New Corvette: 495hp mid-engine, Under $60k - Page 6 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #101 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-24-2019, 03:23 PM
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This. I have never considered even getting caught dead in a Corvette. Then the C7 came around and it got me interested, but I never thought about leaving these pastures of small, compact foreign cars (Japanese and British, mostly). But with the C8... I'm now sitting squarely on the fence.
This sums up my recent interest in vettes as well. I knew they had the performance but hated the looks. When the C7 came out, oh OK that looks much better! Even caused me to do some online dealer perusing. Now with the C8 it is definitely a car I will be looking at seriously in the next year or two.
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post #102 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 04:16 AM
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Food for thought.
One way or another Lotus needs to find its niche, and its not where the vette or cayman sits.


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post #103 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 04:42 AM
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Food for thought.
One way or another Lotus needs to find its niche, and its not where the vette or cayman sits.


https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/cayman...-a-bit-special
That Cayman seems pretty cool, but when I think about the weight and Turnbull Canyon turns I take to work, I will keep the Elise.

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post #104 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 07:48 AM
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.....and one can go to Nipawin Sk and have the oil changed! Nation wide service is quite a bonus. If one does not like the local dealer, then........pick one. Does one want Exclusivity or just to drive? I call Porsche 'Commoners' and 'Vettes are even more common, BUT mid-engine.....(Homer drooling emoji)! Sometimes commonality is OK if it has great results.

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post #105 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 09:17 AM
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This sums up my recent interest in vettes as well. I knew they had the performance but hated the looks. When the C7 came out, oh OK that looks much better! Even caused me to do some online dealer perusing. Now with the C8 it is definitely a car I will be looking at seriously in the next year or two.
I think the C8 looks pretty great in the press photos. I feel there are some weird angles where the design doesn't feel so cohesive --- the rear and the front especially (the hood and the raked in grille). The profile looks phenomenal. Though I'd wager that seeing it in person would be a VERY different experience. It might be one of those cars that looks way better in the metal than on a flat screen. I feel that the Evora is the same way, along with the new NSX. They look GOOD in photos, but in person they look FANTASTIC. Eagerly awaiting reviews and if they've managed to fix the heavy steering that plagued the C7 generation. Plus the fact that they tried to engineer the car to enable relatively easy maintenance is really intriguing.

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post #106 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 11:35 AM
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I agree with some of the comments above. Until seeing the NSX in real space, on the road, pictures never did do it justice. I have yet to see a photo of an Evora that exemplifies how it looks in person. Some angles of the C8 look confused and busy in 2D but I will reserve judgment until seeing the actual car.

Every brand has it's compassionate followers who no matter what will remain ambassadors and remain loyal. That is true of Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari and especially Corvette who far and wide have the biggest fan base. The dilemma Lotus now faces is not just maintain their sales base but expand it. Actually they don't really have a sales base. The Evora platform is ten years old. It sorely needs to be replaced to retain any relevancy in the market. The "new" Evora GT, while a marginal improvement on the 400, is only a range extending band aid. Would I sell my Evora S for one? Doubtful. It's hard to justify the $60K+ upgrade. For less money, much less, you can now purchase a car that is faster, more comfortable, and more refined. Corvette has a superior DCT that Lotus does not offer. It's sills are lower and narrower and there's room to comfortably accommodate someone as tall as 6' 7" and 300 pounds. The Cayman GT4 takes the 718 platform into 997 GT3 territory plus Porsche has the Macan and Cayenne to fall back on for profitability.

So the jury is out where Lotus might be headed and, as suggested by Boxerman, there is no room for them to compete at the entry level. Corvette is going to have that covered. The only disadvantage is the badge - regardless of how well built it may be it's still a Chevy, but like it or not the mid engine supercar is now attainable to the proverbial Everyman and for about the price of an Evora GT without carbon package, you can buy the new GT4. The landscape has dramatically changed. It remains to be seen what niche Lotus will carve to be competitive and profitable and not lose their identity, but Lotus will never be able to compete on "value". It's been two years and Geely hasn't showed us where they are headed save a limited edition electric hypercar. "For the drivers"? Really? More like for the few narcissistic billionaire collectors. Now we are told Lotus is planning another announcement before the end of the year. We'll see. It's time to get the ball rolling.
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post #107 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 02:29 PM
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That Cayman seems pretty cool, but when I think about the weight and Turnbull Canyon turns I take to work, I will keep the Elise.
I could edit that location out, but I'll just ask that you refrain from posting it again lest more vehicles than we'd like will start showing up there.

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post #108 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 04:26 PM
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I think the C8 looks pretty great in the press photos. I feel there are some weird angles where the design doesn't feel so cohesive --- the rear and the front especially (the hood and the raked in grille). The profile looks phenomenal. Though I'd wager that seeing it in person would be a VERY different experience. It might be one of those cars that looks way better in the metal than on a flat screen. I feel that the Evora is the same way, along with the new NSX. They look GOOD in photos, but in person they look FANTASTIC. Eagerly awaiting reviews and if they've managed to fix the heavy steering that plagued the C7 generation. Plus the fact that they tried to engineer the car to enable relatively easy maintenance is really intriguing.
At least on the C7 Z51 that I had, the steering sensitivity was adjustable. You could set it up with the different performance modes so that the steering was heavier (which I preferred) in the racier modes, along with different displays to go with the modes or completely custom modes. There were a lot of cool things the C7 did, but I only had it a year and didn't spend the time to learn them all. I've never heard of the heavy steering in the C7 until your post, so unless you've driven one, I'd take it with a grain of salt. With the C8 steering feel will likely be completely different.

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post #109 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-25-2019, 05:35 PM
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Taking it at face value, it's hard not to be impressed by this Corvette.
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post #110 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 08:47 PM
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Next week my local dealer will have a real one on display so I signed up to go to the unveiling party.
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post #111 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 10:46 PM
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You guys are all talk. First time through an apex in the 'vette you'll be trying to figure out the quickest route back to the warm cocoon of perfect steering feel which is your Lotus.
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post #112 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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Im saying that big premiums(past first year gotta have it crowd) means the manufacturers are not producing sufficient quantity and or playing short term cynical(stupid rich people) marketing games. That doesent mean they should overproduce but ferrari for years way underproduced creating their own premiums and long term brand erosion probelms. They did make lots of money on expesive worthless options though.
Now as some argue that shortage built brand desireability, but it was double edged sword and created long term brand erosion by alienating a core customer base, and created space for serious competition.. Maclren for one could never have gotten where they are if not for so many pissed off ferrari enthusiast drivers. Additionaly catering to the poseir crowd meant the product lost its very viceral nature in the quest to become useable to the lawyers wife.

Once you start marketing exclusivelky to the "collector/poseur" crowd as ferrari did, you alienate a key core customer base. yes theyll buy used that is untill there is an alternative. real driver care very little for "brand" other than some brands consistently make great cars. Ferrai today makes some really cool stuff, but mostly its handbags for men, with negative stigma.

I'll take myself as an example. I already owned a ferrari(still own it), wanted to buy a 430 new, couldnt even get on the list without playing dealer games, buying what I didnt want etc.
later on I tried a 458 because it looked so great and only had a 18mos wait list which was ok, but their product by then was bland to drive most of the time on road and not really a track machine so of little interest, but I was a buyer for a speciale which you couldnt get unless you were figuratively prepared to drop on your knees and suck ...
I honestly don't think GM is going to be limiting production in any meaningful way (at least not in any way that isn't related to manufacturing issues that might come up). Their production is probably calibrated at whatever number their operations specliasts and MBAs have modeled to be an optimal balance of profit and quality. Their only other realistic option is to biuld a ton of them and push back the release date so nobody gets one first (and you know there's going to be people bidding for their place in line at the dealer when it comes time to collect the car). The bidding to be the first really seems unavoidable - either you wait or you pay. Even direct sales with our Tesla worked that way (with no dealer markup); if you wanted a car sooner, you would have to get an optioned-up P85 (because they were going to make those first).

I really understand the frustration that you have had based on your experiences. To be fair, I would argue that the Ferrari attitude towards its customers hasn't really changed all that much since it's inception. My example here is the fact that Lamborghini's "origin story" is rooted in frustration with Ferrari.

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When I got my first Elise, there were a total of 5 in a 10 square mile radius that I knew of.

Again, the folks at the local gas station thought they were a pretty common sight.

I had a Pontiac Solstice Coupe. Rarer than the Exige in the US.

There were three in my neighborhood, one the same color as mine.

"Rare" is a universal measurement. "Common" is a local thing.
I would also point out that many of the commenters saying how common 100k+ vehicles are seem to be located in areas which have seen outsized economic growth over the past two decades (i.e. nobody's in here posting from economically distressed Appalachia).

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most of the wreck videos I have seen is on-power oversteer.
Ahem.

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Originally Posted by Butters View Post
This. I have never considered even getting caught dead in a Corvette. Then the C7 came around and it got me interested, but I never thought about leaving these pastures of small, compact foreign cars (Japanese and British, mostly). But with the C8... I'm now sitting squarely on the fence.
I'm with you on this one, and I think GM has been working hard to make the vehicle appeal to a younger market. The average age of a new-car buyer (emphasis on new, not used) was 61 years old in 2013 (though to be fair, the average age of new car buyers is currently ~53 years old). Those core Corvette buyers are nearing the end of their carbuying years very rapidly, and GM is going to lose a lot of sales if they don't start looking to younger demographics.

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I agree with some of the comments above. Until seeing the NSX in real space, on the road, pictures never did do it justice. I have yet to see a photo of an Evora that exemplifies how it looks in person. Some angles of the C8 look confused and busy in 2D but I will reserve judgment until seeing the actual car.

Every brand has it's compassionate followers who no matter what will remain ambassadors and remain loyal. That is true of Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari and especially Corvette who far and wide have the biggest fan base. The dilemma Lotus now faces is not just maintain their sales base but expand it. Actually they don't really have a sales base. The Evora platform is ten years old. It sorely needs to be replaced to retain any relevancy in the market. The "new" Evora GT, while a marginal improvement on the 400, is only a range extending band aid. Would I sell my Evora S for one? Doubtful. It's hard to justify the $60K+ upgrade. For less money, much less, you can now purchase a car that is faster, more comfortable, and more refined. Corvette has a superior DCT that Lotus does not offer. It's sills are lower and narrower and there's room to comfortably accommodate someone as tall as 6' 7" and 300 pounds. The Cayman GT4 takes the 718 platform into 997 GT3 territory plus Porsche has the Macan and Cayenne to fall back on for profitability.

So the jury is out where Lotus might be headed and, as suggested by Boxerman, there is no room for them to compete at the entry level. Corvette is going to have that covered. The only disadvantage is the badge - regardless of how well built it may be it's still a Chevy, but like it or not the mid engine supercar is now attainable to the proverbial Everyman and for about the price of an Evora GT without carbon package, you can buy the new GT4. The landscape has dramatically changed. It remains to be seen what niche Lotus will carve to be competitive and profitable and not lose their identity, but Lotus will never be able to compete on "value". It's been two years and Geely hasn't showed us where they are headed save a limited edition electric hypercar. "For the drivers"? Really? More like for the few narcissistic billionaire collectors. Now we are told Lotus is planning another announcement before the end of the year. We'll see. It's time to get the ball rolling.
You make a few assertions that I feel should be argued.

First, that the Evora platform is 10 years old. That is kind of a simplification - the chassis of the Evora 400 isn't really the same as the earlier models.

Further, I would argue that the Evija project likely has several goals that aren't directly about bringing out new models. 1. The free marketing and 2. the IP and R&D experience that comes from developing this kind of moonshot project.

There's the marketing angle: it will serve to bring Lotus back as a perceived performance leader (even if the vehicle is totally out of reach). Think of all the free publicity it will generate for them simply based around the interest in seeing the EV challenge Nurburgring lap records - the Veyron brought Bugatti back from being perceived as just another esoteric carmaker simply by being expensive and having a tremendous top speed. A huge number of people know what the Veyron is and approximately what it looks like - most have no idea about the EB110.

There's also the IP development angle: please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm very strongly under the impression that Lotus engineering (who did a ton of outsourced work in the industry) shrank quite a lot after Behar took the reins of the company. While they probably still hold quite a lot of IP, I'm willing to bet a lot of institutional knowledge was lost. Geely is likely also interested in pushing their EV design know-how given that China is one of the world's largest markets for EVs (partially due to huge government subsidies).

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post #113 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 05:50 AM
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Save the manual transmission!

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I would buy it if it ever comes with a manual transmission...
I am sure that the mid-engine choice and maybe the desire to offer this car at what is admittedly an astounding price point both had an impact on the decision to drop the manual transmission (having to develop a new manual and tool the plant for either / or transmission would have apparently been costly) but for me, general interest stopped as soon as I heard there would be no manual offered. Apparently only about 15% of Corvette drivers select a manual which was a little surprising to me (I recall the BMW E9X M3 take-up rate was much higher - around 44% in the US and Canada and 37% globally). Then again, I think there are a large number of "senior" owners of corvettes would would not want to row the gears so it is not shocking. I wonder how many manual Corvette drivers they will actually lose through this?

That Lotus still understands the very core of what enthusiasts want (so far) is why I bought an Evora 400 and why I am not even slightly disappointed in my choice. Do I wish the car was a little (and I mean little) faster, sure, but honestly, in terms of the ultimate driving experience, I feel that this is what the E400 proposition is and it delivers all over the place every day whether it is dynamics, suspension, steering feedback, responsiveness, or just the way you can trust it and push it so far. They also know that many enthusiasts still see a manual as a non-negotiable in terms of driving experience and so keep it on the menu.

I was surprised that there didn't seem to be more banter about this in general but maybe I am truly just one of a dying breed.

Still - save the manuals!!
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post #114 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:17 AM
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I am sure that the mid-engine choice and maybe the desire to offer this car at what is admittedly an astounding price point both had an impact on the decision to drop the manual transmission (having to develop a new manual and tool the plant for either / or transmission would have apparently been costly) but for me, general interest stopped as soon as I heard there would be no manual offered. Apparently only about 15% of Corvette drivers select a manual which was a little surprising to me (I recall the BMW E9X M3 take-up rate was much higher - around 44% in the US and Canada and 37% globally). Then again, I think there are a large number of "senior" owners of corvettes would would not want to row the gears so it is not shocking. I wonder how many manual Corvette drivers they will actually lose through this?

That Lotus still understands the very core of what enthusiasts want (so far) is why I bought an Evora 400 and why I am not even slightly disappointed in my choice. Do I wish the car was a little (and I mean little) faster, sure, but honestly, in terms of the ultimate driving experience, I feel that this is what the E400 proposition is and it delivers all over the place every day whether it is dynamics, suspension, steering feedback, responsiveness, or just the way you can trust it and push it so far. They also know that many enthusiasts still see a manual as a non-negotiable in terms of driving experience and so keep it on the menu.

I was surprised that there didn't seem to be more banter about this in general but maybe I am truly just one of a dying breed.

Still - save the manuals!!
A dual clutch IS a manual transmission. GM doesn't need to develop another new transmission, they just need to put a manual clutch and selector on the dual clutch. Porsche does this, so the excuse the GM gives is not valid.
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post #115 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:27 AM
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Corvette team is pretty good at listening to customer feedback. If they think there is demand to drive it, they will offer something.
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post #116 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:03 AM
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A dual clutch IS a manual transmission. GM doesn't need to develop another new transmission, they just need to put a manual clutch and selector on the dual clutch. Porsche does this, so the excuse the GM gives is not valid.
It's not exactly that simple. The Porsche 7 speed manual only shares about 1/3 of it's parts with the pdk. There is also an issue on the Corvette with where to fit the linkages for a manual. The engineers said the current configuration doesn't allow it. They could attempt to do shift and clutch by wire which could make it work but then it's really just paddles with extra steps.
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post #117 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:42 AM
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I like a stick, but when you have gears and clutch[es] and no squishy torque converter, you are picking nits on who is doing the shifting

Plus a stick would be measurably slower, not the performance edge I would be looking for.
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post #118 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 10:52 AM
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Corvette team is pretty good at listening to customer feedback. If they think there is demand to drive it, they will offer something.
I hope that Corvette will listen to the crowd that wants a real manual transmission!
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post #119 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 01:27 PM
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So Lotus can barely sell an Evora 400 as is; I can see this hurting the Evora even more and it's resale values. Lotus NEEDS to develop a smaller Evija look-alike, weighing in at 3k pounds, ditch the rear seats, with a manual, priced at 60k, and packing 430 HP to even start to compete with the Corvette.
Maybe, ahem, a new Esprit?
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post #120 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 02:52 PM
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I like a stick, but when you have gears and clutch[es] and no squishy torque converter, you are picking nits on who is doing the shifting

Plus a stick would be measurably slower, not the performance edge I would be looking for.
I like the feeling of clicking gears into place and feeling the clutch engaging gears. Nothing in the world feels like having 3 pedals.

I came from a manual Elise and manual Noble to an IPS Evora. It's easier on me for daily driving but you bet I miss it everyday.

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