New Corvette: 495hp mid-engine, Under $60k - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:03 AM
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For everyone looking at it being sub-$60k. That will be base 1LT with no z51 and no options. For me the z51 is a must.

Based on 2019 prices:

Base Corvette is $56,995 w/ 7speed 1LT, 2LT is $4500 more, 3LT is $9750 more than 1LT
Z51 is a $5,000 option.
Current Competition seats are $2,000 option.

2020 C8 will be $59,995 (no upcharge for automatic!) 😛

So for a 1LT with Z51 expect it to be at least $64,995 and 2LT + Z51 to be $69,500+ All-singing all dancing High $70s.
I don't think anyone is actually thinking they will walk out with an absolutely base Corvette. That base price was a minimum of $10k lower than popular expectations. After the first year or two when production starts to catch up with demand GM starts to offer incentives on Corvettes. It's going to be a lot of car for the money. The interior quality appears to be another step up from the C7 so there seems to be less and less compromise for the performance $$ than there were during the c5 and c6 Vette days.
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post #22 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:09 AM
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https://jalopnik.com/2020-chevrolet-...-kn-1836485708



According to R&T, the Evora 400 is 3100lb, so a C8 is 266lb heavier but has a 95hp advantage. A 718 Cayman S is 3054lb with the PDK, though it sits at 365hp and starts at $70k.
Don't mix dry and wet curb weight, must figure about 150-175 lbs for fuel, oil, coolant

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post #23 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:16 AM
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People are ragging on Lotus making the Evija. I don't get it. Lotus hasn't gotten this much attention as a sports car company in...well...maybe ever? It brings clout to the brand and new tech that hopefully trickle down to cheaper models. Would you have preferred Lotus announce a new completely new Evora-level or higher car and then find out its specs got trounced by the new $80k Corvette? Now Lotus knows what they are competing with when they design future "cheaper" models. A lot of these more exotic or higher end car makers used to be able to hang their hat on the mid-engine aspect of their car, now being mid-engine will be no longer exotic or different when you see a C8 on every corner. While the new C8 makes me a bit nervous about the value of my 400, in the long run it will most likely be good for sports cars in-general.
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post #24 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:18 AM
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So If GM can send out base Mid/engine Corvettes at 60k, why can't Lotus do that with the Evora 400? I'm sure there is a lot to the answer but if someone could chime in...

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post #25 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by fzust View Post
A couple of other notes:

...
So for a 1LT with Z51 expect it to be at least $64,995 and 2LT + Z51 to be $69,500+ All-singing all dancing High $70s.
So $40k less than typical entry Evora GT

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post #26 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:23 AM
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So If GM can send out base Mid/engine Corvettes at 60k, why can't Lotus do that with the Evora 400? I'm sure there is a lot to the answer but if someone could chime in...
Very easy answer 1) purchasing power of a huge corporation, 2) amortization of assembly plants, engineering, corporate overhead over 3 million vehicles per year not just 1600, 3) annual unit sales world wide: Corvette 30,000, Evora maybe 500

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Last edited by Julian73; 07-19-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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post #27 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:26 AM
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A $2.2 million dollar car is going to be a big seller!

Can see the average Lotus owner purchasing one of them?

They may as well try to sell you a spaceship!
With 130 cars they don't have to appease the Average

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post #28 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:32 AM
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So Lotus can barely sell an Evora 400 as is; I can see this hurting the Evora even more and it's resale values. Lotus NEEDS to develop a smaller Evija look-alike, weighing in at 3k pounds, ditch the rear seats, with a manual, priced at 60k, and packing 430 HP to even start to compete with the Corvette.

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post #29 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:58 AM
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Very easy answer 1) purchasing power of a huge corporation, 2) amortization of assembly plants, engineering, corporate overhead over 3 million vehicles per year not just 1600, 3) annual unit sales world wide: Corvette 30,000, Evora maybe 500
This hits is fairly well. It's the volume and production. I'd guess that the Corvette is not going to be as labor intensive to build and they'll sell a lot of them. They also control most of the parts, i.e. not outsourcing engines and what not.
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post #30 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:29 PM
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I like it. Another well engineered <$100K mid engine sports car is a good thing. Always.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.I've never really been a fan of the Evora styling, especially everything forward of the A pillar. But then, I loved my Europas more than any other Lotus I've owned, and they are generally considered to be ugly at best.

I really, really like the styling of the C7, only Vette that's ever turned my head and still does each of the 4 or 5+ times a day I see one.

This one is on another level altogether.

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post #31 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:41 PM
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So Lotus can barely sell an Evora 400 as is; I can see this hurting the Evora even more and it's resale values. Lotus NEEDS to develop a smaller Evija look-alike, weighing in at 3k pounds, ditch the rear seats, with a manual, priced at 60k, and packing 430 HP to even start to compete with the Corvette.
You are missing the point

Attempting to compete with the Corvette is suicide.

A small company buying hundreds of things will make less money than a large company making tens of thousands of things

I am in manufacturing. Volume prices look like this:

qty 1 $100
qty 10 $50
qty 50 $25
qty 100 $18
qty 1000 $8
qty 10000 $6


SO how exactly is Lotus going to 'compete' with the Corvette when they buy any of 1000 parts at 18 bucks and GM pays 6 for the same part?

Oh, and when you are making ten thousand of something, you can amortize engineering costs to make the parts cheaper, not to mention the engineering you get for free when you get parts out of your own parts bin.

This is a very silly conversation.

In 1989 the Esprit SE cost like 80k, and the Corvette cost, lemmee look it up....32k


I agree that Lotus should be building a higher volume car, but it will not be competing with the corvette
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post #32 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 12:48 PM
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A billionaire with a controlling interest in Lotus selling a $2.2 million dollar car to 2,203 other billionaires in the world or they could be marketing vehicles to the 36 million people in the world who have a net worth over 1 million dollars or to someone who works hard and saves for their dream car who will never be able to pay $2.2 million but can afford a Corvette or even a Lotus.

I think the car is brilliant marketing and is getting the Lotus name out in the forefront but I also think the release of the C8 is getting just as much attention.
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post #33 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 01:09 PM
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This hits is fairly well. It's the volume and production. I'd guess that the Corvette is not going to be as labor intensive to build and they'll sell a lot of them. They also control most of the parts, i.e. not outsourcing engines and what not.
I am far from a GM fan boy, but they do execute well corporately even if I wouldn't buy most of their products. This is an economies-of-scale play. The entire car business is. GM makes their own engines because the vertical integration gives them more operating margin. Basically if you are big enough you can choke the competition out by margins. BMW and esp. Porsche have a VERY different model where they have been successful in selling their brand and running higher margins. Porsche's margins are the best in the world, but their volume is relatively tiny. And they leverage VW's corporate SG&A. BMW is more of a full line supplier which means their margins are lower than Porsche, but better than GM.

GM was in a death spiral of having to pay $1500 more per car to cover Pension liabilities, so they cut costs and the product sucked. Then they had to throw rebates on the windshield which hurt them more. Another death spiral from short-term thinking bad management from both execs and labor. In the financial crisis they wrote off those liabilities and stuck it to the US tax payer. Free of that debt they are now a healthy company that can compete well.

The above reasons are why I've said before and I will say again that Tesla will get eaten. Musk's vision is/was great. His approach of hitting the high-end first, building up capability, then working down the lower margin and volume was the right call. However, VW, Merc, GM and others are already electrifying. Why buy a Tesla when you can get a cheaper one from GM? Why buy a Tesla when you can get a newer nicer EV from VW or Merc? Once those guys are on-board, Tesla's stock price will return to earth, and they will get bought by one of the above or another. Expect this to happen in the next 3-4 years.

For Lotus, they don't have the scale or purchasing power. The not only spend more per car, but they have to charge more margin to make the corporate numbers work, which negatively affects sales. Vicious cycle. They are a niche car that many people don't know about. While on the surface the Evija Electric looks stupid(and is), it gives a big boost to the name, and now with enough money behind them they can build out the portfolio and be what they and everyone else wants to be, a Porsche alternative. Aspirational brand that charges above-market prices for niche vehicles but in decent numbers to support a proper dealer network, service etc.

As for the best of the best? While the Evija, Mercedes One, et all are awesome supercars, the fastest one IMHO will be the Aston Martin Valkyrie. 1160HP + 2300lbs + Adrian Newey = Fastest Roadcar Ring time ever.
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post #34 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Don't mix dry and wet curb weight, must figure about 150-175 lbs for fuel, oil, coolant

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The quoted 3366 lbs. is DRY weight. Expect another 145 lbs. once you include gas (18.5 gals?) + oil + coolant... I'm guessing 3511 lbs. "curb"
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The quoted 3366 by Chevy is dry weight. The Evora and Cayman are quoted with fluids. Fluids typically weigh about 150-200 pounds or so.
I didn't notice the dry/curb distinction (that's what I get for posting right before going to sleep).

Running the numbers compared to some similar cars (with the links to where I found them), assuming the C8 is 3511lb, the power to weight looks like:

C8 Corvette (at 495hp/3511lb): 7.09 lb/hp
Evora 400: 7.94 lb/hp
Cayman S (PDK): 8.7 lb/hp
McLaren 650S (using DIN weight): 4.91 lb/hp
Acura NSX (2nd gen, using total system power): 6.77 lb/hp
C7 Coupe (3298lb base, assuming that quoted is manual): 7.17 lb/hp
Mk.V Supra: 10.14 lb/hp
458 Italia: 5.74 lb/hp
488 GTB: 4.91 lb/hp

(note: I tried for a while to get the above formatted in a table, but it doesn't seem to work following the BBCode guidelines)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzust View Post
BMW and esp. Porsche have a VERY different model where they have been successful in selling their brand and running higher margins. Porsche's margins are the best in the world, but their volume is relatively tiny. And they leverage VW's corporate SG&A. BMW is more of a full line supplier which means their margins are lower than Porsche, but better than GM.

...

The above reasons are why I've said before and I will say again that Tesla will get eaten. Musk's vision is/was great. His approach of hitting the high-end first, building up capability, then working down the lower margin and volume was the right call. However, VW, Merc, GM and others are already electrifying. Why buy a Tesla when you can get a cheaper one from GM? Why buy a Tesla when you can get a newer nicer EV from VW or Merc? Once those guys are on-board, Tesla's stock price will return to earth, and they will get bought by one of the above or another. Expect this to happen in the next 3-4 years.

For Lotus, they don't have the scale or purchasing power. The not only spend more per car, but they have to charge more margin to make the corporate numbers work, which negatively affects sales. Vicious cycle. They are a niche car that many people don't know about. While on the surface the Evija Electric looks stupid(and is), it gives a big boost to the name, and now with enough money behind them they can build out the portfolio and be what they and everyone else wants to be, a Porsche alternative. Aspirational brand that charges above-market prices for niche vehicles but in decent numbers to support a proper dealer network, service etc.
I'm still very amused that just a few years ago, Porsche was basically a hedge fund that built cars as a hobby.

As a kind-of-disappointed 6-year Tesla owner, I'd argue that Tesla has their supercharger network and (shrinking) vehicle assortment as competitive advantages. If you want an EV from GM right now, it's going to be the crossover-height, FWD Bolt (e.g. "any color you want, as long as it's black"). At least Tesla will sell you a sedan. While the situation is changing, VW and MB still don't sell 200-mile-range EVs - MB has the B-class EV and VW has the e-Golf, but both have ~100-mile ranges.

That said, I personally think their build quality is only on par with 90s GM (e.g. pretty bad). What I feel really hurts is the experience with service. They have basically lost us as customers after our poor ownership experience (I personally like the description of the service experience as a combination of denial and condescension).

I feel the need to add that at the time of this post, I have no direct financial interest in Tesla (other than being a current owner and hoping they don't go belly-up before our warranty expires). I know that I'll be accused of being in bed with big oil and a short selling spawn of Satan otherwise.

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Last edited by gray; 07-19-2019 at 04:10 PM.
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post #35 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 06:07 PM
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I didn't notice the dry/curb distinction (that's what I get for posting right before going to sleep).

I'm still very amused that just a few years ago, Porsche was basically a hedge fund that built cars as a hobby.

As a kind-of-disappointed 6-year Tesla owner, I'd argue that Tesla has their supercharger network and (shrinking) vehicle assortment as competitive advantages. If you want an EV from GM right now, it's going to be the crossover-height, FWD Bolt (e.g. "any color you want, as long as it's black"). At least Tesla will sell you a sedan. While the situation is changing, VW and MB still don't sell 200-mile-range EVs - MB has the B-class EV and VW has the e-Golf, but both have ~100-mile ranges.

That said, I personally think their build quality is only on par with 90s GM (e.g. pretty bad). What I feel really hurts is the experience with service. They have basically lost us as customers after our poor ownership experience (I personally like the description of the service experience as a combination of denial and condescension).

I feel the need to add that at the time of this post, I have no direct financial interest in Tesla (other than being a current owner and hoping they don't go belly-up before our warranty expires). I know that I'll be accused of being in bed with big oil and a short selling spawn of Satan otherwise.
You're correct about "right now". Looking at what Audi, Merc, Jag have launching in 2020 and 2021, I have to think that will hit Tesla where they live. Once investors see that they are not a monster growth story, rather a nifty IDEA any car company can do by throwing Billions of dollars at it and 7 years of R&D, the stock price will fall. Great people will leave when their options go underwater. When it gets to sanity pricing, they will be cheap enough to buy outright OR breakup and take the pieces. I don't like the idea of this, mind you, rather I just see it as inevitable.


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post #36 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 06:50 PM
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Yeah, so the price for performance is still amazing. I own an Evora 400 and am not regretting it, but just wow (at least on paper). Of course, I do have two rear seats that will allow me to get the family across town for dinner, or hold a LOT of stuff for a weekend trip or day driving to the track.
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post #37 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 07:41 PM
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The base C8 will be serious competition for every sports car manufacturer on the planet. Under $60K for a high performance mid-engine sports car......there really is nothing else to buy. Certainly got my attention.

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post #38 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 08:26 PM
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Dang, I love my Elise, but after tracking it for 11 years, this is very tempting. If I sell my Elise and daily driver I could just cover the cost of one! Too bad I can't ever part with the Elise.
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post #39 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 08:37 PM
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Good luck getting even a base one without the dealer giving you a market adjustment of +10-15k markup until they've sold enough to make them common again.

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post #40 of 163 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 09:01 PM
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Personally, I plan on parking mine right next to my Exige.

I think it's a great step for sports-cars in a world where it seems like every car being made is for a demographic other than me. If/when Lotus returns to the USA in force (e.g. at least one dealer in my state) I'm sure their niche will still exist. In the mean-time cars like this help keep the market segment alive.
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