What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise? - Page 5 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
View Poll Results: What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise?
MOTUL 8100 X-cess 5W-40 21 5.63%
MOTUL 300 V Power 5W-40 23 6.17%
Red Line 'Street' 5W-40 29 7.77%
AMSOIL 'European Car Formula' 5W-40 38 10.19%
Mobil 1 ‘European Car Formula’ 0W-40 70 18.77%
Mobil 1 ‘Turbo Diesel Truck’ 5W-40 45 12.06%
Mobil Delvac 1 ‘Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil’ 5W-40 11 2.95%
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 or 5W-50 54 14.48%
Havoline Synthetic 5W-40 (It's avail. in your area) 32 8.58%
OTHER… 50 13.40%
Voters: 373. You may not vote on this poll

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post #81 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Again, you too are saying that a whole industry of scientists and chemists don't know what they are doing.

Nope, just saying I think the people making the oil can do a better job on additives than the people selling 'extra' additives (for high-end oils).

I think marketing has a huge amount to do with it all (the cynical part coming out).

>--------
Tim, I posted this before I read yours. Just what I was trying to say.
From what I was told, STP only increases viscocity, nothing else at all. I don't know if that is true, but the person that told me I believe.

mh

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post #82 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-07-2006, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TimMullen
No, he is specifically saying that you should use oil that meets the specifications required by Lotus. Adding third party additives (i.e. STP, Slick 50, Marvel Mystery oil, etc.) could be the basis of voiding the warranty,

***OK, I see the problem. You didn't read or understand when I said "stay away from Teflon or P.T.F.E's". Two of the 3 that you named are teflon or have P.T.F.E's in them. They all are VERY old school technology, if one's knowledge base only contains these type of products, then I would have to agree with you. The problem here is the technology has moved light years foward from these old school products.

Since the oil manufacturer blends their oil and their additive package to meet the specifications, adding other things to the mix could/can change the properties. If the engineers and chemists that worked for the oil manufacturers believed that their oil needed those after market additives, they would add those additives to their original blend.

*** Again, the new technology additives are the SAME additive that is ALREADY IN THE OIL. The list of additives, that are beneficial to modern engine oils, is FINITE. The list does NOT include anything like: mustard, lint, earwax or Ajax. The additives I'm talking about are just more concentrated blends of "active ingredient" that are already in the oil. Engineers and chemists ALREADY put the same additives in their oil, just not enough. So why didn't they put more additive package in their oil when they made it?......
MONEY!!! Its the most expensive part of producing an engine oil.

Adding aftermarket additives can have detrimental affects to the oil. For instance, adding a can of STP to you crankcase back in the old days (do they still make it?), effectively raised the viscosity of the oil. Adding it to 30W oil would make it effectively 40W or 50W oil (which would often quiet a knocking engine, so people though it was good for all engines).

*** Yes, I agree adding aftermarket additives can have detrimental effects to the oil....if the product in question is using technology that is 50 years old. Again, STP was invented in the late 50's, ALOT has changed in the industry since then. Just like the flat head 8 cyl engine in 3 ton cars have given way to high reving inline 4 cyl engine in cars that dont way even a ton.

Add things to your oil all you want. But if you engine goes TU, then you may not be covered by the warranty. Same if you don't use 5-40W synthetic oil. The stuff may or may not be good for you engine (other oil and/or additives), but it won't meet the warranty requirements. Will it make a difference?

*** If the additive package that I add to my oil is the SAME chemical construction as whats already in Havoline 5w-40, do you really believe that they could void my warranty and get away with it?? I don't.


What does this have to do with oil? We are talking about aftermarket additives. Use them, and you may void your warranty. There's nothing "Bully" about it. I bet that they also don't recommend that you add water, antifreeze, sugar, sand, olive oil, or anything else into the engine.

***WOAH, big boy! I accidentally wrote oil and not additive package...sorry! I ment "bully" like the kid at school who takes your lunch money, not like BS. They are trying to bully you into thinking that thay said that you cannot use additives and they will void your warranty if you do.

The specifically state that you much use 4-40W oil that meets the specifications provided. They recommend Texaco Havoline because they have extensively tested it, but they don't require it. They also state to not add "extra" things to the engine oil.
*** If you think that Lotus did "extensive" testing of Havoline oil... I've got some magic beans that I would be willing to trade you for your Elise.
I apologize in advance for that statement... it just needed to be said....sorry!

Plus ,I believe, that you are talking about products that are sold over the counter at an auto parts store and I am talking about professionally installed products that you can't buy over the counter but can have them installed at a Dealership or auto repair facility. What I mean by that, is you are talking about aspirin and I am talking about morphine.

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post #83 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 08:35 AM
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Mark Darby

What are the professionally installed products not available over the counter?

Please be specific.

have fun

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post #84 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 09:02 AM
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BG MOA part #110 is one.
A company called M.O.C. has one.
Wynnes has a professional series.
And even Valvoline has what they call VPS or Valvoline Professional Series.

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post #85 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 10:19 AM
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Professional??????

http://www.texasautocraft.com/BG_MOA.htm

hardly looks like a commercial quantity purchase - can even use paypal.

will pass on the rest.

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post #86 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 10:56 AM
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If I understand, you say the major oil manufacturers can't make a quality oil with the right mix of additives?

So you are saying that a whole industry of scientists and chemists don't know what they are doing.


(sorry, couldn't resist)
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post #87 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
http://www.texasautocraft.com/BG_MOA.htm

hardly looks like a commercial quantity purchase - can even use paypal.

will pass on the rest.

have fun

Nick
This type of sale is NOT authorized by BG Products and will be passing this link on to our legal dept. Give it a couple of weeks, it'll be gone.
Pretty presumptuous of you to say that just because you found some ahole improperly selling the product thru a website or Ebay. Especially when you DIDN'T EVEN READ THE LABLE ON THE CAN which states: "FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY"
The official website is: www.bgprod.com
Then you have to find a shop or dealership, unless you are an ASE certified technician who can call the speciallized distributor in your area and they will bring them to your shop and then train you how to use it.

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post #88 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus54
If I understand, you say the major oil manufacturers can't make a quality oil with the right mix of additives?

So you are saying that a whole industry of scientists and chemists don't know what they are doing.


(sorry, couldn't resist)
No, you don't understand. They can make and oil that has a higher amount of additive package. Slow down when you read my posts 'cause I clearly said that already.
Many people wouldn't pay the much higher price they would have to charge you for it. Then Wal-Mart brand engine oil sales would go thru the roof and their marketshare would decline!

(Back at ya)

I'm also dissapointed that Tim missed my joke about Lotus comming out with a Tournig oil...what, no thwack? I even assumed the position to correctly take it...guess I'm still a bit of an outsider to you guys.

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post #89 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 12:41 PM
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Most commercial oils come with an additive package that's very well designed for normal automotive use, and adding any other "snake oil" without having a really good reason and knowing exactly what you have seems like trouble. I'd be especially wary of "professional" or other "secret" products where the company's secretive about what kind of snake their oil additive comes from.

Using an API-rated motor oil won't void your warranty as minimum and maximum levels of various additives are regulated; putting an additive in an API-rated oil changes the additive levels and may well bring the oil out of API spec and void your warranty. If API specs say I should only have so much zinc, for example, why would I want to add several times as much and void my warranty?

Buying good oil and not messing with it is cheaper and safer. Good luck,

John
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post #90 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Plus ,I believe, that you are talking about products that are sold over the counter at an auto parts store and I am talking about professionally installed products that you can't buy over the counter but can have them installed at a Dealership or auto repair facility.
You know, originally, Slick50 was only to be professionally installed. Long time ago, STP was regularly installed by the professionals at dealerships. I know that I was often requested to "professionally install" STP (and several others) into cars that were in the shop for servicing.

Sorry, your products may or may not be useful, but I really believe that if the additives were actually necessary or beneficial, then Mobil would be adding it to their oil, Castrol would be adding it to their oil, RedLine would be adding it to their oil, etc.

[quote]Many people wouldn't pay the much higher price they would have to charge you for it. Then Wal-Mart brand engine oil sales would go thru the roof and their marketshare would decline![quote]Hmmm... A few years back, synthetic oil was brand new. It cost a lot more than regular oil for the increase in protection. Judging from the current market, people had no problem paying 5 (or more) times higher for the better oil.

Quote:
I'm also disappointed that Tim missed my joke about Lotus coming out with a Tournig oil...what, no thwack? I even assumed the position to correctly take it...guess I'm still a bit of an outsider to you guys.
I figured I'd let that one go. But if you insist : By the way, there is no position to assume, the thwack is up across your head. And if you were an outsider, you wouldn't be having everyone trying to show you the error of your ways.




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post #91 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jhnmdahl
Most commercial oils come with an additive package that's very well designed for normal automotive use, and adding any other "snake oil" without having a really good reason and knowing exactly what you have seems like trouble. I'd be especially wary of "professional" or other "secret" products where the company's secretive about what kind of snake their oil additive comes from.

Using an API-rated motor oil won't void your warranty as minimum and maximum levels of various additives are regulated; putting an additive in an API-rated oil changes the additive levels and may well bring the oil out of API spec and void your warranty. If API specs say I should only have so much zinc, for example, why would I want to add several times as much and void my warranty?

Buying good oil and not messing with it is cheaper and safer. Good luck,

John
Your assumtion of the API having a MAXIMUM level of additive package is inncorrect. They have minimuns but no maximums. Why do you think that they don't specify a maximum? Because they know that its the good stuff. If they did specify a maximum amount, all oils would be equal and we wouldn't have very many different brands. Brand X would be the same as Brand Y and there wouldn't be a need for brands A thru W or brand Z. As well as, we wouldn't be discussing this thread on Etalk, one oil would be as good as the next.
I'm not sure how you can bastardize the word "professional" to suit your needs here. So your doctor is a quack and your attorney is a shiester? They are professionals aren't they?
Now, the term "snake oil" is down right degrative and offensive and shows great ignorance.

This is my official first one:

now go to the corner and study your Tribology text books.

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post #92 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 01:33 PM
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I agree with Tim on the cost issue. Mobil 1 has a motorcycle specific oil Mobil 1 MX4T. It is quite expensive at something like $9 per quart at the discount places. I buy it, and certainly a lot of others do. Enough to keep them selling it. Could it be better? I don't know. I'm sure it could be specialized for certain uses more and be better for those. Could it use more additives? I don't really know. I have it from one Lube engineer that it was the best they could make for the use. I don't personally know.

I think the oil flush/primer machine looks like a great deal for when you need it. If it could be used without the flushing oil and just to change oil and prime- I'd do it every time. I wouldn't want to leave flushing fluids in there, and even though they say all is removed I'd have to have the proved to me. I have done a lot of engine overhauls, and I don't believe that air pressure through the system will clean out all the nooks and crannies. Much of it- yes, but not all.
I would like to do the flush/prime on my SAAB, since it has almost 100k miles on it and had some sludge buildup from the previous owner. If I can find a local shop that does it with that machine, I'll do it. But I would ask them not to install the additive and I'll just stick with straight Mobil1.

I may certainly be wrong, but I'm always skeptical about such things until I am convinced. I've seen lots of claims over the years.
I also understood that certain additives are indeed regulated.

Glad we can keep this a civil discussion.

Mark

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post #93 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Your assumtion of the API having a MAXIMUM level of additive package is inncorrect. They have minimuns but no maximums. Why do you think that they don't specify a maximum? Because THEY know that its the good stuff. If they did specify a maximum amount, all oils would be equal and we wouldn't have very many different brands. Brand X would be the same as Brand Y and there wouldn't be a need for brands A thru W or brand Z. As well as, we wouldn't be discussing this thread on Etalk, one oil would be as good as the next.
I'm not sure how you can bastardize the word "professional" to suit your needs here. So your doctor is a quack and your attorney is a shiester? They are professionals aren't they?
Now, the term "snake oil" is down right degrative and offensive and shows great ignorance.

This is my official first one:

now go to the corner and study your Tribology text books.
I've worked as a tribologist, and stand by my original post. Further, I didn't attack you, but stated the truth regarding an industry filled with misinformation without pointing out that some of the misinformation in this thread was coming from you. I don't take well to your instructions to stand in a corner or calling me ignorant, when some of your contributions here may do more harm than good.

To give one example, zinc content is limited in motor oil specifications (along with a number of other components), as adding too much will destroy a vehicle's catalytic converter. Also, some oil companies such as Amsoil intentionally exceed the required maximum phosphorous level of .1%, believing their formulation superior to that allowed under API specifications. You can use this oil, but it voids your warranty.

To answer your other question, my doctor and lawyer are professionals who have a legal duty to act in my best interest, and both have professional associations enforcing complex ethical codes designed to protect the public, and are not auto industry botique players selling today's equivalent of underbody rustproofing or paint sealant of dubious quality to inflate their profit margins. My point was that if the product in question was needed, they'd explain what it was, why it was needed, and subject it to true professional scrutiny instead of hiding it.

John

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post #94 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jbone
I saw somebody buying ROTELLA T 5W40 at my Wal-Mart. It was sold in gallon jugs, so I may start using that stuff from now on. It's cheap and I'm sure it's as good as Havoline. It will be A LOT cheaper than Redline.

I understand that Rotella is a group III 'partial' synthetic, not a group IV like Mobil1 and others like it.

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post #95 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TimMullen

Sorry, your products may or may not be useful, but I really believe that if the additives were actually necessary or beneficial, then Mobil would be adding it to their oil, Castrol would be adding it to their oil, RedLine would be adding it to their oil, etc.
Tim,Tim,Tim,Tim......please turn up the volume on your computers speakers when I say it this time.
"ALL OF THOSE OILS HAVE THE SAME BASIC ADDITIVE PACKAGE THAT IS IN BG MOA, JUST IN DIFFERENT QUANTITIES."
As a matter of fact I'm almost sure that Valvoline and Redline both have an additive package (for their professional series of products) that they add to your oil when you have a dealership or repair facility do a engine oil flush on your car. I'll check into that.
Not now, but you and others have referd to not using an additive package is the easiest or safest route to go.
I now agree with you!!
Sure, apathy is MUCH easier and safer than self education.
There is a huge economic factor at stake here for the oil companys. My analogy here would be the light bulb that never burns out. If they made it, how would they sell more light bulbs and feed their families? Same for the oil company's, if they sell you a oil that doesn't break down for 100,000 mi (because the additive package was perfect) they won't sell you as much oil will they? I'm trying to say that you guys aren't giving enough thought to the economic side of this discussion. Which is my answer to the "If they needed it they would already have it" argument.
Thanks for the thwack, its kinda like an initiation to Etalk nowadays.
Its not that I am wrong in this discussion, you're just not taking to the education.

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post #96 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jhnmdahl
I've worked as a tribologist, and stand by my original post. Further, I didn't attack you, but stated the truth regarding an industry filled with misinformation without pointing out that some of the misinformation in this thread was coming from you. I don't take well to your instructions to stand in a corner or calling me ignorant, when some of your contributions here may do more harm than good.

To give one example, zinc content is limited in motor oil specifications (along with a number of other components), as adding too much will destroy a vehicle's catalytic converter. Also, some oil companies such as Amsoil intentionally exceed the required maximum phosphorous level of .1%, believing their formulation superior to that allowed under API specifications. You can use this oil, but it voids your warranty.

To answer your other question, my doctor and lawyer are professionals who have a legal duty to act in my best interest, and both have professional associations enforcing complex ethical codes designed to protect the public, and are not auto industry botique players selling today's equivalent of underbody rustproofing or paint sealant of dubious quality to inflate their profit margins. My point was that if the product in question was needed, they'd explain what it was, why it was needed, and subject it to true professional scrutiny instead of hiding it.

John
I am truely sorry if I offended you. I was trying to keep this discussion light hearted. To no avail.
I am a current member of the S.T.L.E. (Society of Tribeologists and Lubrication Engineers) Oregon Region. I also stand behind what I have said.
Any new fluid has to be tested by the API before it receives its "dougnut"...agreed? The API's tech bulletin (API 1509) labeled "Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System" 15th edition dated 2002. Who's purpose was to set the new standards for the ILSAC GL-4 minimum standards states:
" It is the responsibility of any individual or organization introducing a new technology to perform this vehicle fleet testing, and the responsibility of the oil marketer to ensure the above testing of new technology was satisfactorly completed. No marketer can claim to be acting in a reasonable and prudent manner if the marketer uses a new technology based only on the results of engine sequence testing without verifying the suitablity of the new technology in vehicle fleet testing which simulates the full range of customer operation"... I'm just pointing out that there now must be real world tests of products.
If BG MOA has passed engine sequence testing and fleet testing then given an API dougnut, how in anyone's mind can it justifyably be called "Snake Oil?"
So the API and I are misinforming the good people of Etalk?
I'm not misinforming, however, I might be guilty of shortcutting some answers here because said answer could go on for a very long time (you and I could assume some knowledge and talk shop tho'). Its taken me 20 years in the industry to collect this knowledge. I have worked for the Ashland corp (Valvoline) and BG Products so I have a unique insight on both sides (oil manufacturer and additive co) of the industry.
The contents of BG MOA (or others) is hardly a secret. There is a simple and well used test that the API or anyone else can use to tell EXACTLY whats in the additive package and in what ratio...you should know that.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=620 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=cataloghead vAlign=center colSpan=2 height=30>I'm sorry, but after visiting the BG web site (which by the way caused settings in my browser to be changed - much like spam and virus programs ), I simply get the impression of Snake Oil.

The following paragraphs are from the product section - the blue highlights are mine and will be discussed below:

BG MOA®</TD></TR><TR><TD class=catalogcontent vAlign=top colSpan=2>BG MOA® prevents oxidation and thickening of engine oil under even the most severe stop and-go, high temperature driving conditions. It fortifies all qualities of engine oil to provide superior long-lasting engine protection and helps maintain optimum engine performance. BG MOA® keeps piston ring belts, hydraulic lifters and other engine components clean to help extend engine life and reduce costs of operation. It is compatible with both synthetic and petroleum-base oils.

The Thin Film Oxidation Uptake Test (TFOUT), ASTM Test Method D4742, proves BG MOA’s remarkable resistance to oxidation by more than 200% longer than six major brands of SL quality oil. At the conclusion of the API Sequence IIIF Engine Test‚ a major brand, high-quality reference oil barely passed the 80-hour test with a viscosity increase of 255 percent. At 80 hours, another brand of oil fortified with BG MOA® had a viscosity increase of only 57 percent. At the conclusion of the triple-length, 240-hour test, it was still well within the viscosity limits with an increase of only 198 percent.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=620 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=cataloghead vAlign=center colSpan=2>Power Flush & Prime for Engine Oil Systems
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=catalogcontent colSpan=2>The BG PF12 Power Flush & Prime for Engine Oil Systems injects a safe, effective cleaner into the oil system. The engine is run for 15–30 minutes during the procedure. Sludge and deposits which are the result of thermal breakdown of the engine oil by the high temperatures of heavy stop-and-go driving, are removed from the cleaning solution as it is pumped through the BG PF12 filtration system. This ensures that there will be no plugging of the engine oil system. As the piston rings are cleaned, engine compression improves, which increases power and improves fuel economy. When the cleaning process is completed, the cleaning solution and any residual oil are air-blown from the engine. Then engine oil and BG MOA®, a superb lubricant and highly effective deposit control conditioner, are injected back into these air-blown areas to ensure instant lubrication at start-up. A new oil filter and the balance of the engine’s capacity of oil are then installed.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


There is no mention on the site (at least the part that I was able to view - beside messing up my browser, it hung things when loading pages) of any certification or API certification. On the additive section, they quote the quality of one oil as a reference test. Then they quote how much better a different oil is using the BG MOA product. A valid test would be to quote the performance of the same oil with and without the additive. But snake oil companies tend to use these bait and switch tactics. In any case, it is pretty much irrelevant. When test after test demonstrates that a quality oil - Mobil 1 for instance - can easily last 20,000 miles without any ill effects to the oil (or engine), and the maintenance requirements of our engine is no more than 7,500 miles (most are getting changed at much less than that), a product that claims to improve the oil is simply not needed.

For the flushing system, it indicates that the engine is run for 15-30 minutes to flush the system. That is not sufficient time to completely warm up the engine or the oil without load. At those times, the oil will not be completely warmed up, and the oil thermostat will most likely not open up, so the coolers will not be flushed anyway.

The cleaning product will be "air blown" from the engine. Again, there is no guarantee that the oil cooler and lines will be flushed. Additionally, blowing air through the engine will not get all the flush out. Air blown into the oil passages will move the oil along until it gets to an opening. Once the air gets to a bearing and starts venting, the oil system will no longer be pressurized - no more flush will be driven out of the engine's passages. Injecting the snake oil into the engine will also not get to all passages in the engine, and there will be left air pockets, and pockets of flushing fluid left in the passages.

Although the oil system is a "sealed, pressurized" system, it depends on the viscosity of the oil to function properly. Oil is pumped into the engine passages, and flows through the passages to the bearings. The bearings are filled with oil, and the viscosity of the oil controls the movement of the fluid out of the bearings (and back into the crankcase). Remove the oil viscosity and the air will vent through the first bearing it reaches and that will be about it - the viscosity of air is nil compared to even the thinest oil.

Sorry, after reading the marketing hype on the web site, I'm even less impressed. It reminds me of all the other snake oil marketing. The additive will not be used in my car, and the flushing process will not be used either. It ain't going to happen.




Tim Mullen --- There is no such thing as Touring suspension or Touring wheels.

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Chantilly, VA http://members.cox.net/elans4/
05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
94 Miata R Package - Black
72 Lotus Elan Sprint - Colorado Orange/Cirrus White
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post #98 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 07:30 PM
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Well we all learned a new word at least, Tribeologists.

'05 Elise, Nightfall/Touring (1TON 1G)
'94 BMW 325iS
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post #99 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-08-2006, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=620 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=cataloghead vAlign=center colSpan=2 height=30>I'm sorry, but after visiting the BG web site (which by the way caused settings in my browser to be changed - much like spam and virus programs ), I simply get the impression of Snake Oil.

The following paragraphs are from the product section - the blue highlights are mine and will be discussed below:

BG MOA®</TD></TR><TR><TD class=catalogcontent vAlign=top colSpan=2>BG MOA® prevents oxidation and thickening of engine oil under even the most severe stop and-go, high temperature driving conditions. It fortifies all qualities of engine oil to provide superior long-lasting engine protection and helps maintain optimum engine performance. BG MOA® keeps piston ring belts, hydraulic lifters and other engine components clean to help extend engine life and reduce costs of operation. It is compatible with both synthetic and petroleum-base oils.

The Thin Film Oxidation Uptake Test (TFOUT), ASTM Test Method D4742, proves BG MOA’s remarkable resistance to oxidation by more than 200% longer than six major brands of SL quality oil. At the conclusion of the API Sequence IIIF Engine Test‚ a major brand, high-quality reference oil barely passed the 80-hour test with a viscosity increase of 255 percent. At 80 hours, another brand of oil fortified with BG MOA® had a viscosity increase of only 57 percent. At the conclusion of the triple-length, 240-hour test, it was still well within the viscosity limits with an increase of only 198 percent.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=620 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=cataloghead vAlign=center colSpan=2>Power Flush & Prime for Engine Oil Systems
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=catalogcontent colSpan=2>The BG PF12 Power Flush & Prime for Engine Oil Systems injects a safe, effective cleaner into the oil system. The engine is run for 15–30 minutes during the procedure. Sludge and deposits which are the result of thermal breakdown of the engine oil by the high temperatures of heavy stop-and-go driving, are removed from the cleaning solution as it is pumped through the BG PF12 filtration system. This ensures that there will be no plugging of the engine oil system. As the piston rings are cleaned, engine compression improves, which increases power and improves fuel economy. When the cleaning process is completed, the cleaning solution and any residual oil are air-blown from the engine. Then engine oil and BG MOA®, a superb lubricant and highly effective deposit control conditioner, are injected back into these air-blown areas to ensure instant lubrication at start-up. A new oil filter and the balance of the engine’s capacity of oil are then installed.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


There is no mention on the site (at least the part that I was able to view - beside messing up my browser, it hung things when loading pages) of any certification or API certification. On the additive section, they quote the quality of one oil as a reference test. Then they quote how much better a different oil is using the BG MOA product. A valid test would be to quote the performance of the same oil with and without the additive. But snake oil companies tend to use these bait and switch tactics. In any case, it is pretty much irrelevant. When test after test demonstrates that a quality oil - Mobil 1 for instance - can easily last 20,000 miles without any ill effects to the oil (or engine), and the maintenance requirements of our engine is no more than 7,500 miles (most are getting changed at much less than that), a product that claims to improve the oil is simply not needed.

For the flushing system, it indicates that the engine is run for 15-30 minutes to flush the system. That is not sufficient time to completely warm up the engine or the oil without load. At those times, the oil will not be completely warmed up, and the oil thermostat will most likely not open up, so the coolers will not be flushed anyway.

The cleaning product will be "air blown" from the engine. Again, there is no guarantee that the oil cooler and lines will be flushed. Additionally, blowing air through the engine will not get all the flush out. Air blown into the oil passages will move the oil along until it gets to an opening. Once the air gets to a bearing and starts venting, the oil system will no longer be pressurized - no more flush will be driven out of the engine's passages. Injecting the snake oil into the engine will also not get to all passages in the engine, and there will be left air pockets, and pockets of flushing fluid left in the passages.

Although the oil system is a "sealed, pressurized" system, it depends on the viscosity of the oil to function properly. Oil is pumped into the engine passages, and flows through the passages to the bearings. The bearings are filled with oil, and the viscosity of the oil controls the movement of the fluid out of the bearings (and back into the crankcase). Remove the oil viscosity and the air will vent through the first bearing it reaches and that will be about it - the viscosity of air is nil compared to even the thinest oil.

Sorry, after reading the marketing hype on the web site, I'm even less impressed. It reminds me of all the other snake oil marketing. The additive will not be used in my car, and the flushing process will not be used either. It ain't going to happen.
Tim, the browser thing is on your end I have 3 computers at home and not one has every done anything weird and access this site daily with customer and potential customer computers.....quit going to porn sites is my answer to that.
When you look at the API sequence test youll see why 197% viscosity increase is actually great by comparison. Again, your making judgements on numbers that you don't know the meaning of. I understand your skeptisism cause I dont personally believe in System Analysts either.
Do me a favor start your elise and let it idle for 15-20 min, mine said 197 deg when I did it just now and the highest temp I have ever seen on my car was 216 deg. 197 could considered operating temp since my runs around 200 all of the time. Now your just ramdomly sayin stuff to win...it wont work with me on this subject.
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06 Lotus Sport Elise #15/50
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post #100 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
Tim, the browser thing is on your end I have 3 computers at home and not one has every done anything weird and access this site daily with customer and potential customer computers.....quit going to porn sites is my answer to that.
Nothing wrong with my computer, and I don't visit sites that I'm not supposed to go to. One problem with the site is that it changed my text size from "Medium" to "Smaller" - the site should specify it's font size as necessary, not change a user's browser settings. Of course, if you have this set on your browser, you won't notice the change. It should have been tested for various common browsers and settings.

Quote:
Do me a favor start your Elise and let it idle for 15-20 min, mine said 197 deg when I did it just now and the highest temp I have ever seen on my car was 216 deg. 197 could considered operating temp since my runs around 200 all of the time.
So, if you let your engine run for 15-20 min, the coolant temperature in the engine warms up to the minimum operating temperature. Did the thermostat open up all the way? Part way? What is the temperature of all the coolant. Has the entire engine warmed up to that temperature? And most importantly for this discussion, what was the oil temperature? Did the oil thermostat open all the way? How do you know? Remember that the engine, when used in a Toyota doesn't even use the cooler, so how is idling the engine going to put enough load on things to get that oil hot enough to open the oil thermostat all the way to get the oil flowing.

You also ignored the rest of my point. The fact that BA MOA "improves" the viscosity of regular oil is not necessarily a good thing, and has little relevance to it's use with synthetic oils. I notice that it doesn't do that much for the good "regular" oils either. It's Snake Oil marketing to quote the poor performance of one (cheap) brand of oil, and quote the "superior" numbers when used with another oil.

Quote:
Now your just randomly saying stuff to win...it wont work with me on this subject.
Nope. I'm just showing healthy skepticism to the same Snake Oil marketing claims that have been made and disproved for various products for many, many years.

It still goes back to the fact that if the major quality brands of oil could be improved, the manufacturers would do it. Every thing is a compromise. I'm sure that BA MOA does improve some property of an oil, but at what cost to other properties of that oil?




Tim Mullen --- There is no such thing as Touring suspension or Touring wheels.

I love being married. It's so great to find that one person that you want to annoy for the rest of your life. - Rita Rudner


Chantilly, VA http://members.cox.net/elans4/
05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
94 Miata R Package - Black
72 Lotus Elan Sprint - Colorado Orange/Cirrus White
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