What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise? - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
View Poll Results: What's the Best Synthetic Oil for Elise?
MOTUL 8100 X-cess 5W-40 21 5.53%
MOTUL 300 V Power 5W-40 23 6.05%
Red Line 'Street' 5W-40 29 7.63%
AMSOIL 'European Car Formula' 5W-40 40 10.53%
Mobil 1 ‘European Car Formula’ 0W-40 71 18.68%
Mobil 1 ‘Turbo Diesel Truck’ 5W-40 49 12.89%
Mobil Delvac 1 ‘Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil’ 5W-40 11 2.89%
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 or 5W-50 54 14.21%
Havoline Synthetic 5W-40 (It's avail. in your area) 32 8.42%
OTHER… 50 13.16%
Voters: 380. You may not vote on this poll

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post #101 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 10:15 AM
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Tim

Everytime I see a dead squirrel I take its entrails and add it to my oil. Seems like it only last 500 miles but I swear I get a boost in horsepower. This was confirmed by my grandmother who has raced cars around since she was 16.

I am running out of squirrels and thinking about raising them for my oil additive.

I tried contacting Mobile about this but they keep hanging up the phone on me.

Do you know anywhere I can get a discount on oil filters? Seems like I need to change it every 500 miles.

OK this is only for a laugh - LOL.

have fun

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post #102 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 07:02 PM
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>--
BG MOA
>--

Everytime I see this I read it as BIG MOA.
I keep getting this vision of a really big Hawaiian guy
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post #103 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick

I tried contacting Mobile about this but they keep hanging up the phone on me.
Maybe it's because you are calling the WRONG number! Might help if you spelled "Mobil" correctly.

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post #104 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-09-2006, 10:54 PM
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I'm sorry that the website changed your font from medium to small, this must be very frustrating, as a professional Systems Analyst, when people don't know as much as you do about your profession and still create a website without all of the knowledge needed to do it properly. You stated that there was an easy fix for this problem and I assume from this statement that if the person that made this mistake would educate themselves that they could do their job more professionally. I'm sure you understand the hidden analogy here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
You also ignored the rest of my point. The fact that BA MOA "improves" the viscosity of regular oil is not necessarily a good thing, and has little relevance to it's use with synthetic oils. I notice that it doesn't do that much for the good "regular" oils either. It's Snake Oil marketing to quote the poor performance of one (cheap) brand of oil, and quote the "superior" numbers when used with another oil.
*** "The fact that BG MOA "improves" the viscosity of regular oil is not necessarilly a good thing".
Totally incorrect statement and a lehmans understanding of the word improved as it relates to the viscosity of oil. They mean Viscosity Index Improvers, but don't believe me:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/08/9710007.ana.htm

***3rd paragraph CLEARLY states that Viscosity Index Improvers are good and needed, just the opposite of your statement!!

***also: "and has little relevence to its use with synthetic oils."
Again just the opposite from the truth. Synthetic oils have a higher inherent viscosity index so they have MORE of a need for V.I.I.'s than do dinosaur oils. But don't belive me, read what Mobil/Exxon says:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub..._Pegasus_1.asp

***2nd paragraph re-states what I just wrote.
Again, the opposite of what you said.
Now giving you the benefit of the doubt, you might have been referring to the TFOUT test that shows only dinosaur oils. It's all I had at the time and with your new found knowledge of synthetic oils needing V.I.I.'s MORE than dinosaur oils, I assumed you could put 2 and 2 together and understand that it is equally beneficial for an oil that needs more V.I.I.'s. My assumtion was incorrect.

*** I noticed that it didnt do much for the good "regular" oils either."
The best dinosaur oil tested was Mobil which lasted 386 min on its own. By adding BG MOA to the Mobil oil, it increased the length in minutes to 516. A difference of 130 mins. Which, as you can see form the TFOUT test was almost the length Castrol GTX lasted for the ENTIRE test at 163 mins. To a lehman it didn't do much, but to a professional in the industry that is a VERY competent improvement.
As to the, now known typo, on the website comapring different oils. It was a typo for some out sourced computer geek that made a mistake.


Nope. I'm just showing healthy skepticism to the same Snake Oil marketing claims that have been made and disproved for various products for many, many years.

*** The computer use to be the size of a room and took punch cards to transfer data, then we spoke Cobal and Fortran, then we spoke DOS and now windows. Your industry has improved by leaps and bounds, it would be pretty arrogant to think that my industry hasn't done the same...wouldn't you agree?
Obviously not cause you keep refering to our products as "Snake Oil" and other oil manufacturers as "quality" oils infering that ours is not.

***Just so you know I am taking personal offense to the "Snake oil" monniker, for me, the man who holds a double doctorate who invented our products, the doctorates of chemical engineering whom keep improving our chemistry and the lubrication engineers that make sure our oils work in real world vehicle and fleet testing, the API and for our industry in general.

*** Do you hold a degree in chemical or lubrication engineering? Have you ever been employed as a Tribologist? Somehow I think not. So as a Systems Analyst, please quit using punch cards to transfer data towards modern Tribology and try to update your knowlegde base to the Windows version of Tribology.

***I hope that anyone reading this thread can decifer between professional knowledge and opinion.

Mark Darby
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post #105 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-10-2006, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARBY#33
The computer use to be the size of a room and took punch cards to transfer data, then we spoke Cobal and Fortran, then we spoke DOS and now windows. Your industry has improved by leaps and bounds, it would be pretty arrogant to think that my industry hasn't done the same...wouldn't you agree?
Yep, I'd agree.

Just like the various manufacturers of computer equipment, if there is a break through in technology, it tends to be incorporated into all manufacturers products, I would expect all oil manufacturers to incorporate new technology.

If BG MOA is such an improvement and necessary to get optimal performance from the oil, why haven't all oil manufacturers incorporated that new technological break through into their products?

I'm sorry that you take personal offense, none was intended. But I just don't buy your products claims. There is seldom a great improvement in technology that is not quickly copied by everyone else - unless there are down sides to that technology that may out weigh that improvement.




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post #106 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-20-2006, 07:01 PM
 
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Shell Rotella T

Shell Rotella T is a full synthetic, specs are very close to Mobil 1 and Havoline synthetic (better in some categories) and costs about half what Mobil 1 costs at my local WalMart. And Mobil 1 is no longer stocked in 5W-40 at WalMart, but Rotella is, at less than $16/5 gal. jug. I'd say it's a no-brainer.
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post #107 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-20-2006, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Less Moore
Shell Rotella T is a full synthetic, specs are very close to Mobil 1 and Havoline synthetic (better in some categories) and costs about half what Mobil 1 costs at my local WalMart. And Mobil 1 is no longer stocked in 5W-40 at WalMart, but Rotella is, at less than $16/5 gal. jug. I'd say it's a no-brainer.
I'll have to check, but from what I understand, the Rotella is not a group IV or V synth and either is Havoline.
There is some political hanky panky going on.

Here is a quote from the Multistrada site from a lubrication engineer:
>-----
As previously explained (so well, thank you), the 5W has little bearing on the actual operational viscosity of the oil. The number we are looking for is the XXW40.. This defines the oil viscosity at opeational temperatures and that it is optimum for our engines.
The problem with some "synthetic" oils, (Shell RotellaT full Synthetic, as example), is that they are group III MINERAL based oils with a "synthetic name" only. A Group III mineral based oil does not have the viscosity stability of a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil especially at the temperature extremes. Thus a 5W-40 oil may contain a goodly amount of VI improver to achieve rating. VI improvers are plastic coil springs (molecular level) which as your mind envisions can be sheared, smashed and wear out... They are a form of plastic! The most important, critical, critical aspect of an engine & transmission lubricant is viscosity. The ability of an oil to retain its proper viscosity or film thickness in adverse conditions. A full, true synthetic will do just that in that VI improvers are generally not needed to achieve a broad operational temperature spectrum. Thus no shear or temporary VI shock to affect oil film thickness..
The one simple way to determine if an oil is truly a synthetic is to examine its product data sheet. If you note that its ccld pour point is at -10 to -40 F, it is most likely a group III mineral based oil. If the pour point is in the -50 to -60F range, it is a true synthetic Group IV or Group V oil.
HOWEVER, in some cases manufacturers are on to us and have eliminated the "Pour Point" from their PDS of their Group III oils and one has to go to the MSDS to obtain its "Freezing Point". In the case of Castrol R4 Superbike Full Synthetic 4 stroke motor oil, the freezing point is indicated as -22F to -40F on the MSDS..... Hmmmmm....... The published Product Data Sheet pour point for Mobil 1 MX4T is -65F. This is NOT the freezing point but the temperature at which the oil still flows freely......

Courtesy a judge who knew nothing about lubricants, Shell and other oil manufacturers all now magically have "full synthetic" oils; legal as can be, however, are in fact mineral based oils.... However, in Castrol's case, they DO produce true Group IV and V synthetics in Europe and many of those products are imported; some Castrol oils may be a true synthetic and an excellent oil. Get on line and check the PDS for a given oil (except in this case) or MSDS. The answer to the "is it a real synthetic or not" question should be in the published numbers...
Let the discussion begin..........
>----------------

mark
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post #108 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-20-2006, 09:51 PM
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Damn shame, no truth in advertising anywhere. It's like the stuff they call organically grown food.

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post #109 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 12:05 AM
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OK, so after all of this - where can you actually buy Castrol or Mobil 1 European Formula 0-40w synth oil?

I can't find it anywhere locally and I'm in L.A.

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post #110 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 05:03 AM
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For those who can't find 5W40 Mobile 1 locally, you can order online here. Shipping is very reasonable (~$7 for 6 qts).
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post #111 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheRed
OK, so after all of this - where can you actually buy Castrol or Mobil 1 European Formula 0-40w synth oil?

I can't find it anywhere locally and I'm in L.A.

Walmart has 0w-40 in quarts.
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post #112 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus54
I'll have to check, but from what I understand, the Rotella is not a group IV or V synth and either is Havoline.
There is some political hanky panky going on.

Here is a quote from the Multistrada site from a lubrication engineer:
>-----
As previously explained (so well, thank you), the 5W has little bearing on the actual operational viscosity of the oil. The number we are looking for is the XXW40.. This defines the oil viscosity at opeational temperatures and that it is optimum for our engines.
The problem with some "synthetic" oils, (Shell RotellaT full Synthetic, as example), is that they are group III MINERAL based oils with a "synthetic name" only. A Group III mineral based oil does not have the viscosity stability of a true Group IV or Group V synthetic oil especially at the temperature extremes. Thus a 5W-40 oil may contain a goodly amount of VI improver to achieve rating. VI improvers are plastic coil springs (molecular level) which as your mind envisions can be sheared, smashed and wear out... They are a form of plastic! The most important, critical, critical aspect of an engine & transmission lubricant is viscosity. The ability of an oil to retain its proper viscosity or film thickness in adverse conditions. A full, true synthetic will do just that in that VI improvers are generally not needed to achieve a broad operational temperature spectrum. Thus no shear or temporary VI shock to affect oil film thickness..
The one simple way to determine if an oil is truly a synthetic is to examine its product data sheet. If you note that its ccld pour point is at -10 to -40 F, it is most likely a group III mineral based oil. If the pour point is in the -50 to -60F range, it is a true synthetic Group IV or Group V oil.
HOWEVER, in some cases manufacturers are on to us and have eliminated the "Pour Point" from their PDS of their Group III oils and one has to go to the MSDS to obtain its "Freezing Point". In the case of Castrol R4 Superbike Full Synthetic 4 stroke motor oil, the freezing point is indicated as -22F to -40F on the MSDS..... Hmmmmm....... The published Product Data Sheet pour point for Mobil 1 MX4T is -65F. This is NOT the freezing point but the temperature at which the oil still flows freely......

Courtesy a judge who knew nothing about lubricants, Shell and other oil manufacturers all now magically have "full synthetic" oils; legal as can be, however, are in fact mineral based oils.... However, in Castrol's case, they DO produce true Group IV and V synthetics in Europe and many of those products are imported; some Castrol oils may be a true synthetic and an excellent oil. Get on line and check the PDS for a given oil (except in this case) or MSDS. The answer to the "is it a real synthetic or not" question should be in the published numbers...
Let the discussion begin..........
>----------------

mark

This is an accurate, well researched and informative post. GREAT job!
BTW, I am still researching, but the leader to this point is Royal Purple!

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post #113 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 03:58 PM
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What's up with the SuperSyn variant of Mobil 1? Looks to be the same price as normal Mobil 1. Anyone tried it? Snake oil??

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post #114 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudboy
What's up with the SuperSyn variant of Mobil 1? Looks to be the same price as normal Mobil 1. Anyone tried it? Snake oil??
I think it is Mobil 1 - they just changed the labeling. Probably to distinguish it from their non-synthetic oils that they now put in the silver bottles and made look like Mobil 1...




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post #115 of 176 (permalink) Old 10-22-2006, 06:30 AM
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Another quote talking about Shell Rotella:
>--------

A bit of information directly from a shell engineer. Note that at the end he states that the base stock in Rotella T 5w-40 synthetic (available at walmart for $14 a gallon) ,Shell Helix(Ferrari dealer $16 a quart), and Ferrari's formula 1 oil cocktail is the exact same thing minus different additives.

"It is true that ROTELLA T Synthetic is Group III (not PAO) based, but you must keep in mind that not all Group III base oils are created equal. ROTELLA T Synthetic is made with Shell's XHVI base oil, which unlike other Group IIIs does not begin as distilled crude oil, hence of all Group III base oils, XHVI is truly the only one that can legitimately be called "synthetic." XHVI is a wax isomerate, meaning that it is made from the slack wax removed from distilled crude in normal solvent dewaxing. This slack wax is catalytically transformed (isomerized) and hydrofinished into a chemically pure base oil which rivals PAO in virtually every category. There are other "synthetic" oils out there based on Group III, but Shell's is unique in that it uses XHVI base oil. Chevron and Petro-Canada produce Group III base oils that come close to XHVI, but even though these oils are all hydroprocessed and utilize the same type of isomerization technology employed in the making of XHVI, they are not the same thing. Only XHVI is made from pure petroleum slack wax and its CAS number is 92026-09-4. The CAS number for the more typical all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils is 64742-54-7. If you want to know what your "synthetic" oil is made from, take a look at the MSDS and look for these numbers. (The CAS number for PAO is 68037-01-4).

In brief, don't be so quick to dismiss Rotella T Synthetic as just another "synthetic pretender." It's made with the same base oil as Shell's Helix Ultra, and everytime you see Ferrari win a Formula 1 race, that's the oil in the engine"
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post #116 of 176 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
I think it is Mobil 1 - they just changed the labeling. Probably to distinguish it from their non-synthetic oils that they now put in the silver bottles and made look like Mobil 1...
I have used Mobil 1 for all my cars (H22A honda prelude and my current integra). From search, it looks like most people are using Motul Synthetic. Is Mobil 1 synthetic 5W40 good enough (I believe there is only one variant of Mobil 1 synthetic, right?)
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post #117 of 176 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gameson
Is Mobil 1 synthetic 5W40 good enough (I believe there is only one variant of Mobil 1 synthetic, right?)
That's the problem... Mobil 1 had an automotive oil in 5W40 that they called "Truck and SUV" oil. It was regular Mobil 1 in the proper viscosity. They discontinued that product and replaced it with a Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel oil that is targeted for diesels and contains additives specific to diesels. Is appropriate for automotive use? It has the proper ratings, but it's unknown if it's optimal for gasoline use as opposed to diesel use.




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post #118 of 176 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
That's the problem... Mobil 1 had an automotive oil in 5W40 that they called "Truck and SUV" oil. It was regular Mobil 1 in the proper viscosity. They discontinued that product and replaced it with a Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel oil that is targeted for diesels and contains additives specific to diesels. Is appropriate for automotive use? It has the proper ratings, but it's unknown if it's optimal for gasoline use as opposed to diesel use.

According to a Lubrication engineer I know, the new 'Turbo Diesel' oil is also rated for automotive use, and is just fine in the Elise.
I asked him about the Elise specifically.

He has a Ducati like mine, and recommends the motorcycle specific oil for those- mostly becuase of the proper viscocity and transmission sharing the oil (it has a dry clutch).

Mark
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post #119 of 176 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus54
the new 'Turbo Diesel' oil is also rated for automotive use, and is just fine in the Elise.
That's the problem. "Rated for" and "just fine" is not necessarily optimum. It could be that another brand of 5W40 gasoline engine oil would be more optimum. It could be that Mobil 1 0W40 gasoline engine oil would be more optimum than the proper viscosity rated 5W40 diesel engine oil would be.

The diesel oil has additional additives to handle the effects of diesel - those additives might not be harmful to a gasoline engine, but it could be that it's presence lowers the additives that would be more beneficial for the gasoline oil's needs. I don't know. I not sure that anyone knows. I would like to see some official, qualitative information/testing on the subject, not just "according to a lubrication engineer" (I'm sure that other lubrication engineers could have a different opinion).

No one knows ...




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post #120 of 176 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 06:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen
That's the problem. "Rated for" and "just fine" is not necessarily optimum. It could be that another brand of 5W40 gasoline engine oil would be more optimum. It could be that Mobil 1 0W40 gasoline engine oil would be more optimum than the proper viscosity rated 5W40 diesel engine oil would be.

The diesel oil has additional additives to handle the effects of diesel - those additives might not be harmful to a gasoline engine, but it could be that it's presence lowers the additives that would be more beneficial for the gasoline oil's needs. I don't know. I not sure that anyone knows. I would like to see some official, qualitative information/testing on the subject, not just "according to a lubrication engineer" (I'm sure that other lubrication engineers could have a different opinion).

No one knows ...
well a lot of people sure know how to make speculations!!!!
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