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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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Lotus Europa GS

Anyone knows this ( or such a ) car??

Worth to buy such one??
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 08:45 AM Thread Starter
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... a few more pics.

I saw this red one a few month ago on ebay.
Last week i got a offer on a similar car (a yellow one), located in germany.
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1962 Lotus Type 18/21, 1969 Lotus Type 61FF, 1977 Lotus Elite 504,
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 09:09 AM
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The GS Europa is a mid seventies body kit for the Europa so They could be updated to the burgeoning Wedge design a la Esprit and TR7. As far as I know it was a body only mod. I have a book that describes it but it is not readily available to me at this moment. There were very few made, this one appers to be in excellent shape. Whether it is worth buying is dependant on the buyer. As it is an in period mod I can tolerate it more than modern mods to classic Lotus. I guess one can look at the GS Europa similarly to a Shapecraft Elan, though the Shapecraft has a bit more history.


Having just bought a Europa I can attest to their fun factor.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/i...st-here-74328/

As I have stated before, it is eerie how our tastes and collections are similar.

Kyle Kaulback '56 Mark VI '71 Type61mX '71 Type69 FF '71 Type 69 F2 '77 Super 907 '91 M100 Elan '91 Omega LotusSport 110 '05 Elise(custodian) '13 Evora S

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 10:39 AM
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...that's a really bizarre fusion of a europa, a merak, and an S1 esprit...

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ...m... View Post
...that's a really bizarre fusion of a europa, a merak, and an S1 esprit...
With a little El Camino thrown in...
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by lotusforsale View Post
With a little El Camino thrown in...
...bah - anything an el camino might contribute the europa already has in spades...

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 12:15 PM
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Yep....looks like a Europa/Merak............NOPE....buy MINE instead !

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 04:16 PM
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The book from which I recalled the GS Europa is The LOTUS EUROPA derivatives & contemporaries 1966 - 1975 An Enthusiast's Guide & Pictorial Review by Paul Robinshaw and Dave Francis. The book is for the most part a compilation of information from previously published sources and listings of data rather than a prose "authored" book. I have it in my extensive Lotus library (I have almost everything) and it does have some easy to reference material due to its format, but it is not a particularly good book about Europas. There are, however, a sad lack of good published works on Europas so it is reasonable for someone who wishes to get references on Europas to acquire a copy. The section on the contemporary aftermarket is the only place I have seen mention so in that vein it is worth while. In addition to the GS Europa, it also covers Else Europa, Lotus Europa BRM, and Hermes Europa.


Here is a picture of the cover and photos (I can't get my scanner to work) of the pages covering GS Europa.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus69f2 View Post
The book from which I recalled the GS Europa is The LOTUS EUROPA derivatives & contemporaries 1966 - 1975 An Enthusiast's Guide & Pictorial Review by Paul Robinshaw and Dave Francis. Here is a picture of the cover and photos (I can't get my scanner to work) of the pages covering GS Europa.
...thanks for sharing!..

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-29-2009, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for coments and for sharing.
Yep, i think its really a bizarre car. But also a rare one.
The yellow car is not in a bad condition, but not as good the red seems to be.
Is that a real Lotus? Would you accept this as a Lotus?
Ok, its mentioned in a Lotus Book - but is it really a Lotus??

A other info is that only 15 cars were made under permission of Lotus Cars.


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1962 Lotus Type 18/21, 1969 Lotus Type 61FF, 1977 Lotus Elite 504,
1989 Lotus Excel SE, 1993 Lotus Type 110, 1996 Lotus Esprit V8,
1997 Lotus Esprit V8, 1998 Lotus Elise, 1999 Lotus Elise,
2015 Caterham S3
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by gospeedv8 View Post
Thanks for coments and for sharing.
Yep, i think its really a bizarre car. But also a rare one.
The yellow car is not in a bad condition, but not as good the red seems to be.
Is that a real Lotus? Would you accept this as a Lotus?
Ok, its mentioned in a Lotus Book - but is it really a Lotus??

A other info is that only 15 cars were made under permission of Lotus Cars.


gospeedv8
Your question as to whether this car is a Lotus brings up a really sticky and contraversial question. I will refrain from a dissertation and stick to the question at hand.

This car is essentially a rebodied Lotus Europa. The info delineated in the book above indicates the car could have been had with various options like the Cosworth BDA engine and different wheels. The car you posted pictures of appears to have retained the original interior. Clearly has the Lotus TC engine and still has the Brand Lotus wheels. I would consider this to be a Lotus Europa with custom coachbuilt bodywork in the tradition of the pre-war coachbuilders. To me, not as valuable as an original car, but worthy of having and preserving like any other Lotus by someone who has the interest. Others opinions may differ. From my standpoint the question of Lotusness depends on the degree of modification. Since this car appears to be only rebodied, it is a modified Lotus and falls into the category of custom coachwork. If it had the BDA, aftermarket wheels, and other mods I would consider it to be less of a Lotus and more of a customized special (or potentially a Hot Rod).

I would be interested to know if you buy the car and also to know what other than the body has been modified and whether the seller can provide any additional history or original literature on GS Cars.

Kyle Kaulback '56 Mark VI '71 Type61mX '71 Type69 FF '71 Type 69 F2 '77 Super 907 '91 M100 Elan '91 Omega LotusSport 110 '05 Elise(custodian) '13 Evora S

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotus69f2 View Post
Your question as to whether this car is a Lotus brings up a really sticky and contraversial question. I will refrain from a dissertation and stick to the question at hand.

This car is essentially a rebodied Lotus Europa. The info delineated in the book above indicates the car could have been had with various options like the Cosworth BDA engine and different wheels. The car you posted pictures of appears to have retained the original interior. Clearly has the Lotus TC engine and still has the Brand Lotus wheels. I would consider this to be a Lotus Europa with custom coachbuilt bodywork in the tradition of the pre-war coachbuilders. To me, not as valuable as an original car, but worthy of having and preserving like any other Lotus by someone who has the interest. Others opinions may differ. From my standpoint the question of Lotusness depends on the degree of modification. Since this car appears to be only rebodied, it is a modified Lotus and falls into the category of custom coachwork. If it had the BDA, aftermarket wheels, and other mods I would consider it to be less of a Lotus and more of a customized special (or potentially a Hot Rod).

I would be interested to know if you buy the car and also to know what other than the body has been modified and whether the seller can provide any additional history or original literature on GS Cars.

Kyle,

Thanks for sharing from your archives...you made a comment in another thread to another LTalker how eery it is that he and you have similar Lotus tastes and collections. I believe many of us, given the resources, would demonstrate similar collections!

Re whether or not this car is a true 'Lotus.' Kyle's thinking makes sense. Another way to look at it, though, is that coming out in 1975...carrying a Lotus badge and LOTUS lettering on the rear, and it being written up in books and magazines, Colin Chapman most certainly was aware of this car.

If he'd had a problem with its 'Lotusness,' rest assured legal action would've been taken to have the badging removed and cease and desist orders would've been sought so that it would not be marketed as a GS Lotus Europa.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 05:25 AM
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1975, Colin didn't care about the GS Lotus Europa. By that that time, he didn't care about the Europa period. He had moved on to other projects.

The Elan was done, the Seven was given to Caterham. The Europa was at the end on its run, the Elite / Eclat were selling and the Esprit was about to be introduced. The Esprit was twice the price of a Europa.

And in F1, the 72 was history, the 76 a failure, the 77 a moving testbed. 1977, the ground effects Type 78 arrived in F1.

Ian
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 05:35 AM
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1975, Colin didn't care about the GS Lotus Europa. By that that time, he didn't care about the Europa period. He had moved on to other projects.

The Elan was done, the Seven was given to Caterham. The Europa was at the end on its run, the Elite / Eclat were selling and the Esprit was about to be introduced. The Esprit was twice the price of a Europa.

And in F1, the 72 was history, the 76 a failure, the 77 a moving testbed. 1977, the ground effects Type 78 arrived in F1.
Not my point. Whether or not Chapman cared about the Europa, or other models in terms of product viability, he most certainly would've had an interest in the GS Lotus Europa from a protection of trademark/brand perspective.

As Miles Wilkins stated in his key note at a LOG years ago...Lotus didn't make money selling cars, it made money suing people for trademark infringement. He made the comment somewhat tongue in cheek, but the point was made.

My view is that if Chapman had a problem with the use of the Lotus Brand or name, in this case in the instance of the GS Europa, he'd have done something to stop it.

To your point about the Esprit being released around that time...remember, the S1 was on a stretched Europa chassis, and the GS Europa's entire front clip is reminiscent of the Esprit (or TVR, for that matter).

Owned, loved, enjoyed, and now gone:
1969 Europa S2 Blue
1970 Europa S2 White
1974 Europa Twin Cam Blue
1974 Europa Twin Cam Blue
1984 Turbo Esprit Calypso Red
2005 Elise Starlight Black
2005 Elise Saffron Yellow
2005 Elise Ardent Red
2006 Exige Graphite Grey
2007 Exige Canyon Red

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1970 MGB GT
1970 Datsun 510
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1984 Pontiac Fiero
2004 Chrysler Crossfire
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 07:30 AM
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[QUOTE=lotusforsale;1312646]the S1 was on a stretched Europa chassis, QUOTE]

To Clarify:

The S1 Esprit was not built on a stretched Europa chassis. It had its own dedicated uniquely design chassis. However, the Esprit design does have a Europa origin. The original Guigaro design concept - known as the Silver Car - was in fact built on a stretched Europa chassis. Apparently after Chapman saw the Italdesign Boomerang Concept he was taken enough with the design to consider something similar for the upcoming Esprit. Some discussion with Guigaro ensued and a Europa cahssis was modified to fit the platform of the Esprit and it was shipped off to Italdesign for the build.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 07:35 AM
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Agreed, Colin would sue or complain at the drop of a hat... He loved that stuff.

I simply believe that Colin had no time to care about the GS Europa. He knew it was going to be a failure. It was a small blip to him. He had far more important things to be worried about. 1975 was a difficult year for Lotus. Moonraker was costing money, the Elite was not selling, the Esprit was underpowered and he wasn't winning in F1.

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-02-2009, 12:25 AM Thread Starter
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Went yesterday to have a look at the yellow car they offered me.
Nice, really nice. In person it looks more bizzare than on the pics.

Back at home my thoughts were:
1. Should i buy it?
2. The more important question - is it a Lotus?? ( a real one?? )

So it went to be a long (sleepless) night. Today at breakfast i showed the
car to my wife. In my opinion it was better to show her the pics of the
red one in this thread because its in a better condition than the yellow one.
Just to get her opinion ...
Well, what can i say? She saw the pics, changed the colour, closed her eyes
and nearly blacked out. The words she sayed after are not really applicable for
this Forum. Its better not to repeat what she said.

So, i was not in search of a Europa. I simply got that offer and went to see
the car.

Today i will inform the seller that i am not going to buy his car.

I hope its the right decision.

Thanks for your input and your help!

gospeedv8

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-02-2009, 05:23 AM
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeedv8 View Post
I hope its the right decision.
...well, to be blunt, it looks like a poorly-designed kit car to my eyes, and doesn't bring anything new to the table which other more-authentic lotus cars don't already do better - so short of collectors' completism, you've probably chosen wisely...

...think fiero-with-a-body-kit...

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-02-2009, 05:36 AM
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I think you made a good decision. There is nothing particulary noteworthy about the GS Europa. You have a nice collection as is, and if you were apt to add to it there are many other worthy Lotus to add. I would not fault someone who had an affinity for this particular car for acquiring it, but as a collector car and specifically a collectable Lotus it is way low on the list of cars to buy. I concur with your wife.

Kyle Kaulback '56 Mark VI '71 Type61mX '71 Type69 FF '71 Type 69 F2 '77 Super 907 '91 M100 Elan '91 Omega LotusSport 110 '05 Elise(custodian) '13 Evora S

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-02-2009, 07:59 AM
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Although I don't like it personally, it might have some dark appeal as an example of a William Towns design - he of the ill-fated '67 Lagonda among other things.

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