Why SUV's are the new go to vehicle. - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Cool Why SUV's are the new go to vehicle.

Let's think about a 1990 Buick Park Avenue, a Ford Crown Victoria, even a BMW sedan. Where was the H point??? Think of all the sedans trying to be sports cars with 4 doors in the year 2018. The H point is lower (IMHO). As the population ages, that is a bigger issue. As the obesity rates increase, that is a MAJOR issue. Back 20 years ago, the Jaguar XJ's were beautiful vehicles but one of the biggest reasons people did not buy them was they were hard to get in and out of. Forget the reliability comments please. Sedans had big trunks and were the best riding vehicles. 4 door sedans were people haulers. True sports cars had 2 doors. Again forget that 4 door coupe crap the Germans have screwed terminology with. I throw a bunch of fuel on the fire for fodder.

Why should I waste my time with a 4 door sports sedan for the 2 of us?? Thus the Miata and Evora.

Why should I waste my time with a 4 door sedan when a 4 door SUV is easy for my older folks to enter and exit while I haul all of their crap around. Why drive through slop for 300 miles with the stuff landing on your windshield when you can sit higher?
With an SUV you always have the ability to move, pickup, haul, etc STUFF. Dump run...., pick up 4 tires and 20 gallons of gas cans for track....on a rainy day.
Why pick on the SUV when the REAL waste of size and girth is the pickup truck used for a Daily driver? At 5-6000 lbs need I say more here. TV's don't like being driven home in the rain. Neither does the Costco run. The typical mid sized SUV is downright efficient in comparison.
Wagons are nice but all we had left in the US were some seasickness inducing Buick Estate Wagons and, big deal,the BMW and Mercedes which were basically half the size and twice the price of the Buick? Remember, size once did matter.
I replaced my Jaguar luxury with a Range Rover Sport because the Jag would get brutalized in the winter. Seats are incredible in both but esp in the RRS.. My Alfa Romeo can easily outhandle most sedans from 10 years ago and is plenty quick too.

Strangely enough, the auto industry , IMHO, has sabotaged the sedans they try to make exactly by making sedans longer, lower, wider like a sports car). Not everyone fits well in that body style. The Lexus RX350, I know really boring choice, is the 21st century Frod Crown Vic or Mercury fill in the blank. They have gone from ugly boxes to (See Stelvio pics) some that are even better looking than their sedan counterparts. Not my words, critics saying this stuff.
Many folks wanted an Elise, ordered one....only to find out they DID NOT FIT. Evora isn't exactly going to fit your typical 5'8 to 6-62 overweight American either. You know the 225-275 pounders that only thinks he's a few pounds overweight. Sad truth. They don't even fit in a lot of the sedans out there!! Thus the SUV ....take it from here folks
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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-11-2018, 01:57 PM
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Evora isn't exactly going to fit your typical 5'8 to 6-62 overweight American either. You know the 225-275 pounders that only thinks he's a few pounds overweight. Sad truth. They don't even fit in a lot of the sedans out there!! Thus the SUV ....take it from here folks
I'm 5'10" @225 lbs and I fit like the Evora was built for me... Oh yeah, I have a 32" waist I do get what you mean, the other night I had an awkward moment because my friend's wife wanted to go for a ride, and she's a bit overweight, especially in the rear, I didn't want her to damage my seat bolsters, so I had to tell her she couldn't go.

Back on topic, I think you are pretty much right on with your assessment. Another thing I hear often is that people like to be higher off the ground, and in a larger vehicle because all of the other cars on the road are higher and larger, and getting worse every year. I think as everything gets bigger every year it's like an arms race. Do you remember the first generation Geo Metro? What a fantastic little car that was, hatch back, 3 cyl, 50 MPG, but it'd be suicide to drive one now with the behemoths that have become of the average vehicle on the road.
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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 04:19 AM
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I use a SUV (Mercedes GLK, which is like the greatest bargain ever for mid-range luxury-beater SUVs) as a daily driver because there's so much stuff I need to do that isn't car friendly. Hauling kayaks is easy with the roof rack, taking the dogs to the beach only requires an old blanket and flipping the seats down, and the visibility is so much better than in a car. Yeah it's boring, but it's meant to be a utility vehicle, and for that it's great.

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I'm 5'10" @225 lbs and I fit like the Evora was built for me... Oh yeah, I have a 32" waist I do get what you mean, the other night I had an awkward moment because my friend's wife wanted to go for a ride, and she's a bit overweight, especially in the rear, I didn't want her to damage my seat bolsters, so I had to tell her she couldn't go.
I'm a bit of a lardass at 185 pounds and 5'8", but I feel very comfortable in my '14 Evora. One of my friends is probably 275'ish - not morbidly obese, but built more like one of those "world's strongest man" competition guys - he was able to fit just fine, and it gave him plenty of leg room as well.

Several of my coworkers have asked to go for a ride, but one is a ~300 pound 5'4 woman and there's no way she'll fit in there. Now I feel like I have to say "no" to everyone and get labeled as a d*ck for not giving out rides.
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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 04:26 AM
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- People are generally getting bigger
- People naturally feel safer in a larger vehicle (especially if every second vehicle is an SUV the size of a house)
- People want to keep up with the Jones'
- More people can fit more comfortably in an SUV vs a car, so family/friend outings are more frequent
- Better vantage point for driving
- SUV's feel more like an extension of a person's home than a car

And the additional cost of tires, brakes, insurance, and gas isn't enough to deter them.

I hate to admit it, but I prefer my wife's 2015 RDX to my 2007 TL (they are the same size inside), and will probably end up with one as my daily.

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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 05:16 AM
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I’m 6’1” 230 and I found the Evora fits perfect. Entry is relatively easy but getting out takes a bit of work in my garage since the doors don’t open fully in my garage. Anywhere else, no problem. My DD is a Chevy Trailblazer that I’ve babied for many years and miles.

I’ve read that Lotus has an SUV on the horizon and I’m curious to see if it comes to fruition as that would be interesting as a DD
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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 05:39 AM
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The only odd thing is that manufacturers keep reducing the utility. In their quest for (not sure which, and maybe all) sportiness, design, fuel efficiency, the rear hatch area continues to get smaller and more inclined, greatly reducing the actual cargo area. I was going to purchase a Velar, but ended up with a Discovery sport because the cargo area of the Velar is practically useless; they measure load length at the floor, which I understand, but the rear seat headrests are practically against the rear hatch glass, so skis are fine, but no boxes. Same with Volvo SUVs, open the hatch and note how much space, height and width is lost to body design. And that goes double for cars like the BMW X6 and MB GLC and GLE coupes. The Urus fits here too, but I assume the intent here isn't utility at all, but seat height, exclusivity, etc. I miss the old boxy SUVs that could actually carry something taller than 20 inches.
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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 05:52 AM
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I get the SUV “thing” but as someone who’s DD gets 27-30K stacked on it annually I need and want something with high MPG. My 2008 Civic sedan that I brought new now has 279K on it and its replacement next spring is probably going to be another Civic sedan which advertises 42 MPG highway.

So while I’d love to get the CX-5 next, SUV type of MPG will be a lot more $ over the life of the vehicle.
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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 06:57 AM
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Americans as a whole tend to define practicality as "more capable than you'll ever need" so that they are never inconvenienced. A more European approach defines practicality as "no more than you need". I, and most Lotus owners probably, align with that latter definition. I would rather rent a truck a couple times per year since it feels obscene to use 3 tons of metal to transport my 160lb self to work every day. Plus with Amazon revolutionizing online shopping and shipping, my wife and I just buy big things online and have them brought to the house.
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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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See C YOW5, we need to get past the 3 ton thing...Obsolete. My Stelvio is 4037 lbs and therefore is lighter than a great many esp the german tanks sedans on the road. I have already clocked out 30mpg on a few trips at 75-80 mph so it gets as good if not better mileage...

So you waste precious fuel by having huge delivery trucks come to your house all the time......a bit ironic. Don't you think its time to retire the lots of trouble monikor?? Disrespectful to the brand you you.

That sloped rear window on Stelvio is countered by longer floor length. I believe there are aero advantages to not having all that negative pressure in the rear of a straight walled old school SUV. Even big rigs are using aero devices on back of loads.

Good discussion! I'd love to hear more about why sedans are a failing design. Designers seem to have missed something here???

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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 07:50 AM
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People like a slightly higher vantage point than what sedans offer. Crossover's are the best of SUV and Sedan together. I hope whatever Lotus releases is more on the crossover styling than the SUV style. The MB GL* Coupes just look amazing as does the X6. I don't care if there's a little less room. Style first!

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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 07:51 AM
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'Bigger vehicles are safer', I've heard that from my parents since the '60s. My Dad had a Rover 2000 which my Mother did not like ,'Its not safe'. Nothing like parking a 1971 Mercury Montcalm in an underground parking space.

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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 07:57 AM
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See C YOW5, we need to get past the 3 ton thing...Obsolete. My Stelvio is 4037 lbs and therefore is lighter than a great many esp the german tanks sedans on the road. I have already clocked out 30mpg on a few trips at 75-80 mph so it gets as good if not better mileage...

So you waste precious fuel by having huge delivery trucks come to your house all the time......a bit ironic. Don't you think its time to retire the lots of trouble monikor?? Disrespectful to the brand you you.
The three ton reference was directed at trucks - a Tundra is up to 5900lbs, an F150 is over 5,000, a ram is over 5,000lbs, etc. I just checked all three of these as well. Your Stelvio may be god's gift to mankind, but mankind ain't driving it.

The delivery trucks aren't only going to my house. For them to deliver along a route efficiently wastes less gas than each individual customer going to the store and back. Why would all of my neighbors and I go to the same store in our separate cars when the store can make one trip to all of us?

And seriously? My car has earned the moniker. Elise radiators, cam wiping, oil cooler recall, stuck throttle, blown fuses from being exposed to the elements, should I keep going? Oh, and it is under 50,000mi.

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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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The three ton reference was directed at trucks - a Tundra is up to 5900lbs, an F150 is over 5,000, a ram is over 5,000lbs, etc. I just checked all three of these as well. Your Stelvio may be god's gift to mankind, but mankind ain't driving it.

The delivery trucks aren't only going to my house. For them to deliver along a route efficiently wastes less gas than each individual customer going to the store and back. Why would all of my neighbors and I go to the same store in our separate cars when the store can make one trip to all of us?

And seriously? My car has earned the moniker. Elise radiators, cam wiping, oil cooler recall, stuck throttle, blown fuses from being exposed to the elements, should I keep going? Oh, and it is under 50,000mi.
Say pickup trucks and start a thread about those beasts please. We agree here! I do my errands in a preconceived order to be efficient FYI. Call me old school but sometimes you want to feel what you are going to buy. Look I was just busting and I appreciate the mankind comment. Radiators from being old, cam wiping sucks but is quite easy to replace, oil coolers didn't cost you a penny unless you had a fail but even then, Lotus covered most of those. A garage is an important thing in life unless Europeans don't need those either hehe.
My point about the Stelvio, please go drive one, it may change your perception based on fact, is Lotus better use that philosophy in their SUV design. Relatively speaking, it is lighter, more agile, quicker tan most all other SUV's out there and puts a hurt on Macan as well. Hell it puts ahurt on many "performance" sedans. They managed style and useful interior space without the uselessness of the X6 IMHO

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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 08:30 AM
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Say pickup trucks and start a thread about those beasts please. We agree here! I do my errands in a preconceived order to be efficient FYI. Call me old school but sometimes you want to feel what you are going to buy. Look I was just busting and I appreciate the mankind comment. Radiators from being old, cam wiping sucks but is quite easy to replace, oil coolers didn't cost you a penny unless you had a fail but even then, Lotus covered most of those. A garage is an important thing in life unless Europeans don't need those either hehe.
My point about the Stelvio, please go drive one, it may change your perception based on fact, is Lotus better use that philosophy in their SUV design. Relatively speaking, it is lighter, more agile, quicker tan most all other SUV's out there and puts a hurt on Macan as well. Hell it puts ahurt on many "performance" sedans. They managed style and useful interior space without the uselessness of the X6 IMHO
I don't mind well-intended ball-busting, but you came off far more brash than it sounds like you intended. I think we are largely on the same page now though. The biggest area I think we disagree is your assumption of how I perceive crossovers. I see them as far more closely related to big sedans than a true SUV which, being a traditionalist, I define as a two-box on a frame. Unibody=car in my mind. I am not against the Stelvio at all, and I considered an Evoque for my wife (same category). I think the true SUVs are nearly extinct (as per my definition), and the lines between a sedan and a crossover are blurring. Compare a full-size sedan to a small crossover and you'll find the sedan far more utilitarian, even in regards to towing.
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 09:20 AM
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I really like our SUV and owning one. We have owned several makes over the years as family haulers. Ford Exploders (2 of them both built on the F150 platform), Lexus RX400h etc. They do have their place.

However....and people always look at me funny when I say this. One of my fav "haulers" we had before the MDX was my wife's 2011 Dodge caravan!! You want to talk about space and utility, that thing was the sh!t and I loved it! With all rear seats being able to store flat in the floor..it transformed it into a utility van with the same cargo space as a truck. Ugly as sin, boring to drive....you don't look cool at all but loved the space and practicality. I'm off to start a minivan thread....kidding.

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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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F 150 = Expedition
Ranger = Explorer. Just a smaller detail. No doubt the Caravan is probably the most practical vehicle ever made. But...I remember having to hustle some place years back in the father in Laws. Handling was so MINIMAL esp on a damp road, even with new tires, that I was surprised just how badly they handled. I am sure they have greatly improve now that you don't sit close to even with the engine.
C5... yup we agree even with definition. Weight is the biggest enemy as the center of gravity is so much lower now except for roof height. 4wd was a weight beast and the new AWD systems except for rocking crawling are vastly superior to anything available even 10 years ago. Especially with a 100% rear bias except when called on!!! Haldex type drivetrains may be fun for the swedish flick but understeer ruins all the fun. Sorry Audi

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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 12:38 PM
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...Plus with Amazon revolutionizing online shopping and shipping, my wife and I just buy big things online and have them brought to the house.
And who deals with all the Amazon boxes? One of the deciding factors in whether to own an SUV, IMHO, is whether or not your town has curbside trash and recycling pickup. Most people who have to haul their trash to the dump or other facility every week aren't going to throw those bags on the leather back seat of a luxury sedan.

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People like a slightly higher vantage point than what sedans offer. Crossover's are the best of SUV and Sedan together. I hope whatever Lotus releases is more on the crossover styling than the SUV style. The MB GL* Coupes just look amazing as does the X6. I don't care if there's a little less room. Style first!
Again IMHO, crossovers completely lack the best features of an SUV. Not suitable for driving in deep snow or water, nowhere near as much cargo space, minimal towing capacity, pitiful roof racks, none of the stuff that SUV's offer. And I'm quite sure that Lotus will be building CUV's, not SUV's anyway.

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See C YOW5, we need to get past the 3 ton thing...Obsolete. My Stelvio is 4037 lbs and therefore is lighter than a great many esp the german tanks sedans on the road. I have already clocked out 30mpg on a few trips at 75-80 mph so it gets as good if not better mileage...

That sloped rear window on Stelvio is countered by longer floor length. I believe there are aero advantages to not having all that negative pressure in the rear of a straight walled old school SUV. Even big rigs are using aero devices on back of loads.

Good discussion! I'd love to hear more about why sedans are a failing design. Designers seem to have missed something here???
Holy moly, brg, that Stelvio weighs almost as much as my Xterra.

Sedans are failing because minivans transitioned to SUV's with third row seating as the vehicle of choice for soccer moms, and because SUV's/CUV's have more room for the stuff purchased in a consumerist society, and because Hollywood and Madison Avenue made SUV's look sexier.

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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 01:47 PM
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I love my SUV. I use it for just about everything.. I understand pick-up trucks were originally for famers and construction, et al. I pulled into Shop Rite the other day, and this small woman in her 40's was driving a Ford super duty and the thing was HUGE. It made my SUV look like a tonka toy SUV. I guess, many people get these types of vehicles to stand out, or look at me. Not sure. As to the obesity issue, well, that's because most people do not cook their own food and eat out every single day. In addition, they do not exercise. They have a routine. Get up, go to McDonalds before work, eat fast food for lunch, go home, order take out, veg out in front of the tv, go to sleep, repeat. It just goes back to priorities and ease of use in life. Most people now are LAZY. Why cook when I can order out instead? Why exercise when I can watch TV instead? Life has become too convenience nowadays and people want instant gratification. Sadly, this comes at a cost. It doesn't only cost them and their families, it costs society in terms of more wear and tear on the roads and medical bills.

We, as a society, need a reboot and get back to basics.
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 03:06 PM
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I don't mind well-intended ball-busting, but you came off far more brash than it sounds like you intended. I think we are largely on the same page now though. The biggest area I think we disagree is your assumption of how I perceive crossovers. I see them as far more closely related to big sedans than a true SUV which, being a traditionalist, I define as a two-box on a frame. Unibody=car in my mind. I am not against the Stelvio at all, and I considered an Evoque for my wife (same category). I think the true SUVs are nearly extinct (as per my definition), and the lines between a sedan and a crossover are blurring. Compare a full-size sedan to a small crossover and you'll find the sedan far more utilitarian, even in regards to towing.
Ah, I feel like I'm at home on this forum again. Two persons enjoying back-and-forth banter without hurling insults and polluting a thread. Thanks.

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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 05:00 PM
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SUVs and such don’t clutter up the driveway so much as getting various vehicles for various purposes. And eliminates the “what to drive today?” thing.

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