New Corvette: 495hp mid-engine, Under $60k - Page 7 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #121 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Corvette team is pretty good at listening to customer feedback. If they think there is demand to drive it, they will offer something.
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It's not exactly that simple. The Porsche 7 speed manual only shares about 1/3 of it's parts with the pdk. There is also an issue on the Corvette with where to fit the linkages for a manual. The engineers said the current configuration doesn't allow it. They could attempt to do shift and clutch by wire which could make it work but then it's really just paddles with extra steps.
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I hope that Corvette will listen to the crowd that wants a real manual transmission!

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...dying-business

Straight from the lead engineer of the C8:

Quote:
When I asked Corvette lead engineer Tadge Juechter at the reveal of the 2020 Corvette on Thursday if there is any chance the manual will come back, he replied simply: “No.”

Juechter said a manual-equipped Corvette wouldn't sell well enough to make it worth a supplier’s effort to develop.

“We couldn’t find anybody honestly who’d be willing to do it. Because just like the automatic, the DCT, it would have to be a bespoke manual,” Juechter said. “It’s low volume, very expensive. The reason is it’s a low-volume industry. That industry is dying—building manual transmissions.”

Apparently, the take-rate for manuals in the Corvette has plummeted to about 15 percent now, according to Juechter.

“Every year it goes down, down, down, down,” he said.

...

“It’s 15 percent on cars like the Z06, which historically have been only a manual. And as soon as we offer the automatic, everybody buys the automatic,” Juechter said.

The future doesn’t look bright for the manual in the 'Vette or the industry, Juechter said.

“It’s a dying business. The people who make a living building manual transmissions, they see that it’s not a bright future for them,” he explained.

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post #122 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:58 PM
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https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...dying-business

Straight from the lead engineer of the C8:
There's a flipside to that. I bought a manual C7 Z51 because the automatic transmission had overheating issues on the track, and the manual was the only transmission recommended and/or durable enough for track use. Obviously the C8 transmission has yet to be tested. Tadge is the lead Corvette engineer I believe, not just the C8.

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post #123 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:33 PM
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It's not exactly that simple. The Porsche 7 speed manual only shares about 1/3 of it's parts with the pdk. There is also an issue on the Corvette with where to fit the linkages for a manual. The engineers said the current configuration doesn't allow it. They could attempt to do shift and clutch by wire which could make it work but then it's really just paddles with extra steps.
True, I oversimplified a bit. But even if many of the parts aren't exactly the same, the designs can be significantly similar to the point where full development costs are reduced significantly. I bet of the 2/3 parts on the Porsche that aren't shared most are probably just slightly different.

I've often wondered why manufacturers don't just plop an electronically connected clutch and shifter to a PDK car. It won't be as nice as the real mechanical feel, but it would retain the involvement. You could even have both a manual and auto modes on the same car where you can operate the clutch or have the car do it for you. Choose if you want to use the shifter/clutch or let the car take over. You get your choice of involved driving or track weapon.
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post #124 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 07:47 PM
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True, I oversimplified a bit. But even if many of the parts aren't exactly the same, the designs can be significantly similar to the point where full development costs are reduced significantly. I bet of the 2/3 parts on the Porsche that aren't shared most are probably just slightly different.

I've often wondered why manufacturers don't just plop an electronically connected clutch and shifter to a PDK car. It won't be as nice as the real mechanical feel, but it would retain the involvement. You could even have both a manual and auto modes on the same car where you can operate the clutch or have the car do it for you. Choose if you want to use the shifter/clutch or let the car take over. You get your choice of involved driving or track weapon.
I am not sure those that are upset over not having a manual will accept electronic clutch slave cylinders and electronic shifters. Will the car still not let you money shift? Will people believe they are still in control, many still do not like drive by wire throttle instead of a physical cable.
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post #125 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:24 PM
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I am not sure those that are upset over not having a manual will accept electronic clutch slave cylinders and electronic shifters. Will the car still not let you money shift? Will people believe they are still in control, many still do not like drive by wire throttle instead of a physical cable.
I agree and would be one of those that would complain. But it would be a compromise that manufacturers could very easily implement, especially in a situation where a manual transmission is incompatible or economically unfeasible for the manufacturer.
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post #126 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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True, I oversimplified a bit. But even if many of the parts aren't exactly the same, the designs can be significantly similar to the point where full development costs are reduced significantly. I bet of the 2/3 parts on the Porsche that aren't shared most are probably just slightly different.

I've often wondered why manufacturers don't just plop an electronically connected clutch and shifter to a PDK car. It won't be as nice as the real mechanical feel, but it would retain the involvement. You could even have both a manual and auto modes on the same car where you can operate the clutch or have the car do it for you. Choose if you want to use the shifter/clutch or let the car take over. You get your choice of involved driving or track weapon.
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I am not sure those that are upset over not having a manual will accept electronic clutch slave cylinders and electronic shifters. Will the car still not let you money shift? Will people believe they are still in control, many still do not like drive by wire throttle instead of a physical cable.
Literally this MT article:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/mid-...-shift-theory/

Quote:
The most controversial aspect of the just-revealed mid-engine C8 2020 Chevrolet Corvette is, without question, the lack of a manual transmission. A recent GM patent for an electronic clutch pedal, combined with manual shifter technology from the C7 Corvette, though, could be combined to create a futuristic electronically controlled manual shifter for the C8.

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post #127 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:06 PM
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Finally (hopefully)! I've been wondering and posting about this since they introduced PDK. I hope it finally happens. For example, here's my rumination in 2012.

986 Forum - for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners - View Single Post - The new Boxster - the triumph of technology over skill?

And one from 2011. See, I'm obsessed with it! Also note that I put a dig in by referencing Lotus, even before I owned one.

http://986forum.com/forums/251984-post15.html
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post #128 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 04:19 AM
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A manual is something that provides tactile interaction with the car. For many tactile interaction is a big part of the joy in a sports car, otherwise an amg merc does al the sped you need on road. Yet its also true that moderns, sportscars included have become increasingly synthesized. EPS is but one key example, its accurate but there is a complete filter between you and the wheels. Its also true that Ferrari and Lambo have been getting away without offering a manual and having eps for a decade. So if your "brand" has the right image you can sell your latest wonder car based on stats and sheer velocity.

Yet proche who intially followed the same eps no manual path saw that there was a significantly robust market for (good) manuals in the premium sportscar sector. We also see that a lot of demand comes from the USA not europe. This too was BMWs experince starting with the 10 cyl m5. I think in europe manuyls were the cheap option for their crapboxes, whereas in USA manuals were very often a performance option, so culturaly we view things differently.

Its also far easier to certify a paddle car these days, and easier still to offer just one transmission, [addles as they say is where the volume is. The question is whether forsaking 15% of the market, (probably the most passionate 15%) is a worthwhile strategy in the long run if in
theroy youre sellign cars based on driving excitement.

What we see is porche offers a mnaual on its most exciting to drive cars, as does BMW(m 2/3/4 series) and Aston too is offering a manul. I guess its both a sales thing, and in a way a marketign thing, offering a stick confers real sportscar status/legitimacy.

The C8 is a modern car, its unlikely to have many of the tactile feedbacks we love, so to me paddles just ft with it, and thats the way it is and the type fo machine it is.

I'm more interested to see if there is a more raw lighter version of the vette coming out. Or is it going to be like the C7, starting off heavy, and then then adding excess more hp to conteract the even greater weight that comes with the excess hp. In other words really just a fast Gt road car.

If Porche for one can offer a 3200lbs Gt3 to go with their 36000lbs Turbo can vette do the same.

Moderns do a lot of things well, can the vette really dance on track all day long in way we havent seen since the C6 z06 or even the c5 z06.
If it can then Ill forgive the no mnaual and any number of other faults that seem endemic to moderns. If it cant, then in my book ist just anotehr over fast cool looking road car, nice but not compelling. Course I'm part of a 15% minority.
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post #129 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 05:27 AM
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I guess I will have to go for a Evora 400 for a manual transmission
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post #130 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 05:37 AM
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I guess I will have to go for a Evora 400 for a manual transmission
. You mean an Evora GT or 718 GT4

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post #131 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 05:50 AM
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. You mean an Evora GT or 718 GT4
I actually had the chance to drive the Evora GTS (only 3 built)
Can't wait to try out the GT
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post #132 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 08:05 AM
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A manual is something that provides tactile interaction with the car. For many tactile interaction is a big part of the joy in a sports car, otherwise an amg merc does al the sped you need on road. Yet its also true that moderns, sportscars included have become increasingly synthesized. EPS is but one key example, its accurate but there is a complete filter between you and the wheels. Its also true that Ferrari and Lambo have been getting away without offering a manual and having eps for a decade. So if your "brand" has the right image you can sell your latest wonder car based on stats and sheer velocity.

Yet proche who intially followed the same eps no manual path saw that there was a significantly robust market for (good) manuals in the premium sportscar sector. We also see that a lot of demand comes from the USA not europe. This too was BMWs experince starting with the 10 cyl m5. I think in europe manuyls were the cheap option for their crapboxes, whereas in USA manuals were very often a performance option, so culturaly we view things differently.

Its also far easier to certify a paddle car these days, and easier still to offer just one transmission, [addles as they say is where the volume is. The question is whether forsaking 15% of the market, (probably the most passionate 15%) is a worthwhile strategy in the long run if in
theroy youre sellign cars based on driving excitement.

What we see is porche offers a mnaual on its most exciting to drive cars, as does BMW(m 2/3/4 series) and Aston too is offering a manul. I guess its both a sales thing, and in a way a marketign thing, offering a stick confers real sportscar status/legitimacy.

The C8 is a modern car, its unlikely to have many of the tactile feedbacks we love, so to me paddles just ft with it, and thats the way it is and the type fo machine it is.

I'm more interested to see if there is a more raw lighter version of the vette coming out. Or is it going to be like the C7, starting off heavy, and then then adding excess more hp to conteract the even greater weight that comes with the excess hp. In other words really just a fast Gt road car.

If Porche for one can offer a 3200lbs Gt3 to go with their 36000lbs Turbo can vette do the same.

Moderns do a lot of things well, can the vette really dance on track all day long in way we havent seen since the C6 z06 or even the c5 z06.
If it can then Ill forgive the no mnaual and any number of other faults that seem endemic to moderns. If it cant, then in my book ist just anotehr over fast cool looking road car, nice but not compelling. Course I'm part of a 15% minority.
Yep, Yep, Yep to all of the above. I LOVE a manual but there are a zillion smart reasons why it wasn't offered this time. I am glad the Torque Converter slush box is dead, if it took a custom dual-Clutch to do it, so much the better. If the true demand is out there, I could see a few years from now, the C8 team offering a Special Edition Grand Sport with manual as Porsche did with the 911R. This won't be a $60K car, it will be an $85K car. We'll see how pure the purists are if it hits them in the wallet.

Last, but not least, Torque is what is really tough on the gearbox vs horsepower. The GT3 etc don't have crazy torque (140lb-ft less than C8) so easier for them to do it. Not to mention they haven't had a driveline change in 60 years. Notice the 911 Turbos don't have a manual option.

If the tradeoff to get a mid-engine vette is to take a dual clutch instead of a manual, so be it. I would rather drive the Lotus or 911 manual anyway. You wait, if GM does a manual, the shifting will be a spongy mess anyway......
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post #133 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 04:24 PM
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If Porche for one can offer a 3200lbs Gt3 to go with their 36000lbs Turbo can vette do the same.
The GT3 starts at $143K+, well over twice the price of a C8. Perhaps if GM were going to charge $143K+ for a C8, they'd feel compelled to match the weight. Light, cheap, fast. Pick any two.

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post #134 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 05:44 AM
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The GT3 starts at $143K+, well over twice the price of a C8. Perhaps if GM were going to charge $143K+ for a C8, they'd feel compelled to match the weight. Light, cheap, fast. Pick any two.

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I think it would super-cool if GM offered their version of a GT3, which would be a GrandSport with bunch of carbon body panels and other bits to save weight and a small bump in power. I don't think they would as it is not their business model. But it seems the aftermarket will. Take 150lbs out and get it to 550HP NA, it would be a pretty special car.


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post #135 of 164 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 07:39 AM
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I think it would super-cool if GM offered their version of a GT3, which would be a GrandSport with bunch of carbon body panels and other bits to save weight and a small bump in power. I don't think they would as it is not their business model. But it seems the aftermarket will. Take 150lbs out and get it to 550HP NA, it would be a pretty special car.
It is what they offered with the C6 z06 before they just got lazy for the c7.

I think somewhere in your portfolio for a 2 short years you have to offer a Gt3 type car simply for the cred it bestows on all those overpowered Gt cars youre selling.

It dosent have to be a stick, just light enough and developed enough to really work on track.
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post #136 of 164 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 10:29 AM
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It is what they offered with the C6 z06 before they just got lazy for the c7.

I think somewhere in your portfolio for a 2 short years you have to offer a Gt3 type car simply for the cred it bestows on all those overpowered Gt cars youre selling.

It dosent have to be a stick, just light enough and developed enough to really work on track.
Its exactly what they did with the C6.
They knocked more than 150lbs off the base model to the Z...probably closer to 200-250lbs.
Yes, they got lazy with the c7.
Problem is the industry overall is moving towards more refinement.

Now most of the guys who buy the Z car are driver guys, the base model is for the masses.
I think the base model is too much of a "street car" for me but depending on which way chevy goes I may opt for the Z.

Im hoping the Z makes the car more raw, a little lighter, and is naturally aspirated.
Can easily make a 7L aluminum block with 600hp or more.
THAT I know I would buy.

Im still leaning toward something more raw, like a backdraft cobra.

The regular corvette guys are pining for the TT caddy engine or something and thats just not what Im looking for.
Ive heard some say they're afraid chevy will make it flat plane crank and it would add vibration, i say give me the flat plane crank and don't weight the crank like ford did to decrease vibes....Ill gladly take the vibes, the exhaust, the shaky idle and everything else to make it more raw.
Unfortunately cars like that are pretty much gone, at least at price ranges I could ever hope to afford.
Except kit cars. lol
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post #137 of 164 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 03:41 AM
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Its exactly what they did with the C6.
They knocked more than 150lbs off the base model to the Z...probably closer to 200-250lbs.
Yes, they got lazy with the c7.
Problem is the industry overall is moving towards more refinement.

Now most of the guys who buy the Z car are driver guys, the base model is for the masses.
I think the base model is too much of a "street car" for me but depending on which way chevy goes I may opt for the Z.

Im hoping the Z makes the car more raw, a little lighter, and is naturally aspirated.
Can easily make a 7L aluminum block with 600hp or more.
THAT I know I would buy.

Im still leaning toward something more raw, like a backdraft cobra.

The regular corvette guys are pining for the TT caddy engine or something and thats just not what Im looking for.
Ive heard some say they're afraid chevy will make it flat plane crank and it would add vibration, i say give me the flat plane crank and don't weight the crank like ford did to decrease vibes....Ill gladly take the vibes, the exhaust, the shaky idle and everything else to make it more raw.
Unfortunately cars like that are pretty much gone, at least at price ranges I could ever hope to afford.
Except kit cars. lol
For me the money car is 200lbs lighter with 600HP NA 8000+rpm redline. Unfortunately, I can't see anyway this could be done by GM given their stable of technologies. I think anything like an LS7 would not pass smog. We're stuck with either TT or SC for Z, I think. Seems like Heads, Cam, Headers in the arftermarket will get us to 550HP pretty easily.


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post #138 of 164 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 07:43 AM
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For me the money car is 200lbs lighter with 600HP NA 8000+rpm redline. Unfortunately, I can't see anyway this could be done by GM given their stable of technologies. I think anything like an LS7 would not pass smog. We're stuck with either TT or SC for Z, I think. Seems like Heads, Cam, Headers in the arftermarket will get us to 550HP pretty easily.
Oh I agree!
That 8k redline only happens with a FPC or some really fancy heads.
That would be very cool, not sure I could afford it, but very cool. lol
And get rid of the sound shielding and all the other stuff Im sure the base vette has to deaden the experience to appeal to the masses.
I doubt any of that will happen as they would have to R&D a whole new engine for just 1 car when they already have s/c and a tt already done or in the works.
Thats fine i guess, they have to make cars ppl will actually buy.

I don't daily my sports cars and enjoy a more visceral feel. Im already peeved there's no manual trans. Thats why I haven't pulled the trigger on a 4C.

That said, the corvette might be too much car at that price point to pass up.
I like the Evora 400 but want a removable roof and a 2 seater. Plus the cost is a little high for me on that.

Once I start thinking about cost and performance per dollar, even in the used market, I keep coming back to a vette or a shelby cobra. Never had a SC and always thought they were cool. Very visceral.
I love the Cayman/Boxsters too but a bit refined as well and pricey for what you get.
Im not Rockefeller so cost is a big consideration.
Lets see how this new vette drives and performs for real and everyone can go from there...
Who knows? We might not be that crazy about it and that would be that.
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post #139 of 164 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 09:41 AM
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>>>I like the Evora 400 but want a removable roof and a 2 seater. Plus the cost is a little high for me on that.

THIS. Sold the Elise and even though I have a Miata down in FLA, I'm going thru open-top withdrawal here. Have been looking for a 'bridge' car (holding out desperate hopes that 2020/2021 brings an Elise BACK to the US....even an opentop Evora would be a consideration)...and this new 'open top' Vette may be worth a 2-3 year adventure.

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post #140 of 164 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 09:51 AM
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Agree, in the past the base corvette is a street car more then a sports car. GM even stated it’s not a sports car, I can’t recall which auto magazine compared grandsport - zo6 to the race car, huge gap in the cars lap times.... which i feel is why the c8 is designed to carry two sets of golf clubs.... made for their average buyer who is probably 60+ yrs old, always wanted a vette and use it as a 100% street car

It’s also always been a bargain sports car, producing acceleration and lap times comparable to cars costing 2x+ its price which will continue with the c8. The bar for all vehicles is raised with every new generation and yea, it will be really interesting to see what they can do with the C8. To me it will still have some of the typical (and crappy) GM interior parts, design and layout with the typical kinda meh driving experience.

I do not think this will affect lotus or any other company any more then the c7 or c6 affected those companies.
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