What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise? - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
View Poll Results: What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise?
MOTUL 8100 X-cess 5W-40 21 5.63%
MOTUL 300 V Power 5W-40 23 6.17%
Red Line 'Street' 5W-40 29 7.77%
AMSOIL 'European Car Formula' 5W-40 38 10.19%
Mobil 1 ‘European Car Formula’ 0W-40 70 18.77%
Mobil 1 ‘Turbo Diesel Truck’ 5W-40 45 12.06%
Mobil Delvac 1 ‘Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil’ 5W-40 11 2.95%
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 or 5W-50 54 14.48%
Havoline Synthetic 5W-40 (It's avail. in your area) 32 8.58%
OTHER… 50 13.40%
Voters: 373. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 12:27 PM
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I hope you didn't take offense...I was just funnin!

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post #62 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 01:02 PM
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Where is BG hi-low40 sold in the LA area?

[ I know, probably TMI for you. Automotive chemicals and lubricants are my business so I could go on for days.....but I'll spare you.[/QUOTE]


Darby 33,

Thanks for the scientific approach. It's a better way than polling, but it's good to hear that everyone's as divided about the right oil as I am. Assuming, Darby, that you're not a BG rep , Do you know whether BG's product meets Lotus specs? I also noticed that the website for BG only lists HiLow30 instead of 40 as you noted in the test rundown.

Thanks for all the info
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post #63 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 01:06 PM
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I have thick skin, so no worries. Tim's not my type for a shared bathtub experience, though.

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post #64 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 02:40 PM
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OK I read the owners manual

see the last sentence.

have fun

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post #65 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeW
My ZR1 has a rather large oil cooler. Most owners never flush or remove it. I took it ou and drained it. The contents were hideous, the engine had NEW oil in it at the time. There was a 1/8" npt plug in the manifold but no way to access the plug. I fixed that. The velocity thru some coolers can be pretty slow and the junk falls out of suspension and sits in the bottom. My point is that there may be reason to assume that can happen until proven otherwise.
There is likely a satisfactory way to dump and refill the coolers. One first needs to see what type of thermostatic control is there. These things never bang open or shut like solenoids, they open slowly. It's not like all of the sudden 100% of what's in the cooler, be it air or oil, starts flowing. Anyway, this should be looked into further, I believe there's a fair amount of oil that's needs to be drained.
This is real life exerience of what can happen.

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post #66 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 03:05 PM
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Jer, does Tim have the wrong "plumbing".

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post #67 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 03:27 PM
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Well, Tim is so hung up on following the rules too much for me. I like rule breakers.



And his plumbing is wrong for me, too.



Darby-you have a pM.

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post #68 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R'elise Me
Do you know whether BG's product meets Lotus specs? I also noticed that the website for BG only lists HiLow30 instead of 40 as you noted in the test rundown.

Thanks for all the info
Yes the BG product would meet Lotus specs. Yes they have a 40wt oil.
But DON"T USE IT! (I can't believe I just said that). BG doesnt sell enough oil to justify the $1mil or so it takes to get the API "doughnut" stamped on the back of the bottles. It has been proved in court that it meets and EXCEEDS all of the API requrements, but no one wants to go thru all that time and expense when you can just pick another oil.
I use it in my 05 Excursion and I used it in my Celica, but their manufacturers aren't voiding warranties alot either. As a matter of fact, Toyota goes out of its way not to sully their reputation.
BTW, a manufacturer cannot legally specify a brand of oil ONLY a specification for a oil.
SEE:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/warranty.htm
for more info see "Tie-In Sales" provision.

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post #69 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surferjer
I have thick skin, so no worries. Tim's not my type for a shared bathtub experience, though.
Bad analogy - I haven't had a bath in many years. I do shower daily however...


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeW
what type of thermostatic control is there. These things never bang open or shut like solenoids, they open slowly. It's not like all of the sudden 100% of what's in the cooler, be it air or oil, starts flowing.
I think that you would find that the thermostat restricts the flow of oil depending on the temperature, but any air on the system would readily flow through the system - kind of like the coolant thermostat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
BTW, a manufacturer cannot legally specify a brand of oil ONLY a specification for a oil.
For the record, Lotus does not specify a brand of oil. They name Havoline as an example, and provide the specs that must be met.


Back to the subject of leaving in the "dirty oil". Consider that there's twice as much oil in the Elise's system (OK, I know that's not accurate, but it makes the explanation better) as a regular car. In a given mileage, it only gets half as dirty. Change out half, and the "new" oil is on a quarter dirty. It will never be as clean as completely fresh oil, but it will never be more than half dirty. Unlike regular cars that go from clean to completely dirty in the given mileage.

Yes, it would be better to change out all the oil. But in order to do that, you are going to have to make and break fittings to the coolers, and introduce air into the pressurized oil system - which must be a concern, even for the flushing system since it uses a special "startup lubricant" as part of the flushing (note the Lotus warning about using "additives" in the oil system. I suspect that the possibility of causing damage to the engine by draining and refilling the coolers out weighs the advantage of a complete oil change. I certainly doubt that it is worth the additional cost and effort.

I'll happily change my oil more often that factory requirements, and continue to use a good quality synthetic oil...




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post #70 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
Bad analogy - I haven't had a bath in many years. I do shower daily however...
Sorry, I was just trying to make sure this discussion stayed jovial. I hope I didnt offend you.

[/quote=TimMullen]I think that you would find that the thermostat restricts the flow of oil depending on the temperature, but any air on the system would readily flow through the system - kind of like the coolant thermostat.[/quote]

The engine oil flush machine does its cleaning (with an oil based cleaner as to not hurt the engine) with the engine running and to full operating temperature. So any kind of thermostat would be open fully. A adaptor is screwed onto the oil filter housing (just like a new filter) and has two lines (in and out) that go into the machine. The machine has a 5 micron filter (which a new one is used every time) to capture sludge/metal,etc. 15 to 20 min after hook up, you stop the flush process, drain the oil, blow air thru the system inject MOA, refill the system, new filter, top off.....DONE! 30 mins tops.

[/QUOTE]For the record, Lotus does not specify a brand of oil. They name Havoline as an example, and provide the specs that must be met.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean to imply that they did. That was ment to empower readers with the knowledge that ANY oil that they want to use, as long as it meets manufacturer specification and the American Petroleum Institute specification, CAN BE USED!!! As well as, a manufacturer CANNOT VOID a warranty if said oil meets the criteria.

[/QUOTE]Back to the subject of leaving in the "dirty oil". Consider that there's twice as much oil in the Elise's system (OK, I know that's not accurate, but it makes the explanation better) as a regular car. In a given mileage, it only gets half as dirty. Change out half, and the "new" oil is on a quarter dirty. It will never be as clean as completely fresh oil, but it will never be more than half dirty. Unlike regular cars that go from clean to completely dirty in the given mileage.[/QUOTE] Engine oil is made to do some specific jobs. One is to lubricate another is to control deposits (Carbon) and Acids (Sulfuric and others) by suspending them. "Used oil", when it can no longer lubricate (not likely anymore) or it can no longer hold any more acid or deposits (this is really why we change our oil nowadays) deteriorates new oils ability to control acids and deposits at an EXPONENTIAL rate. Which, matematically, means that the old oils inability to do its job will affect the new oils ability to do its job faster than the new oil can keep up. When the oil cant keep up with the deposits and acids they fall out of suspension and become sludge.

[/QUOTE]Yes, it would be better to change out all the oil. But in order to do that, you are going to have to make and break fittings to the coolers, and introduce air into the pressurized oil system - which must be a concern, even for the flushing system since it uses a special "startup lubricant" as part of the flushing (note the Lotus warning about using "additives" in the oil system. I suspect that the possibility of causing damage to the engine by draining and refilling the coolers out weighs the advantage of a complete oil change. I certainly doubt that it is worth the additional cost and effort.[/QUOTE]Again, it only takes 30 min to do this service. The adapter screws on to the oil filter housing.
As far as "additives" go, stay away from teflon or any other P.T.F.E.'s (solids) of course, but without "additives" no engine oil ever made would protect your engine. All oils have additives. Crude oil, base stock or any other form of raw material needs an additive package to perform. The additive package actually determins how much the oil costs. A $.99 quart of oil doesn't have as much additive as a $9.00 quart of oil. MOA is a pure 11oz can of (liquid) additive. Additives are our FRIENDS, not a dirty word. They are the "good stuff" in our oils. They are what take care of carbon and acids in our oils.

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post #71 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Sorry, I was just trying to make sure this discussion stayed jovial. I hope I didn't offend you.
Not at all, hence my ...

I fairly thick skinned as long as things don't get personal, and it's obvious that the bathtub analogy was meant in good humor. This is just a discussion, after all, with different points of view. No matter how wrong your's may be.

(For the record, that last sentence was made in jest.
I acknowledge the validity of your points and concerns.
We just differ on the seriousness of them in the real world.)




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post #72 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 07:26 AM
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[QUOTE=DARBY#33]Yes the BG product would meet Lotus specs. Yes they have a 40wt oil.
But DON"T USE IT! (I can't believe I just said that). BG doesnt sell enough oil to justify the $1mil or so it takes to get the API "doughnut" stamped on the back of the bottles. It has been proved in court that it meets and EXCEEDS all of the API requrements, but no one wants to go thru all that time and expense when you can just pick another oil.


Darby,

So you're saying it meets spec, but not officially, so don't use it since Lotus will void my engine warranty. Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks.
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post #73 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R'elise Me

Darby,

So you're saying it meets spec, but not officially, so don't use it since Lotus will void my engine warranty. Am I understanding you correctly?
Thanks.
Lotus ultimately would loose this court case (if it went that far), because you used BG oil, if they tried and void your warranty. But, they would have enough of a case to cost you time and alot of money until the final outcome. Not worth it to me for my L.S.E. and its warranty.
Altho, if you start using BG MOA part #110 before 36k mi, BG has a "Protection Plan" that will pay you up to $3000 if you have an oil related engine failure all the way up to 150,000 mi. All at no cost.

If one doesn't want to flush their engine oil, they should AT LEAST add a can of BG MOA part #110 to help hold the extra carbon and acids in suspension that were left behind from not changing all of the oil.

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post #74 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-06-2006, 05:40 PM
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Well Let me give my 2c here is what made me to use Mobil 1 on all my cars and change oil every 4k miles

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html

read it it is very informative and real results

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post #75 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 08:48 AM
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All that oil and stuff

Not that reading for a couple of evenings makes me an expert (definition of an expert; an "ex" is a thing that was and; a "spirt" is a drip under pressure).

Everyone drives different especially a performance car. One oil may be better for the car based on how it is used. For a street car that is also tracked it would be difficult to determine which oil it would be best.

Mobile Oil - Based on their website it looks like they discontinued the 5W40 Mobile One. The 5W40 is now said to be for diesel and older cars (sounds like they have introduced additional supplements probably a detergent).

Mixing 0W40 with 10W40 does not give you 5W40. The first two are different oils.

It is OK to mix oils syn with syn or mineral with mineral but not syn with mineral. Probably best to stay with the same weight oil as you can change about 50% of the oil each time.

The singularly most important thing about oil is to change it on a regular basis.

Seems like 5W40 is a dying oil - can't find any of it here locally. I ordered some from a place back east.

regarding reading and info:

http://www.gwocgb.co.uk/documents/tgw_mc-oil.pdf

Good and fun reading. Written for motorcycles but it explains it well to a non oilgeek (no insult intended as one of my hats at work is the office computer geek).

http://www.engineoilinfo.com

Great basic understand of oil and a place you can buy their reports on specific oil (report costs 9.95) no I did not buy any of them.

My conclusion

1 - Change your oil on a regular basis.
2 - And stick with syn 5W40 unless and until Lotus says otherwise.

maagjr thanks for the cite.

have fun

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post #76 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
If one doesn't want to flush their engine oil, they should AT LEAST add a can of BG MOA part #110 to help hold the extra carbon and acids in suspension that were left behind from not changing all of the oil.
From the Owner's Manual:



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post #77 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 01:11 PM
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Tim, this is whats known as a "Bully" statement. They carefully word the statement by using the words "RECOMMEND" and "MAY".
They are counting on people assuming this means "CANNOT" and "WILL" (they got ya') . If they used the words "CANNOT" and "WILL" (and the oil meets API specs) this statement would be ILLEGAL and the Federal Trade Commission would stop it in a heartbeat.
Interesting that Toyota doesn't say that in their Factory Service Manual,IIRC.
By not 'believing' in additives (ALL ENGINE OIL HAS ADDITIVES, which is the funny and ironic part of Lotus' statement) you are slapping ALL Tribeologists and Lubrication Engineers around the world in the face and telling them they earn their living on some sort of 'dodge' or 'hustle'. As well as inplying that the science of Tribology is total B.S.
I for one, dont believe that a small company like Lotus (whom probably doesn't even have a full time Tribologist or Lubrication Engineer on staff) knows more than a whole industry of scientists.
I hear that Lotus, is working on a 5w-40 TOURING oil. I know,I know...assume the position!

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post #78 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 01:26 PM
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I think more likely it is just not to use additives that are not in the oil as formulated from the manufacturer. From my very limited understanding, not all additives should be used together. So there is no way for a company to properly formulate an additive to all oils.

I think perhaps the 'safe' approach is to not use any 'third party' additives, but instead use a high quality oil that should have all the 'proper' additives already.

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post #79 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
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I think more likely it is just not to use additives that are not in the oil as formulated from the manufacturer. From my very limited understanding, not all additives should be used together. So there is no way for a company to properly formulate an additive to all oils.


Again, you too are saying that a whole industry of scientists and chemists don't know what they are doing.

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post #80 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Again, you too are saying that a whole industry of scientists and chemists don't know what they are doing.
No, he is specifically saying that you should use oil that meets the specifications required by Lotus. Adding third party additives (i.e. STP, Slick 50, Marvel Mystery oil, etc.) could be the basis of voiding the warranty,

Since the oil manufacturer blends their oil and their additive package to meet the specifications, adding other things to the mix could/can change the properties. If the engineers and chemists that worked for the oil manufacturers believed that their oil needed those after market additives, they would add those additives to their original blend.

Adding aftermarket additives can have detrimental affects to the oil. For instance, adding a can of STP to you crankcase back in the old days (do they still make it?), effectively raised the viscosity of the oil. Adding it to 30W oil would make it effectively 40W or 50W oil (which would often quiet a knocking engine, so people though it was good for all engines).

Add things to your oil all you want. But if you engine goes TU, then you may not be covered by the warranty. Same if you don't use 5-40W synthetic oil. The stuff may or may not be good for you engine (other oil and/or additives), but it won't meet the warranty requirements. Will it make a difference?

Quote:
Tim, this is whats known as a "Bully" statement. They carefully word the statement by using the words "RECOMMEND" and "MAY".
They are counting on people assuming this means "CANNOT" and "WILL" (they got ya') . If they used the words "CANNOT" and "WILL" (and the oil meets API specs) this statement would be ILLEGAL and the Federal Trade Commission would stop it in a heartbeat.
What does this have to do with oil? We are talking about aftermarket additives. Use them, and you may void your warranty. There's nothing "Bully" about it. I bet that they also don't recommend that you add water, antifreeze, sugar, sand, olive oil, or anything else into the engine.

The specifically state that you much use 4-40W oil that meets the specifications provided. They recommend Texaco Havoline because they have extensively tested it, but they don't require it. They also state to not add "extra" things to the engine oil.




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I love being married. It's so great to find that one person that you want to annoy for the rest of your life. - Rita Rudner


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05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
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