubrication) teaches us that a system with any amount of oxidized fluid will deteriorate the new fluid at an exponential rate. Knowing this, I'm not gonna leave any oxidized oil in my system. But, of course, you can do whatever you want with your car.
My ZR1 has a rather large oil cooler. Most owners never flush or remove it. I took it ou and drained it. The contents were hideous, the engine had NEW oil in it at the time. There was a 1/8" npt plug in the manifold but no way to access the plug. I fixed that. The velocity thru some coolers can be pretty slow and the junk falls out of suspension and sits in the bottom. My point is that there may be reason to assume that can happen until proven otherwise.
There is likely a satisfactory way to dump and refill the coolers. One first needs to see what type of thermostatic control is there. These things never bang open or shut like solenoids, they open slowly. It's not like all of the sudden 100% of what's in the cooler, be it air or oil, starts flowing. Anyway, this should be looked into further, I believe there's a fair amount of oil that's needs to be drained.
 
#62 ·
Where is BG hi-low40 sold in the LA area?

[ I know, probably TMI for you. Automotive chemicals and lubricants are my business so I could go on for days.....but I'll spare you.[/QUOTE]


Darby 33,

Thanks for the scientific approach. It's a better way than polling, but it's good to hear that everyone's as divided about the right oil as I am. Assuming, Darby, that you're not a BG rep :) , Do you know whether BG's product meets Lotus specs? I also noticed that the website for BG only lists HiLow30 instead of 40 as you noted in the test rundown.

Thanks for all the info:clap:
 
#65 ·
MikeW said:
My ZR1 has a rather large oil cooler. Most owners never flush or remove it. I took it ou and drained it. The contents were hideous, the engine had NEW oil in it at the time. There was a 1/8" npt plug in the manifold but no way to access the plug. I fixed that. The velocity thru some coolers can be pretty slow and the junk falls out of suspension and sits in the bottom. My point is that there may be reason to assume that can happen until proven otherwise.
There is likely a satisfactory way to dump and refill the coolers. One first needs to see what type of thermostatic control is there. These things never bang open or shut like solenoids, they open slowly. It's not like all of the sudden 100% of what's in the cooler, be it air or oil, starts flowing. Anyway, this should be looked into further, I believe there's a fair amount of oil that's needs to be drained.
This is real life exerience of what can happen.
 
#68 · (Edited)
R'elise Me said:
Do you know whether BG's product meets Lotus specs? I also noticed that the website for BG only lists HiLow30 instead of 40 as you noted in the test rundown.

Thanks for all the info:clap:
Yes the BG product would meet Lotus specs. Yes they have a 40wt oil.
But DON"T USE IT! (I can't believe I just said that). BG doesnt sell enough oil to justify the $1mil or so it takes to get the API "doughnut" stamped on the back of the bottles. It has been proved in court that it meets and EXCEEDS all of the API requrements, but no one wants to go thru all that time and expense when you can just pick another oil.
I use it in my 05 Excursion and I used it in my Celica, but their manufacturers aren't voiding warranties alot either. As a matter of fact, Toyota goes out of its way not to sully their reputation.
BTW, a manufacturer cannot legally specify a brand of oil ONLY a specification for a oil.
SEE:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm
for more info see "Tie-In Sales" provision.
 
#69 ·
Surferjer said:
I have thick skin, so no worries. Tim's not my type for a shared bathtub experience, though. rotfl
:wave: Bad analogy - I haven't had a bath in many years. I do shower daily however...:D


MikeW said:
what type of thermostatic control is there. These things never bang open or shut like solenoids, they open slowly. It's not like all of the sudden 100% of what's in the cooler, be it air or oil, starts flowing.
I think that you would find that the thermostat restricts the flow of oil depending on the temperature, but any air on the system would readily flow through the system - kind of like the coolant thermostat.


DARBY#33 said:
BTW, a manufacturer cannot legally specify a brand of oil ONLY a specification for a oil.
For the record, Lotus does not specify a brand of oil. They name Havoline as an example, and provide the specs that must be met.


Back to the subject of leaving in the "dirty oil". Consider that there's twice as much oil in the Elise's system (OK, I know that's not accurate, but it makes the explanation better) as a regular car. In a given mileage, it only gets half as dirty. Change out half, and the "new" oil is on a quarter dirty. It will never be as clean as completely fresh oil, but it will never be more than half dirty. Unlike regular cars that go from clean to completely dirty in the given mileage.

Yes, it would be better to change out all the oil. But in order to do that, you are going to have to make and break fittings to the coolers, and introduce air into the pressurized oil system - which must be a concern, even for the flushing system since it uses a special "startup lubricant" as part of the flushing (note the Lotus warning about using "additives" in the oil system. I suspect that the possibility of causing damage to the engine by draining and refilling the coolers out weighs the advantage of a complete oil change. I certainly doubt that it is worth the additional cost and effort.

I'll happily change my oil more often that factory requirements, and continue to use a good quality synthetic oil...:shrug:
 
#70 · (Edited)
TimMullen said:
:wave: Bad analogy - I haven't had a bath in many years. I do shower daily however...:D
Sorry, I was just trying to make sure this discussion stayed jovial. I hope I didnt offend you.

[/quote=TimMullen]I think that you would find that the thermostat restricts the flow of oil depending on the temperature, but any air on the system would readily flow through the system - kind of like the coolant thermostat.[/quote]

The engine oil flush machine does its cleaning (with an oil based cleaner as to not hurt the engine) with the engine running and to full operating temperature. So any kind of thermostat would be open fully. A adaptor is screwed onto the oil filter housing (just like a new filter) and has two lines (in and out) that go into the machine. The machine has a 5 micron filter (which a new one is used every time) to capture sludge/metal,etc. 15 to 20 min after hook up, you stop the flush process, drain the oil, blow air thru the system inject MOA, refill the system, new filter, top off.....DONE! 30 mins tops.

PHP:
[/QUOTE]For the record, Lotus does not specify a brand of oil. They name Havoline as an example, and provide the specs that must be met.[/QUOTE]
PHP:
I didn't mean to imply that they did. That was ment to empower readers with the knowledge that ANY oil that they want to use, as long as it meets manufacturer specification and the American Petroleum Institute specification, CAN BE USED!!! As well as, a manufacturer CANNOT VOID a warranty if said oil meets the criteria.

PHP:
[/QUOTE]Back to the subject of leaving in the "dirty oil". Consider that there's twice as much oil in the Elise's system (OK, I know that's not accurate, but it makes the explanation better) as a regular car. In a given mileage, it only gets half as dirty. Change out half, and the "new" oil is on a quarter dirty. It will never be as clean as completely fresh oil, but it will never be more than half dirty. Unlike regular cars that go from clean to completely dirty in the given mileage.[/QUOTE]
PHP:
Engine oil is made to do some specific jobs. One is to lubricate another is to control deposits (Carbon) and Acids (Sulfuric and others) by suspending them. "Used oil", when it can no longer lubricate (not likely anymore) or it can no longer hold any more acid or deposits (this is really why we change our oil nowadays) deteriorates new oils ability to control acids and deposits at an EXPONENTIAL rate. Which, matematically, means that the old oils inability to do its job will affect the new oils ability to do its job faster than the new oil can keep up. When the oil cant keep up with the deposits and acids they fall out of suspension and become sludge.

PHP:
[/QUOTE]Yes, it would be better to change out all the oil. But in order to do that, you are going to have to make and break fittings to the coolers, and introduce air into the pressurized oil system - which must be a concern, even for the flushing system since it uses a special "startup lubricant" as part of the flushing (note the Lotus warning about using "additives" in the oil system. I suspect that the possibility of causing damage to the engine by draining and refilling the coolers out weighs the advantage of a complete oil change. I certainly doubt that it is worth the additional cost and effort.[/QUOTE]
PHP:
Again, it only takes 30 min to do this service. The adapter screws on to the oil filter housing.
As far as "additives" go, stay away from teflon or any other P.T.F.E.'s (solids) of course, but without "additives" no engine oil ever made would protect your engine. All oils have additives. Crude oil, base stock or any other form of raw material needs an additive package to perform. The additive package actually determins how much the oil costs. A $.99 quart of oil doesn't have as much additive as a $9.00 quart of oil. MOA is a pure 11oz can of (liquid) additive. Additives are our FRIENDS, not a dirty word. They are the "good stuff" in our oils. They are what take care of carbon and acids in our oils.
 
#71 ·
DARBY#33 said:
Sorry, I was just trying to make sure this discussion stayed jovial. I hope I didn't offend you.
Not at all, hence my :D ...

I fairly thick skinned as long as things don't get personal, and it's obvious that the bathtub analogy was meant in good humor. This is just a discussion, after all, with different points of view. No matter how wrong your's may be. -poke-

(For the record, that last sentence was made in jest. ;)
I acknowledge the validity of your points and concerns. :up:
We just differ on the seriousness of them in the real world.)
 
#72 ·
DARBY#33 said:
Yes the BG product would meet Lotus specs. Yes they have a 40wt oil.
But DON"T USE IT! (I can't believe I just said that). BG doesnt sell enough oil to justify the $1mil or so it takes to get the API "doughnut" stamped on the back of the bottles. It has been proved in court that it meets and EXCEEDS all of the API requrements, but no one wants to go thru all that time and expense when you can just pick another oil.


Darby,

So you're saying it meets spec, but not officially, so don't use it since Lotus will void my engine warranty. Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks.
 
#73 ·
R'elise Me said:
Darby,

So you're saying it meets spec, but not officially, so don't use it since Lotus will void my engine warranty. Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks.
Lotus ultimately would loose this court case (if it went that far), because you used BG oil, if they tried and void your warranty. But, they would have enough of a case to cost you time and alot of money until the final outcome. Not worth it to me for my L.S.E. and its warranty.
Altho, if you start using BG MOA part #110 before 36k mi, BG has a "Protection Plan" that will pay you up to $3000 if you have an oil related engine failure all the way up to 150,000 mi. All at no cost.

If one doesn't want to flush their engine oil, they should AT LEAST add a can of BG MOA part #110 to help hold the extra carbon and acids in suspension that were left behind from not changing all of the oil.
 
#75 ·
All that oil and stuff

Not that reading for a couple of evenings makes me an expert (definition of an expert; an "ex" is a thing that was and; a "spirt" is a drip under pressure).

Everyone drives different especially a performance car. One oil may be better for the car based on how it is used. For a street car that is also tracked it would be difficult to determine which oil it would be best.

Mobile Oil - Based on their website it looks like they discontinued the 5W40 Mobile One. The 5W40 is now said to be for diesel and older cars (sounds like they have introduced additional supplements probably a detergent).

Mixing 0W40 with 10W40 does not give you 5W40. The first two are different oils.

It is OK to mix oils syn with syn or mineral with mineral but not syn with mineral. Probably best to stay with the same weight oil as you can change about 50% of the oil each time.

The singularly most important thing about oil is to change it on a regular basis.

Seems like 5W40 is a dying oil - can't find any of it here locally. I ordered some from a place back east.

regarding reading and info:

http://www.gwocgb.co.uk/documents/tgw_mc-oil.pdf

Good and fun reading. Written for motorcycles but it explains it well to a non oilgeek (no insult intended as one of my hats at work is the office computer geek).

http://www.engineoilinfo.com

Great basic understand of oil and a place you can buy their reports on specific oil (report costs 9.95) no I did not buy any of them.

My conclusion

1 - Change your oil on a regular basis.
2 - And stick with syn 5W40 unless and until Lotus says otherwise.

maagjr thanks for the cite.

have fun

Nick
 
#76 ·
DARBY#33 said:
If one doesn't want to flush their engine oil, they should AT LEAST add a can of BG MOA part #110 to help hold the extra carbon and acids in suspension that were left behind from not changing all of the oil.
From the Owner's Manual:
 

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