Help with Stebel horn wiring - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 04:33 PM
Registered User
 
codymac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: where the east tapers out and the west begins
Posts: 9,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
You need to re-do it, but not necessarily use the stock wiring - at least all of it.
Nah... there's already lots of people with upgraded fuses on the stock wiring without issues.

torque (tôrk) n. - an excuse for the lack of momentum.
- let's bring back CanAm & Group B!
- have you hugged your Exige today?
I'm currently working on my performance driving merit badge.
There's always somebody faster, sometimes it's me.
codymac is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 04:56 PM
Registered User
 
Chococar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
You need to re-do it, but not necessarily use the stock wiring - at least all of it.

By using the post under the access panel, it sounds like you have an Exige - they have a battery connection under the access point to allow jumping the car (so you can open the doors with a dead battery, since you need to open the doors to pull the engine cover release).

A better setup to use would be to use a relay in the circuit. Use the stock horn wire to trigger the relay and connect the other trigger terminal to ground. Then run the heavy gauge stranded wire from the post to the switched terminal of the relay. Make sure you install an in-line fuse very close to the connection at the post. Run the other switched terminal to the horn. Run the other terminal from the horn to ground.

By using the power sourced from the post, and a relay, you can deliver full power to the horn, and not worry about over-heating the stock wiring.

If only it was as easy to source power in an Elise...
+1

This is the right way to do it. Fuses protect the wiring from overheating. Why risk burning up your nice car?! I did this on my Elise--not much trouble at all.

--Joe
Chococar is offline  
post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Registered User
 
SirLotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delray Beach FL
Posts: 6,912
If anyone who just retrofitted with a higher rated fuse truly understood what was happening as they pushed that horn button I am reasonably sure they would not do it. Why take such a risk.
SirLotus is offline  
 
post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 05:59 PM
glb
Registered User
 
glb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chester, NJ
Posts: 10,976
Tim & Viper -

I know what you are saying, but given that the horn isn't used continuously(except as noted in jokes above), I don't think it's worth it.

In theory, you're correct, tho.

05 elise (BOE Rev300 supercharged, SSRs, shift tower mods, Multivex; HID hi/low beams); 05 Corolla XRS

Driving Tips-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f100...art-1-a-49665/
Moss Emergency Line-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f100...cy-line-36631/
Safely Piercing Wires-https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f129...esting-106438/
Bleeding Brakes- https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101...-brakes-241138
glb is online now  
post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Doghouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 460
Follow-up question / request for help

It's obvious I need to "re-do" the mod by replacing the solid core wire with #12 stranded wire.

Currently I have wires running from + and - posts under the (driver side) acess panel to the relay and the original wiring is used as the trigger. Yes this is an 07 Exige S with dual oil coolers. Acessing the OEM horn was a HUGE PITA. I ended up cutting the wires and unscrewing to get the nut loose.

Electrical is not my stong suit so any additional help would be great.

Specifically, how do I ground out a wire on this car when the horn is located in the crash structure approximately where the OEM horn was located? Any suggestions? Do I just find a bolt that is connected to the frame?

Also if memory serves me correctly, I run a wire connected to the + post to the horn (right??) and then the other wire to ground. Or is it the other way around? I always get confused as to which is hot and which is ground.

Thanks in advance for youir help.

From the Doghouse
>>>>>>>>>>
2007 Exige S - Arctic Silver w/ Black racing stripes (Long live the garage queen!)
'99 'track rat' Miata - Jade green with black stripes. (Drive it till it drops, it's a Miata!)
Doghouse is offline  
post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 07:15 PM
Registered User
 
codymac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: where the east tapers out and the west begins
Posts: 9,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheViper View Post
If anyone who just retrofitted with a higher rated fuse truly understood what was happening as they pushed that horn button I am reasonably sure they would not do it. Why take such a risk.
Several of us truly understand it and are still unconcerned.

torque (tôrk) n. - an excuse for the lack of momentum.
- let's bring back CanAm & Group B!
- have you hugged your Exige today?
I'm currently working on my performance driving merit badge.
There's always somebody faster, sometimes it's me.
codymac is offline  
post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 08:07 PM
Registered User
 
Johnny B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
Mine did not take anywhere near 90 seconds to blow. I suspect Johnny's didn't either...who blows their horn for 90 seconds?
The wife and I were at a stop light in the right lane. Next to us was a dump truck with a trailer that decided that he wanted to turn right. It was headed for the left side of the front end and I hit the horn.

Whether or not it was 90 seconds is debatable, but I can tell you in a situation like that, it sure felt like a long time because all you are thinking is "Oh crap, he's going to crush us and the car."

I now keep a secondary horn in the car.

Johnny B is offline  
post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 08:11 PM
Registered User
 
Johnny B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by codymac View Post
Several of us truly understand it and are still unconcerned.
We are causing global warming, aren't we?



Johnny B is offline  
post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-12-2008, 08:56 PM
Registered User
 
tvacc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2,989
I bought the horn from Griots....while I was buying their vaccum. I use the vaccuum in the computer business. Works great.

Anyways..I gave up on the horn when I could not get access to it because of the twin coolers. I looked for a post on the install. Anyone have a link?

Tony Vaccaro
2005 Elise Ardent Red, www.lotusowners.com LOONY (Lotus Owners of New York) and the Church of the HolyLotus, Drive Fast Take Chances, 93 Caterham 7, 71 Elan, 70 Elan GTS, 1991 M100, 1999 Sport 190 Elise, 1974 Europa TC, 1973 Europa JPS #15 TwinCam.
tvacc is offline  
post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-13-2008, 04:23 AM
Registered User
 
Chococar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 2,206
Hi Tony,

Here's my write-up on my horn installation.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f129...allation-9457/

Hope it helps.

Thanks,

Joe
Chococar is offline  
post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-13-2008, 09:08 AM
Moderator Extraordinaire!
 
tesprit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Posts: 2,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheViper View Post
If anyone who just retrofitted with a higher rated fuse truly understood what was happening as they pushed that horn button I am reasonably sure they would not do it. Why take such a risk.
And you were doing such a good job of not getting involved this time......it looks like they got the best of you after all. Remember, these guys are posting that changing a fuse to a higher amperage than the wiring/circuit allows is regarded as an upgrade!
tesprit is offline  
post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-13-2008, 12:16 PM
Registered User
 
TimMullen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 12,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by glb View Post
Tim & Viper -

I know what you are saying, but given that the horn isn't used continuously(except as noted in jokes above), I don't think it's worth it.

In theory, you're correct, tho.
Actually, besides the possibility of overheating the wires (yes, it's not really that much of a problem), using a larger gauge wire and fuse will allow the air horn to draw the maximum power. Air horns use a small air compressors to create the air flow. More power, and the compressor runs stronger and faster. The result is a louder horn, and a longer lasting horn.

It was common for people to add an air horn to early Miatas and use the stock wiring with a larger fuse. But if you ran a higher current circuit triggered by a relay, you ended up with a louder horn and eliminated the possibility of blowing a fuse. I ran my Miata with a bigger fuse for about a year with no problems, but when I rewired things for a dedicated circuit and relay, the horn got louder...

The wiring that you want to use is shown in my crude drawing below. Basically you use the stock Purple with Yellow tracer horn wire to trigger the relay. Connect the wire to pin 85 or 86 of the standard relay - this is the relay coil circuit. Connect the other pin (86 or 85 - which ever you didn't plug the other wire into) to ground. This can be the factory horn's ground wire, a bolt on the chassis, or the battery negative post (on the Exige).

Then you connect a battery positive source (the battery post on the Exige or some other source on an Elise - some tap into the power under the dash, or the power window 20 amp circuit) to pin 87 on the relay. Connect pin 30 of the relay to the air horn's positive connector. Connect the air horn's negative connector to ground, or the battery negative post on the Exige. Don't connect it to the original horn ground wire - just as the positive wire needs to be big enough, so does the ground.

On other cars I've done this wiring to, I mount the relay up near the other fuses/relays in the bay. I tap into the power, add an in-line fuse, and connect to the relay. Then I run three wires down to the horn area. Two are naturally the horn Positive and Negative wires which I connect to pin 30 and ground at the relay end. The third wire is used to plug into the OEM horn wire, and brings the "signal" back up to the relay (connected to pin 85). I connect pin 86 to the same local ground that I used for the horn's negative wire that I ran.

Doing it this way does the least harm to the OEM wiring - it lets you remove the modification and return things to stock if you should ever need to. Mounting the relay up by the fuse box also keeps it up out of the road grime and water. "Physically" you could mount the relay in front with the horn, but "electrically" it doesn't matter where it's mounted - the more protected, the better.

Incidentally, I always use a socket for the relay. Just using spade connectors on a relay is an easy way to mess up when you are plugging things together. It's also harder to diagnose a loose/dirty connection farther down the road. They sell relay sockets with "pigtail" wires already connected, but it's far better if you find one with the loose insert-able spade connectors and crimp them onto your own wires. This eliminates having to splice together extra wries, and makes for a much more professional installation.

All that said swapping the fuse and "overloading" the wiring works, it just that supplying the proper circuit and fuses works better. How much better? That depends on how much work you want to do...

Here's my crude wiring diagram. Below that is the pin locations on a standard automotive relay (be careful, there are a few variations on this that are slightly different - but the standard is shown).



Attached Images
   

Tim Mullen --- There is no such thing as Touring suspension or Touring wheels.

I love being married. It's so great to find that one person that you want to annoy for the rest of your life. - Rita Rudner


Chantilly, VA http://members.cox.net/elans4/
05 Lotus Elise - Chrome Orange - No Touring - No LSS - No Hardtop - Lotus Driving Lights - Lotus "Chin Guards" - plain and simple.
94 Miata R Package - Black
72 Lotus Elan Sprint - Colorado Orange/Cirrus White
TimMullen is offline  
post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-14-2012, 11:01 AM
Registered User
 
apexdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Palm Springs, CA
Posts: 985
Relay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
Actually, besides the possibility of overheating the wires (yes, it's not really that much of a problem), using a larger gauge wire and fuse will allow the air horn to draw the maximum power. Air horns use a small air compressors to create the air flow. More power, and the compressor runs stronger and faster. The result is a louder horn, and a longer lasting horn.

It was common for people to add an air horn to early Miatas and use the stock wiring with a larger fuse. But if you ran a higher current circuit triggered by a relay, you ended up with a louder horn and eliminated the possibility of blowing a fuse. I ran my Miata with a bigger fuse for about a year with no problems, but when I rewired things for a dedicated circuit and relay, the horn got louder...

The wiring that you want to use is shown in my crude drawing below. Basically you use the stock Purple with Yellow tracer horn wire to trigger the relay. Connect the wire to pin 85 or 86 of the standard relay - this is the relay coil circuit. Connect the other pin (86 or 85 - which ever you didn't plug the other wire into) to ground. This can be the factory horn's ground wire, a bolt on the chassis, or the battery negative post (on the Exige).

Then you connect a battery positive source (the battery post on the Exige or some other source on an Elise - some tap into the power under the dash, or the power window 20 amp circuit) to pin 87 on the relay. Connect pin 30 of the relay to the air horn's positive connector. Connect the air horn's negative connector to ground, or the battery negative post on the Exige. Don't connect it to the original horn ground wire - just as the positive wire needs to be big enough, so does the ground.

On other cars I've done this wiring to, I mount the relay up near the other fuses/relays in the bay. I tap into the power, add an in-line fuse, and connect to the relay. Then I run three wires down to the horn area. Two are naturally the horn Positive and Negative wires which I connect to pin 30 and ground at the relay end. The third wire is used to plug into the OEM horn wire, and brings the "signal" back up to the relay (connected to pin 85). I connect pin 86 to the same local ground that I used for the horn's negative wire that I ran.

Doing it this way does the least harm to the OEM wiring - it lets you remove the modification and return things to stock if you should ever need to. Mounting the relay up by the fuse box also keeps it up out of the road grime and water. "Physically" you could mount the relay in front with the horn, but "electrically" it doesn't matter where it's mounted - the more protected, the better.

Incidentally, I always use a socket for the relay. Just using spade connectors on a relay is an easy way to mess up when you are plugging things together. It's also harder to diagnose a loose/dirty connection farther down the road. They sell relay sockets with "pigtail" wires already connected, but it's far better if you find one with the loose insert-able spade connectors and crimp them onto your own wires. This eliminates having to splice together extra wries, and makes for a much more professional installation.

All that said swapping the fuse and "overloading" the wiring works, it just that supplying the proper circuit and fuses works better. How much better? That depends on how much work you want to do...

Here's my crude wiring diagram. Below that is the pin locations on a standard automotive relay (be careful, there are a few variations on this that are slightly different - but the standard is shown).
My wiring diagram shows a relay already in the circuit. if this is true, isn't that a relay triggering another relay which triggers the horn??

Doing an install now, so would appreciate any info.


2006 Elise, Graphite Grey/Red leather, Sport Elise Suspension, Cup airbox, ECU ref lash, MonoBalls, etc. etc.
1992 900SS Ducati Race Spec Built by Ferracci
2006 KTM 950 SuperMoto, a work in progress

Old stuff gone: Ferrari 275GTB/4, '69 1275 Cooper S. '72 500 Fiat, old Jags, etc. Never bought a boring car.
apexdc is offline  
post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-14-2012, 11:20 AM
Registered User
 
SirLotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Delray Beach FL
Posts: 6,912
Quote:
Originally Posted by apexdc View Post
My wiring diagram shows a relay already in the circuit. if this is true, isn't that a relay triggering another relay which triggers the horn??

Doing an install now, so would appreciate any info.

The existing OEM horn relay's wiring is not capable of carrying the current of an aftermarket horn, hence the additional relay.
Michael
SirLotus is offline  
post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Registered User
 
apexdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Palm Springs, CA
Posts: 985
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLotus View Post
The existing OEM horn relay's wiring is not capable of carrying the current of an aftermarket horn, hence the additional relay.
Michael
Thanks for the help,


2006 Elise, Graphite Grey/Red leather, Sport Elise Suspension, Cup airbox, ECU ref lash, MonoBalls, etc. etc.
1992 900SS Ducati Race Spec Built by Ferracci
2006 KTM 950 SuperMoto, a work in progress

Old stuff gone: Ferrari 275GTB/4, '69 1275 Cooper S. '72 500 Fiat, old Jags, etc. Never bought a boring car.
apexdc is offline  
post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-25-2016, 09:24 PM
Registered User
 
Cardinal#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 109
Engine cut out in Elise

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimMullen View Post
Actually, besides the possibility of overheating the wires (yes, it's not really that much of a problem), using a larger gauge wire and fuse will allow the air horn to draw the maximum power. Air horns use a small air compressors to create the air flow. More power, and the compressor runs stronger and faster. The result is a louder horn, and a longer lasting horn.

It was common for people to add an air horn to early Miatas and use the stock wiring with a larger fuse. But if you ran a higher current circuit triggered by a relay, you ended up with a louder horn and eliminated the possibility of blowing a fuse. I ran my Miata with a bigger fuse for about a year with no problems, but when I rewired things for a dedicated circuit and relay, the horn got louder...

The wiring that you want to use is shown in my crude drawing below. Basically you use the stock Purple with Yellow tracer horn wire to trigger the relay. Connect the wire to pin 85 or 86 of the standard relay - this is the relay coil circuit. Connect the other pin (86 or 85 - which ever you didn't plug the other wire into) to ground. This can be the factory horn's ground wire, a bolt on the chassis, or the battery negative post (on the Exige).

Then you connect a battery positive source (the battery post on the Exige or some other source on an Elise - some tap into the power under the dash, or the power window 20 amp circuit) to pin 87 on the relay. Connect pin 30 of the relay to the air horn's positive connector. Connect the air horn's negative connector to ground, or the battery negative post on the Exige. Don't connect it to the original horn ground wire - just as the positive wire needs to be big enough, so does the ground.

On other cars I've done this wiring to, I mount the relay up near the other fuses/relays in the bay. I tap into the power, add an in-line fuse, and connect to the relay. Then I run three wires down to the horn area. Two are naturally the horn Positive and Negative wires which I connect to pin 30 and ground at the relay end. The third wire is used to plug into the OEM horn wire, and brings the "signal" back up to the relay (connected to pin 85). I connect pin 86 to the same local ground that I used for the horn's negative wire that I ran.

Doing it this way does the least harm to the OEM wiring - it lets you remove the modification and return things to stock if you should ever need to. Mounting the relay up by the fuse box also keeps it up out of the road grime and water. "Physically" you could mount the relay in front with the horn, but "electrically" it doesn't matter where it's mounted - the more protected, the better.

Incidentally, I always use a socket for the relay. Just using spade connectors on a relay is an easy way to mess up when you are plugging things together. It's also harder to diagnose a loose/dirty connection farther down the road. They sell relay sockets with "pigtail" wires already connected, but it's far better if you find one with the loose insert-able spade connectors and crimp them onto your own wires. This eliminates having to splice together extra wries, and makes for a much more professional installation.

All that said swapping the fuse and "overloading" the wiring works, it just that supplying the proper circuit and fuses works better. How much better? That depends on how much work you want to do...

Here's my crude wiring diagram. Below that is the pin locations on a standard automotive relay (be careful, there are a few variations on this that are slightly different - but the standard is shown).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLotus View Post
The existing OEM horn relay's wiring is not capable of carrying the current of an aftermarket horn, hence the additional relay.
Michael

I used Tim's wiring schematic (above) to wire my Stebel in my 2009 Elise. I tapped into the 20A aux power line (Fuse #1) to power the Stebel and I grounded it to an extra bolt hole on my aluminum radiator (since I measured 12.9 V between the #1 fuse and the aluminum = same as aluminum chassis). I used both stock horn wires to signal the relay. The horn worked, but my engine cut-out and stalled while at idle the two times I have tried it. What have I done wrong?

Do I need to move the ground to another place farther away? Should I use a different circuit for horn power (other than Fuse #1)? Any other thoughts? Tim or Michael? Thanks for any help...
Cardinal#1 is offline  
post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 05:41 AM
Registered User
 
Lotusmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,569
Lotusmotion is offline  
post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 06:41 AM
Registered User
 
Cardinal#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotusmotion View Post


Thank you, I saw this thread and it has been very helpful. I wired it in a similar fashion, except I put the relay up by the fuse box. Also, because it is an Elise, I had to tap into one of the circuits at the fuse box (aux #1) for the positive power to the horn. I'm wondering if either of these things or my grounding location up near the fuse box is what is causing the engine to cut out. Does anyone know? Thanks


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
Cardinal#1 is offline  
post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 06:44 AM
Registered User
 
Cardinal#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 109
Picture of relay by the fuse box. You can see my in-line 20 amp fuse with the red positive wire.

Name:  ImageUploadedByAG Free1461681762.644736.jpg
Views: 290
Size:  94.1 KB

Picture of my horn wire in place.

Name:  ImageUploadedByAG Free1461681828.357576.jpg
Views: 403
Size:  99.6 KB

Name:  ImageUploadedByAG Free1461681854.008178.jpg
Views: 446
Size:  111.1 KB

Hoping someone can help me figure this out...



Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
Cardinal#1 is offline  
post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-26-2016, 07:11 AM
Registered User
 
Lotusmotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,569
Cardinal#1, I recommend focusing on the path of travel of your horn circuit wiring. Try moving the circuit wiring around into a different temporary positions (zip-tie, rag, etc.) to see if the cut-out stops.

My experience (based on process of elimination) was that the engine cut-out was caused by an electrical disruption that resulted from the horn wire being routed next to a sensitive electrical component.

2006 Exige - Phantom Black
Lotusmotion is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Electrical

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome