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post #81 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 07:58 AM
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Jack,

nice to hear but why doesn't lotus advertise the increase in wheel hp? still people lets get these puppies to 300 hp form the factory!!!! you know in a few years it will be the case
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post #82 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 11:31 AM
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I think the exige S needed more than 220hp anyway.. these numbers are all just too small folks.. for a car that hits 70k it better be hitting 300hp and the sooner lotus gets to this number the better..

Why does it need more? If you shift enough, the car is pretty much as quick as anything.


And I dunno about you, but I like shifting



Gearing and weight can make as much an impact as HP.

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post #83 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 12:07 PM
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Why does it need more? If you shift enough, the car is pretty much as quick as anything.


And I dunno about you, but I like shifting



Gearing and weight can make as much an impact as HP.
I agree. Had a blast yesterday on the German autobahn. I only got beaten by a new Beemer M5. Apparently that car is limited to 250 kmh. The M5 pulled about 10 car lenghts then we kept at a steady distance doing 250 kmh both.

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post #84 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist View Post
Why does it need more? If you shift enough, the car is pretty much as quick as anything.


And I dunno about you, but I like shifting



Gearing and weight can make as much an impact as HP.
Very wise young grasshopper.
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post #85 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 03:50 PM
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Why does it need more? If you shift enough, the car is pretty much as quick as anything.


And I dunno about you, but I like shifting



Gearing and weight can make as much an impact as HP.
I don't really agree that it's as fast as anything.. perhaps it's fast enough for you.. but the speed of the exige S is deceptive.. it's really not as fast as even a C6.. it just isn't that powerful.. which is fine.. It's more noticeable at highway speeds though.. like cruise at 80 then floor it.. it's anemic at best..

However this is not what this car is designed to do..

At the track though 240hp would help more in the straights so you don't fall too much behind..

when the 240 Exige comes out and the 220 elise things will start to be heading to where I might return to eliseland again..

I actually drove by the dealership where I purchased my elise today.. I gotta say just beautiful cars.. sexiest cars I have seen in a LONG time..
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post #86 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist View Post
Why does it need more? If you shift enough, the car is pretty much as quick as anything.


And I dunno about you, but I like shifting



Gearing and weight can make as much an impact as HP.
Me three. You are one of the youngest owners on here and you get IT!!!

Why the hell does a 2000 lb car need 300 hp???? It needs bigger numbers; for $70K it needs to be around 300 hp. Why, why, why???? If it were any other car on the planet that weighs closer to 3000 lbs plus, then I would agree. But for our cars, even 190 hp is a lot and is capable of launching the car to 60 in under 5.0 seconds. The only people who they need to produce the bigger hp numbers for, are those who do not understand power to weight ratios.

Lotus should be able to get some kind of exemption to allow them to advertise the Elise and Exige hp numbers at values that would more accurately describe their performance abilities based on the norm.

So here you go: We are going to use a standard Porsche 997 as the sports car norm for weight. The 997 weighs around 3200 lbs, and this is not a bad median sports car weight. We all know the rest of the pigs range from about 2800 lbs (S2000) to around 3600 lbs for a new M3 or 997 turbo. And yes I know they get heavier than 3600 lbs and lighter than 2800 lbs, but for today's "sports" cars, 3200 lbs is not a bad average to use.

Now we will take the power to weight ratio of an Elise: about 10.4 lbs per hp, and the power to weight of the new '08 240 Exige S: about 8.6 lbs per hp.

Now we divide these two values into the Porsche weight of 3200 lbs and we come out with the true hp of the '08 NA Lotus Elise and 240 Exige S:

308 hp for the Elise and 372 hp for the Exige.

Now take into account that if you are a little patient and wise, that you can buy these cars at heavy discounts even when they are brand new (now we even have an additional owner loyalty discount). And you can really get some screaming deals on some nice, well cared for, used ones too.

Add to that the best handling in the world, and you have yourself quite the bargain HIGH horsepower car.

In the mean time, I am going to enjoy my '07 340 hp Exige S.

Stephen

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #87 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 04:18 PM
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post #88 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 05:31 PM
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Totally agree on the HP issue and that our cars do not need mammoth HP to be class leading but should we not also factor in the relevant drag factors. I'm not expert but if memory serves me well our cars do not have the best drag coefficient out there.

If I'm wrong great, and welcome any comments
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post #89 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 05:35 PM
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Why didn't I get a coupon (or two?) grrrr

Robert??

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post #90 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Why the hell does a 2000 lb car need 300 hp????
why don't you tell us, didn't you buy one ?

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post #91 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 06:04 PM
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Pennsylvania has a check every year.
i could spend (maybe) the price of a SC but can't justify a new car.
the SC will add torque at most rpm so you have more area under the curve. if i'm wrong, tell me.
i really don't want to sweat the test every year.
what kit will retrofit a 2006 MY elise?
i need a turnkey job (not turkey).
i'm not looking for max hp, just better torque.
suggestions?
(remember, i'm married....)

'06 ELISE now with hidden talent and dual cigarette lighter sockets!
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post #92 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Me three. You are one of the youngest owners on here and you get IT!!!

Why the hell does a 2000 lb car need 300 hp???? It needs bigger numbers; for $70K it needs to be around 300 hp. Why, why, why???? If it were any other car on the planet that weighs closer to 3000 lbs plus, then I would agree. But for our cars, even 190 hp is a lot and is capable of launching the car to 60 in under 5.0 seconds. The only people who they need to produce the bigger hp numbers for, are those who do not understand power to weight ratios.

Lotus should be able to get some kind of exemption to allow them to advertise the Elise and Exige hp numbers at values that would more accurately describe their performance abilities based on the norm.

So here you go: We are going to use a standard Porsche 997 as the sports car norm for weight. The 997 weighs around 3200 lbs, and this is not a bad median sports car weight. We all know the rest of the pigs range from about 2800 lbs (S2000) to around 3600 lbs for a new M3 or 997 turbo. And yes I know they get heavier than 3600 lbs and lighter than 2800 lbs, but for today's "sports" cars, 3200 lbs is not a bad average to use.

Now we will take the power to weight ratio of an Elise: about 10.4 lbs per hp, and the power to weight of the new '08 240 Exige S: about 8.6 lbs per hp.

Now we divide these two values into the Porsche weight of 3200 lbs and we come out with the true hp of the '08 NA Lotus Elise and 240 Exige S:

308 hp for the Elise and 372 hp for the Exige.

Now take into account that if you are a little patient and wise, that you can buy these cars at heavy discounts even when they are brand new (now we even have an additional owner loyalty discount). And you can really get some screaming deals on some nice, well cared for, used ones too.

Add to that the best handling in the world, and you have yourself quite the bargain HIGH horsepower car.

In the mean time, I am going to enjoy my '07 340 hp Exige S.

Stephen


Bravo! I wouldn't add or detract anything from that...


--------




It gets me every time I think about it...that I know this car can perform as well as any road car in the world, because I know that I am only limited by my own abilities. My car won't hold me back.



How many people get to say that about their car??

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post #93 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-15-2007, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ajp33 View Post
Totally agree on the HP issue and that our cars do not need mammoth HP to be class leading but should we not also factor in the relevant drag factors. I'm not expert but if memory serves me well our cars do not have the best drag coefficient out there.

If I'm wrong great, and welcome any comments

It's been said that because our cars are so small, the total area of the car that's being affected by drag is much less than other cars, thereby making our drag acceptable, if not good. Exiges might be a slight exception.


Top speed is low moreso because of the torque deficit than because of drag (except on the Exige)

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post #94 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 08:31 AM
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why don't you tell us, didn't you buy one ?
I knew someone would bring that up, and for your information, it was 304 hp at the wheels, or about 350 hp at the crank.

The answer is: Because I can!

But the car certainly does not need it. Just once I wanted a car that is ridiculusly fast, a supercar if you will. At least a supercar to me, and one that I could afford. It was worth every penny for the end result.

Now I am driving a 220 hp Exige S and I love it! It does NOT need more power, but that does not mean that I won't do an upgrade to it in the future if I decide to keep it. Chances are good that if I keep it that I will do the Gotham or Forcedfed upgrade. It is fun to upgrade these cars, and doing something like upgrading the power, adding a set of Ohlins, maybe a big brake kit and some new wheels and tires can give you the feeling of getting a new car all over again without actually having to buy a new car. Make sense?

Stephen

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #95 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 08:38 AM
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Why didn't I get a coupon (or two?) grrrr

Robert??
I don't have one either. I don't believe that they sent them out yet.

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #96 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ajp33 View Post
Totally agree on the HP issue and that our cars do not need mammoth HP to be class leading but should we not also factor in the relevant drag factors. I'm not expert but if memory serves me well our cars do not have the best drag coefficient out there.

If I'm wrong great, and welcome any comments
You are correct, and our cars do not have a good CD. Regardless of the cd of our cars, there is one fatal flaw with my horsepower calculations based on what our cars weigh. That flaw is when you begin to talk about top speed. In order for our cars to have the same top speeds as cars such as the Porsche 997, then we really would need to have those kind of HP numbers. As far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong physics guys), the weight of a car really does not affect its top speed. The weight will affect the amount of time it takes a car to get to its top speed (in other words the acceleration), but it will not affect the top speed. The only way that you are going to increase the speed of a car is by changing its aerodynamics, changing its frontal surface area, changing its gearing, and finally, changing its horsepower.

Lets say that my 2,000 lb 220 hp Exige S has a top speed of 150 mph, and a 0-60 mph time of 4.5 seconds. If I reduce the weight of my car to 1,500 lbs, and I change absolutely nothing else (other than maybe the spring rates and tire pressure, so that it has exactly the same stance as it did before), then I would expect my top speed to still be 150 mph, but my 0 to 60 mph time should drop significantly to something like 3.5 seconds.

I did not bring up top speed because we don't live in Germany, so who really cares. Our cars will do about 150 mph, that is plenty for the U.S. as far as I am concerned.



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Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist View Post
It's been said that because our cars are so small, the total area of the car that's being affected by drag is much less than other cars, thereby making our drag acceptable, if not good. Exiges might be a slight exception.


Top speed is low moreso because of the torque deficit than because of drag (except on the Exige)
Actually because of the hp deficit, which is calculated from torque; so you are right. But as I said above, our power to weight ratios allow us to have the performance of 300 hp + sports cars; but jut not the top speed. To achieve that, we would really need to up the hp.

Stephen

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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post #97 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 08:56 AM
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..Chances are good that if I keep it that I will do the Gotham or Forcedfed upgrade. It is fun to upgrade these cars, and doing something like upgrading the power, adding a set of Ohlins, maybe a big brake kit and some new wheels and tires can give you the feeling of getting a new car all over again without actually having to buy a new car. Make sense?
Makes sense to me! EXACTLY what I'm doing.. plus, adding a cup roof. Then, when Lotus releases the Exige S with 265 hp in 2009, I'll already be there!

07 Exige S 265: GG, Track Pack, V1, RV Camera, S111 CF roof and splitter, 4.5-lb Voltphreaks battery, 10-lb Von Hep Exhaust, Green filter, 265 crank hp +/-, Volk TE 37 Wheels, RTDbrace, Scroth 6-point ASM harnesses, Innovative Motor Mounts, Saiku Michi Catch Cans. To come: IC fans, headers, and sport cat. 1955 lbs total weight (est w/tank half full)
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post #98 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 09:47 AM
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I did not bring up top speed because we don't live in Germany, so who really cares. Our cars will do about 150 mph, that is plenty for the U.S. as far as I am concerned.

Stephen
I do (well almost, have to drive 500m to get there).

But I have to agree. 150 mph is more then plenty and one hardly ever gets there. Nor on the autobahn nor on the track. And besides this it's more fun to drive on the B-roads/twisties and the S (220 or 240) has plenty of grunt to do the trick there.

Nico

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post #99 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 10:11 AM
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I agree that the Elise/Exige are great the way they are. However, once one becomes accustomed to that experience, you might start asking the question, "What next?" Do you take further steps to reduce weight. Do you consider performance upgrades?

Whether you are content with the car the way it is or if you want something different from the car, that all seems good and natural.

From my perspective as a sportbiker, all cars feel rigid and slow.
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post #100 of 131 (permalink) Old 10-16-2007, 10:46 AM
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I agree that the Elise/Exige are great the way they are. However, once one becomes accustomed to that experience, you might start asking the question, "What next?" Do you take further steps to reduce weight. Do you consider performance upgrades?.
Agreed, that is why I mentioned that if I keep my S, I will look towards upgrading its power, just like I did with my Elise.

Although our cars may have enough power to compete with other cars in their class, that does not mean we do not want more performance. It is always fun to look towards the next performance mod and to upgrade the power even more.

2009 Mini Cooper JCW - Dark Silver/Black - sport suspension/cold weather package
2008 997 GT3 - Carrara White/Black - PCCB's - 350 lbs of weight reduction

Past Lotus Cars: 2005 NFB Elise, 2007 CO Exige S, 2005 AR Elise, 2008 CO Exige S 240
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