Dual oil cooler, answer to overcooling - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:21 PM Thread Starter
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From my 32 years of Lotus ownership I will tell you that half the people will never do the Laminova mod, it will be too expensive, too difficult or too un-original.

There is nothing wrong with the Laminova, and much right, but this is a simpler and cheaper solution. It neither adds nor subtracts any parts so will do little offense to the originality police.

It is not a half measure, but IMO a better execution of the original engineering
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post #22 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:32 PM
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From my 32 years of Lotus ownership I will tell you that half the people will never do the Laminova mod, it will be too expensive, too difficult or too un-original.

There is nothing wrong with the Laminova, and much right, but this is a simpler and cheaper solution. It neither adds nor subtracts any parts so will do little offense to the originality police.

It is not a half measure, but IMO a better execution of the original engineering
The Laminova solution has many positives IMHO:

Less weight, which is hard to do in a Lotus. Around 28 pounds.

Optimum oil temperature is reached quickly.

Higher oil pressure.

More consistent oil temperatures.

When you change the oil you change all of the oil, not a portion of it.

Cabin temperatures are reduced (no oil lines in the side sills).

Eliminates the possibility of oil leaks from the oil cooler connections (which have killed some engines).


To each his own.

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post #23 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:37 PM
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Not sure why this has to be more about the method than the results. Someone made a change that addressed a specific problem, and posted some good results and the conditions under which they occurred. Thanks!

I don't think you can say for certain it will take longer to stabilize when the car is moving, that really needs to be tested. unless you are coasting downhill for 20 minutes, a moving car means an engine producing more heat than when it is just idling.

"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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post #24 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 01:55 PM
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Not sure why this has to be more about the method than the results. Someone made a change that addressed a specific problem, and posted some good results and the conditions under which they occurred. Thanks!
I don't think that this is about the method versus the results. There is always more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

I didn't introduce the Laminova solution to this thread. That being said I feel there are positive aspects, and negative (cost), as EricH already mentioned. I also would like to hear about anyone with a 2008+ radiator that failed, as if the 2008+ radiator is more robust, one could possibly do a Laminova solution for considerably less money.

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post #25 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 08:22 PM
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The problem .. in my experience .. with the Laminova is that you have no control with it.
With a Rad you can partially or fully cover it up if the oil is to cool on a cold day for example... so a certain amount of tuning is available.

You can get water restrictor plates for the Lams .. but they may impact on Engine water temp.
Restrictors of any kind in a PRIMARY circuit is NEVER a good idea...while a restrictor to a mechanical oil pressure gauge is a good idea.

The control of oil temperature is gotten from the engine thermostat and sizing of the heat exchanger...the thermostat controls the system temperature and the sizing of the heat exchanger "controls" the oil temperature. Similar to turbochargers and superchargers, the Laminova heat exchanger needs to be sized correctly for your application. Laminova builds 3 different sizes of heat exchangers. There are posts on here where guys just blindly install the biggest one! "Oh, I'm Ricky Racer and I NEED the biggest one!" Wrong! The middle size one has just about twice the cooling capacity of the OEM twin oil cooler setup! Why would you ever want to go larger than that? The Laminova setup is smaller, lighter, simpler (no need for oil thermostat or running of oil lines all around your car), safer (by location) and significantly less restriction on your oil system than the OEM setup...~30-feet less oil lines!

There are just too many pluses with the Laminova heat exchanger to ignore it and not use. Just like air cooled engines have gone away to water cooling, even on motorcycles. Why are you stuck on air cooling your oil? Water cool your oil with a Laminova.

Yikes! I sound like a commercial for Laminova...or a cheer leader...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #26 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 09:07 PM
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Similar to turbochargers and superchargers, the Laminova heat exchanger needs to be sized correctly for your application. Laminova builds 3 different sizes of heat exchangers. There are posts on here where guys just blindly install the biggest one! "Oh, I'm Ricky Racer and I NEED the biggest one!" Wrong! The middle size one has just about twice the cooling capacity of the OEM twin oil cooler setup! Why would you ever want to go larger than that?
As one of two local users (that I know of) that have the same Laminova setup, I can say they were designed by professional engineers who have extensive experience with Lotus racing platforms. This isn't your first post with regards to the biggest core being used, but with all due respect, I prefer to side with experienced engineers who have formidable knowledge and expertise.

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post #27 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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What would be interesting to see is a similar data set for the Laminova.

With enough data, one eventually gets information.

What occurs to me upon looking at the Laminova setup is that running on the radiator hose means that you will get limited oil warming prior to the thermostat opening, which is when you would like it.

Similarly 'higher oil pressure' is a claim without numbers, it would be interesting to see some data on that. Not doubting it, as most oil cooler installations result in some parasitic oil pressure loss. Quantifying it would be interesting.

Anyone with a Laminova setup and an oil temp ga could do it idling in their garage in less than an hour[don't forget to crack the door, we don't want to get the data from your wife]


I will make another data run revving the engine somewhat after the coolant temp ga registers but before oil is hot enough to crack the thermostat, to see how much flow looks like it goes though under higher pressure.

Then I am going to move the temp sender to its permanent location on the sandwich plate. I did not want to do that before I took before and after since the stock plate has no provision for a sender. I anticipate the temp there to move faster than the pan gauge and be more accurate than the non contact thermometer. I was interested to see the highest oil temp readings came from measuring the fins of the oil cooler.


Here is a graph with the oil pressure included, note how the oil pressure drops sooner and it looks like the 150F is the number that brings it to its lowest idle level.
It also shows the gauge readings
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Last edited by exigegus; 01-02-2017 at 06:27 AM.
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post #28 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
So in order from cheap and least desirable to most expensive and most desirable...
I would also like to suggest this option:

0.5) Bypass front oil cooler circuit altogether, by disconnecting and capping front lines, and fitting U-shaped line between sandwich plate feeds.

I could have sworn someone tried this before, but I can't find the thread right now. I believe this is also closer to be OEM Toyota install in the Celica/Matrix?

And obviously, this is *not* for track use, as you lose all the additional cooling capacity. As has been suggested before, the engineers must've had something in mind when they did the original cooling circuit design.

because racecar

Last edited by Turbopun; 01-02-2017 at 06:53 AM. Reason: more x2
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post #29 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 06:46 AM
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Don't want to high-jack the thread, but I'm about to install a Laminova in my Exige and pull out the oil coolers. Aside from a more efficient radiator, what additional upgrades does the coolant system need to keep pace? I planned to splice it in on the passenger side return pipe so I'm only running minimal -AN lines back to the sandwich plate.
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post #30 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 06:49 AM
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Similarly 'higher oil pressure' is a claim without numbers, it would be interesting to see some data on that. Not doubting it, as most oil cooler installations result in some parasitic oil pressure loss. Quantifying it would be interesting.
Why do you need a number for that? Exchanging 30+ feet of AN-10 line for approximately 3 feet of AN-10 line will decrease the resistance in your oil system. Let's say you'll gain 2-PSI of oil pressure...no, no, no...let's say your oil pressure will increase by 1-PSI...well OK, let's say that is will increase by only 0.5-PSI. My point is that I don't think anybody here, not even an engineer, would guess that your oil pressure would drop by removing 30-feet of oil line resistance from your oil system. It will make it better...who cares by how much? Why do you care? What difference does it make if it's 0.5-PSI more or 10-PSI more. It will not be even 0.5-PSI less, now will it?

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #31 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Rizzydee View Post
Don't want to high-jack the thread, but I'm about to install a Laminova in my Exige and pull out the oil coolers. Aside from a more efficient radiator, what additional upgrades does the coolant system need to keep pace? I planned to splice it in on the passenger side return pipe so I'm only running minimal -AN lines back to the sandwich plate.
You need to replace the sandwich plate with a plain one without a thermostat. Mocal made the OEM one and Mocal makes plain ones. The other thing, if you get AN-10 fittings for your sandwich plate, then you will no longer have any BAT fittings or those troublesome leaky oil line any more. Just unscrew the center "post", remove the old sandwich plate and then replace with the new, plain sandwich plate...reuse the OEM center "post" to re-fasten the new sandwich plate. Done!

[Edit] Just found this...
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101...cusump-187794/
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Last edited by machine.gun.kelly; 01-02-2017 at 07:04 AM. Reason: added link
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post #32 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
You need to replace the sandwich plate with a plain one without a thermostat. Mocal made the OEM one and Mocal makes plain ones. The other thing, if you get AN-10 fittings for your sandwich plate, then you will no longer have any BAT fittings or those troublesome leaky oil line any more. Just unscrew the center "post", remove the old sandwich plate and then replace with the new, plain sandwich plate...reuse the OEM center "post" to re-fasten the new sandwich plate. Done!

[Edit] Just found this...
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101...cusump-187794/
Aha, I think that's my option 0.5) above?

because racecar
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post #33 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:36 AM
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What occurs to me upon looking at the Laminova setup is that running on the radiator hose means that you will get limited oil warming prior to the thermostat opening, which is when you would like it.

Similarly 'higher oil pressure' is a claim without numbers, it would be interesting to see some data on that. Not doubting it, as most oil cooler installations result in some parasitic oil pressure loss. Quantifying it would be interesting.

Actually, with the Laminova setup your oil warming is much quicker as the radiator fluid gets up to temp more quickly than the engine oil. The Laminova is basically a water jacket around a pipe that engine oil flows through, with restrictors to control how hot/cold the oil will be.

I don't have numbers for the higher oil pressure, as I didn't have an oil temperature/presssure gauge before the Laminova. I only have one now as my mechanic wanted it as this was the first setup to retain the AC and he wanted to get everything just right. As mentioned previously, removing oil, lines and oil coolers wouldn't negatively affect oil pressure.

My car is up on Race Ramps right now as I'm modifying my Reverie side sills and I'm going to change the oil. I can't provide Laminova before and after data, just after data. The Laminova setup was my first modification to the Exige.

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post #34 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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Why do you need a number for that?

because that is how you know things

guessing is just guessing
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post #35 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:05 AM
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because that is how you know things

guessing is just guessing
No one is suggesting that anybody guess at anything here...we do that at the black jack tables. You just have to learn to analyse other people's tests, data, calculations, etc. That's beginning to smell like an engineer... You don't have to do it all yourself. You'll never get anything done.

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post #36 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Actually, with the Laminova setup your oil warming is much quicker as the radiator fluid gets up to temp more quickly than the engine oil. The Laminova is basically a water jacket around a pipe that engine oil flows through, with restrictors to control how hot/cold the oil will be.

I don't have numbers for the higher oil pressure, as I didn't have an oil temperature/presssure gauge before the Laminova. I only have one now as my mechanic wanted it as this was the first setup to retain the AC and he wanted to get everything just right. As mentioned previously, removing oil, lines and oil coolers wouldn't negatively affect oil pressure.

My car is up on Race Ramps right now as I'm modifying my Reverie side sills and I'm going to change the oil. I can't provide Laminova before and after data, just after data. The Laminova setup was my first modification to the Exige.

San

Prior to the engine thermostat opening, the source of the Laminova's water is going to be cold, and stay cold until it opens. Until that point it is possible that the oil is warming faster than the water, maybe, it would be interesting to see.

Of course removing lines would not negatively affect oil pressure, but depending on the pump design it may have little effect.

On both points, until you measure you are just guessing


My tests were run from dead cold[car sat over 12 hours] at idle never touching the throttle

i won't be able to to do road tests till spring. I have a feeling that this particular testing method may not favor the Laminova, which is going to look better when the water temp rises quickly as it does driving, and the front mounted oil coolers will look marginally worse depending on how much bypass is really going through the coolers when moving down the road.
It would, however give an 'apples to apples' starting point.
[edit] my last graph included the time when the fans kicked on, another point of interest, I would expect the Laminova to fire even sooner, a good thing I woudl think.
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post #37 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
You just have to learn to analyse other people's tests, data, calculations, etc.

When someone posts some, I will do just that
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post #38 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
When someone posts some, I will do just that
Are you willing to pay someone $100/hour for such trivial data? There is no value to most that can correlate other's data to this specific application and see that using 1/10 of the length of oil line is a benefit to the oil pressure in any system. It's not like asking if 30 feet of AN-10 is better than 10 feet of AN-8 line. You've got AN-10 in both cases in our particular situation. I just don't see the value of that one positive number...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #39 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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If you do not value knowing over guessing, well, I am glad you are not designing cars

No one here is billing for data collection
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post #40 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-02-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post
Prior to the engine thermostat opening, the source of the Laminova's water is going to be cold, and stay cold until it opens. Until that point it is possible that the oil is warming faster than the water, maybe, it would be interesting to see.

Of course removing lines would not negatively affect oil pressure, but depending on the pump design it may have little effect.

On both points, until you measure you are just guessing


My tests were run from dead cold[car sat over 12 hours] at idle never touching the throttle

i won't be able to to do road tests till spring. I have a feeling that this particular testing method may not favor the Laminova, which is going to look better when the water temp rises quickly as it does driving, and the front mounted oil coolers will look marginally worse depending on how much bypass is really going through the coolers when moving down the road.
It would, however give an 'apples to apples' starting point.
[edit] my last graph included the time when the fans kicked on, another point of interest, I would expect the Laminova to fire even sooner, a good thing I woudl think.
In case it's of interest, here's my personal experience with the Laminova setup:

I always warm my car at idle before taking it on track, oil temp lags behind water. After approximately 15-20 minutes at idle (car has a 170* thermostat), water is at ~178*F and oil is at ~145*F. Once on track and after a few laps, whether ambient is 55* or 95*F, water will get to ~176 to 185* (depends upon the blanking plates I use for the radiator opening to control water temps) and oil temp is ~ 220-225*F. These temps remain stable for the entire session or 30 minute sprint races that are run in Lotus Cup.

My 211 was used by Brent Bauman to test the prototype laminova setup, which he designed, and he made many small modifications to my car's cooling system in addition to just adding a larger/more robust radiator. This is why my car runs cool water temps and I need to block off air flow to the radiator on cool days. Brent was sharing the info and results with Allen at VSA, who subsequently took over sale of a complete system. VSA can sell a complete "kit" for DIYers, so no guessing as to which sandwich plate, size of laminova, aftermarket rad, thermostat, etc need be ordered. While a DIY install is possible, IMO, I'd leave it to an experienced Lotus shop to do the work as some minor fabrication may be needed.

Photos below of the blanking plates needed -- photo 1 no plates when ambient is 85* or above; photo 2 air opening limited to 12" for when ambient temps are less than 60*....
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Last edited by Jack; 01-02-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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