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post #41 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 08:08 PM
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i get the feeling the same conversation was had on paper twenty years ago, comparing the 80s cars with the 60's...fuel injection probably pissed a lot of people off...no really, i wonder if twenty years from now, people are going to look back at cars with real steering wheels and controls and telepathically argue with each other about how progress has ruined the car...

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post #42 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XPcarguy View Post
The 987S and Cayman S as well as all the current 911s outperform the Elise out of the box. You can look at lap times which factor in acceleration but in terms of the 987S and Cayman S, they also do it in grip. Both cars match the Elise in lateral acceleration. But the Pcars do it with street tires compared to the Elise's R compounds.

The Elise is a wonderful car. It's beautiful, fun, and raw. Yeah, it performs at a pretty high level. But the little feelings you guys get driving one are classified under "intangibles" b/c there are a lot of equal and superior performing cars out there.
I think this thread is about no-BS raw sports cars which does not necessarily mean faster. P-cars are hardly raw. Performance is not in question as many car outperform the Lotus but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a car that is as much a part of the driver as the Lotus is. You are completely in command of a Lotus while you simply point and shoot in other cars.
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post #43 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by babak View Post
Have you thought going backwards?
Exactly what I was thinking as I read BM's post.

One of the first sports cars I ever drove was a Porsche Boxster S. The steering and gearbox blew me away. I stammered as I tried to fathom how people could call the car "entry level". If I only knew.

Since then, I've had the amazing privilege to drive all sorts of cool cars - mostly Ferraris - and refine my tastes. From 308s, 328s, 355s, 360s, a turbo Esprit, an NSX, 550s and a 575M, a 612, various Mondials, a Testarossa, a Noble, Mini Coopers (yes, Minis!), a modified Z06 and an Elise, the Elise brought me the most joy. The Testarossa, hands down, is the most demanding and amazing of the list above. I drove it a lot, too (then the chick who owned it took me for a ride and showed me how to really drive it). The Elise, while raw and incredible, is still modern when compared to some cars from the '80s. But, in my opinion, the Elise (or, I imagine, the Exige) is today's truest sports car.

So Babak's suggestion seems the most logical to me. Go backwards. Go back to a time when there were no Manettinos, no ASR, no power steering, no lifeless video game-like shift paddles, no buttery smooth manual gearboxes, no featherweight clutches, no functional air conditioning. Go back to a time when the only navigation you had was a ratty, outdated atlas shoved under the seat and the childhood knowledge that moss only grows on the north side of rocks and trees. Go get a four-valve, carburetted 308, or a widow maker Porsche; an X1/9, an MG Midget, an original Mini, a Fiat 500 - something that demands your attention from the moment you get in until well after you get out.

If the Elise isn't enough, get an Exige. If you still want more power without compromising that real sports car feel, I'd say get a Noble. But I think the Exige is probably the rawest thing you could get (outside of, probably, an Aerial Atom or a Caparo). Keep us posted on what you decide.
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post #44 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 10:28 PM
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Here's another vote for "going backwards." The most fun car I've ever driven (haven't driven an Elise yet ) was a 1964 Porsche 356. Manual steering, manual brakes, 85 or so horsepower, and I was grinning like an idiot the whole time.
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post #45 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-19-2007, 10:31 PM
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Yes I agree. I drove an '86 Porsche for 7 years. I had it modified by corner balancing, cambering and also adding a mass flow sensor kit, etc. This was truly a raw car and I drove it daily. Since then, I have driven a 993 S turbo body, 996 turbo and a Cayman S. By comparision, the lotus cars are truly a throw back to me...back to that '86 porsche of mine. But even better, given the mid engine and lower center of gravity. That is why I traded my Cayman S for an Elise and then later to an Exige.

I just got back from Russell Racing School at infineon Race Way. We drove formula open wheel cars for 3 days. That was an amazing experience! No ABS, power assist stearing and learning to brake and heal-to-toe was sweet. This made my exige fee tame. Track driving is the only way to go.

I guess the more you expose yourself to the higher levels of driving and what is truly demanded of track driving and racing, the more you become dis-enchanted with electronic assists and comfort.

Who knows, just my opinion and experience.

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post #46 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 04:56 AM
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Buy yourself a 550 spyder replica. The lotus feels like a benz compared to it. Stench of oil and gas, no windscreen to speak of, no top, no carpets, no power assist anything. Engine with webers that periodically catch fire when they backfire. 1200 lbs and 200hp if you choose your engine right.

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post #47 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VINSTA View Post
For 5 years prior to buying my Elise Sport, I was playing with a pristine 1976 Pontiac Trans Am with a 455, 4-speed. I had a great time with this car


Good for you! As for the rest of you, whatever brings you joy.
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post #48 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
....Go backwards. Go back to a time when there were no Manettinos, no ASR, no power steering, no lifeless video game-like shift paddles, no buttery smooth manual gearboxes, no featherweight clutches, no functional air conditioning. Go back to a time when the only navigation you had was a ratty, outdated atlas shoved under the seat and the childhood knowledge that moss only grows on the north side of rocks and trees. Go get a four-valve, carburetted 308, or a widow maker Porsche; an X1/9, an MG Midget, an original Mini, a Fiat 500 - something that demands your attention from the moment you get in until well after you get out....
If I were looking for someone to run an advertising campaign for sportscars this passage above would have you HIRED.

You had me at the "no lifeless video game-like shift paddles"!!! LOL!

Simply awesome and I'm stealing it for my signature. Thanks!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodler View Post
......Go backwards. Go back to a time when there were no Manettinos, no ASR, no power steering, no lifeless video game-like shift paddles, no buttery smooth manual gearboxes, no featherweight clutches, no functional air conditioning.....
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post #49 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 05:21 AM
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now that he has an elise. he is bored with it, and he has more of his parents money burning a hole in his pocket. yawn.

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post #50 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 05:26 AM
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I agree with PhlypSide. Well written Doodler!
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post #51 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 06:11 AM
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This thread is why I also keep one of these in my garage. Not immensely fast, but a joy to drive with enough creature comforts to make an all day trip comfortable. Manual steering, cranky gearchange, and a cammy engine that makes great sounds.
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post #52 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 06:27 AM
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This is an excellent thread. It's not about how fast you go but how it feels when you go fast. The guys that are fixated on horsepower, time from point A to point B just don't get it. I can't tell you how many times I've had passengers complain about the crappy radio, lack of carpeting, leather, butt warmers, etc. etc. Those people don't get it and aren't allowed to drive it.
I love every rattle, squeak, and header pop, the smell of unburnt fuel, chunked tires and rubber fragments on the fenders, the smell of scorched brake pads. (Tim Allen grunt). This is the best freaking sports car I've owned, paltry 190 hp and all!

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post #53 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 06:57 AM
 
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If you want a raw and pure sportscar then I would recommend a Caterham. The car does what you tell it to, no more and no less. Need to stop faster then just step on the pedal harder until the wheels lock-up, which you can see like an open wheel car. I drove mine to work this Am in full superlight mode with the Brooklands strap. Can't beat the early morning air in your face. Otherwise I suppose an old porsche or a testarossa would do the trick.
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post #54 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 07:06 AM
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I remember having similar thoughts concerning sports cars when I sold my pristine '73 911 coupe to "upgrade" to a really nice '82 911SC coupe. The newer car was faster, handled better, stopped better, and many of the little problems of the earlier car had been solved. Yet somehow, it just wasn't as much fun. The earlier car was several hundred pounds lighter, which really seemed to show up in the steering. The later car seemed like a chore to drive in comparison and I eventually sold it.

When I sold my Elan S4 to upgrade to the Elise, I worried that the same thing would happen. Fortunately, it seems that Lotus remembered the recipe for the secret sauce with the Elise. The steering is unlike anything modern I've driven, not counting the Seven (is it truly modern?). That part reminds me of the Elan, even though the performance envelope of the Elise is orders of magnitude greater. Still, the Elan had a nice balance to it and a rifle-bolt shifter that the Elise seems to lack. Regardless, I can live with it, as the safety, performance, and reliability of these cars make up for the difference.

Old stuff is simpler and can provide a more raw experience, but is it worth getting hauled off in a body bag when some cellphone-yapping soccer mom piles into you with her Suburban?
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post #55 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 07:24 AM
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Lambo's have never been & probably never wil be drivers cars. They weigh to much & to me seem to be built for looks & the awwww factor then actual driving experience. Thus, it isn't shocking that the supperl..... had nav & all of that, probably still weight 3600-3800 lbs!! Definantly NOT my idea of a sports car

As mentioned before the Noble's are suppose to be great. Many times they look kinda kit-car-ish to me though

It definantly sucks the direction automobiles have been going the last several years. Everything is bigger, wider, heavier with more electronic crap. Like the new 1 series BMW which I was kinda excited about especially since it had the turbo 6 as a option. Then I read it weighs about 3400 lbs which it more then a E36 weighed.

Have you considered the carerra GT?

I would mention the Mclaren F1 but holy crap those things are expensive to maintain

F40
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post #56 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 07:35 AM
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Buy a high milage 2000 MR2-Spyder for $9,000, swap in a built 2zz, brace it up, shed 200 lbs to bring it from 2200 lbs to 2000 lbs, slap on coilovers, boost it with a GT28R+ series turbo to it's peak flow capacity (16-17 psi) to have a quick spooling 400 whp beast, and enjoy a total track beast that's still a Toyota, steel framed, safer, and more street friendly. Just like this guy's build:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251118

Quote:
Originally Posted by badceli
Here is what I have so far....a bone stock 2001 MR2 Spyder....bought June 14th 2007....



Boosted2.0 will be the one building the motor....

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Originally Posted by badceli
This list isn't complete yet, but I'll upate it later....

Spyder............................................ ................$12,300

Parts from GT-S:................................................ $9,000
2ZZ
Darton Sleeves
8.8:1 Wiseco Pistons
Crower Rods
ARP Main Stud Kit
255 lph Fuel Pump
AEM Wideband UEGO Gauge w/ Bosch O2 Sensor
6 Speed Tranny
RPS Billet Flywheel
Quaife Helical Limited Slip Differential

Hass Turbo kit:.............................................. .....$3,000
Hass-TriY Ceramic Coated Manifold
Garrett GT2871R
K&N Filter
Precision Intercooler
Downpipe
630CC Injectors
Bosch BOV

RPS Max Street Clutch........................................$325
Piper Camshafts......................................... ........$949
ARP Main Stud Kit............................................... $105
ARP Header Stud Kit............................................$70
MWR Valve Spring Kit..........................................$259
MWR Valve Set............................................... ...$349
Moroso Oil Pan............................................... ....$499
MWR Rod Bearings.......................................... ....$105
MWR Main Bearings.......................................... ....$85
Extended Push Rod............................................... $24
Circuitworx Oil Pump Gears....................................$219
TRD Thermostat........................................ ...........$79
Water Pump.............................................. ..........$60
Swap Kit............................................... ..............$500
New Hoses............................................. .............$100
Overhaul Gasket Kit............................................... $110
W/I and Safeinjection..................................... .......$407
MWR Oil Cooler............................................ .........$375
AEM FPR............................................... ...............$179
MWR Fuel Return System........................................$200
BC RAM Coilovers 6k/8k..........................................$1,150
Rings............................................. .....................$100
Resurface Flywheel.......................................... ......$125
AEM EMS............................................... ..............$1,495
AEM Harness kit............................................... .....$55
TiC/Spiegler SS Brake Lines.....................................$165
TRD Quick Shifter........................................... .......$198
Speed Source Shifter Bushings.................................$26
Speed Source Braided Clutch Line.............................$55
3.0 Stage III Bracing........................................... ...$1,610
Motegi Traklite 17X7 +42 & 17X8 +42........................$1,120
Goodyear Eagle 215/40/17 & 245/35/17.....................$612

Total so far............................................... .....$36,010

Things I still need to buy or pay for:

Port & Polished Head.............................................. .?
2ZZ Swap.............................................. ...............?
Motor rebuild........................................... ..............?
Ceramic coating on pistons, valves and head...............?
Dry film lubricant on pistons and bearings....................?
Oil shedding coating on crank and rods.......................?
Custom Intake Manifold.......................................... ..?
Ceramic coating on turbine.......................................?
Exhaust........................................... .....................?
Seats............................................. ......................?
AEM Gauges............................................ ...............?
By the time he's done with this build, he'll have supercar performance for less than the price of a Lotus (2000 +/- lbs / 400 whp = 5.0 lbs/whp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post
Maybe you should put a disclaimer in your sig saying that you don't have a Lotus nor have tried any of the products you are constantly posting about.
Old: 2003 Toyota Celica GT-S, 6 Speed Manual, Carbon Blue...RIP <=(
NEW: 2000 Toyota MR2-Spyder, 2ZZ-GE + 6 Speed Swap, Solar Yellow
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post #57 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 07:59 AM
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now that he has an elise. he is bored with it, and he has more of his parents money burning a hole in his pocket. yawn.
ouch , someone had to say it, though i did think the exact same thing.
this is why parents should make thier kids earn luxuries, then children appreciate them more when its their work that paid for them.
"dad, can you buy me the lambo i just test drove?"
when I was 19 and in college i drove a 1976 toyota celica that i earned the $ to pay for. it was $2K and got me where i needed to go. I still have fond memories of that car.
My dad did me a big favor making me pay for things when i was young, he had the means to buy stuff, but taught me how to be a responsible person for the rest of my life by making me "earn my keep".
This was likely IMO the best thing a father could teach a son,..............the value of hard work, and money.

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post #58 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 08:14 AM
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Give me till May and i'll tell you my vote on an 87 924S.

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As for the rest of you, whatever brings you joy.
I think Moto's got it right. The answer will not be the same for everyone. Some people will drive a car with power steering, sat-nav, good AC, heated seats, etc and claim it to be the best car they have every driven, best feel, best handling and so on. Others aren't happy until they literally have a big go-kart. I think it all comes down to whatever puts the biggest smile on your face, and you may just have to find it for yourself.
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post #59 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 08:34 AM
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We have lots of young car enthusiasts who contribute here. They bring a level of enthusiasm and a perspective that I welcome.

Weren't most of us car nuts when we were younger? How cool it would have been to have a forum like this to discuss cars and talk to guys who really know them and have been there.

Sure, most of us are old enough to have learned a thing or two about life. But if we judge these young men here as unworthy of experiencing these automobiles because of their their age, then how are we benefitting them?
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post #60 of 113 (permalink) Old 10-20-2007, 08:49 AM
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What is the best sportscar? What IS a sports car? What is better, a heavier car with a lot more power or a lighter car with less power? The best street car? The best track car? On and on and on..........

There is no real correct answer to any of these questions. They are all subjective. They have been debated for many years and will be debated for as long as we live. This is a Lotus forum, most people here are predjudiced towards the Lotus.....makes perfect sense. The less weight the better. I imagine if you went to a Vette or Viper forum they would say 'the more power the better'.

An easier question to answer is 'What is the best car FOR ME?' Want more weight and more power? Buy one. It's what you want and makes you happy. Less weight and less power? Buy one. What is most important TO YOU? Weight, power, appearance, interior, ability to afford...get what is the best car FOR YOU.

Here are 2 choices.....Car A.....you have the ability to drive it at 100% and you are turning lap times of 1:30. Car B...you only have the ability to drive it at 80%, but it's a higher performance car and your lap times are 1:25. Which car do you buy? Once again, there is no right answer. My personal choice would be Car A.

As many of you know, I recently sold my Elise and bought a 1996 Porsche 993 Twin Turbo. This is the best car FOR ME. Do I own the best car in the world? No. But it's the best car FOR ME. Most every car I've ever owned, I knew I would eventually sell. I will own this car until I wreck it or win the lottery.

So debate away...you will never come up with a 'right' answer...but have fun trying.

BTW, these are my 'roots'.....this is my father-
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