Dual oil cooler, answer to overcooling - Page 23 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #441 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kapps View Post
Thanks for the datapoint. Are you using the stock sandwich plate with 200F thermostat or an aftermarket sandwich plate? Also, where are you tapping the oil temperature from (pan or plate)? Thanks!
I'm using the Mishimoto sandwich plate with the 200 degree thermostat. My oil pressure gauge connects to a T that goes into the existing low oil pressure sensor. My oil temperature gauge is remotely connected to the sandwich plate. Both gauges work great.
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post #442 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
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That's a valid point. There is a thermostat in the plate, it just doesn't do a very good job. The other problem, of course, is that we, and Lotus, and Toyota all know that the 2ZZ-GE doesn't get overly hot oil street driven in the US with no oil cooler at all, even when it's dragging around a Toyota Matrix XRS, which has a curb weight of 2800 lbs. An Elige is a lot lighter and has a lot less frontal area - the engine is proportionately less loaded.

That's why I'm going with an oil-water cooler - I want to encourage the oil to warm up faster. That it also will provide the small amount of extra cooling I'll need on track days is almost a bonus.

The key to warmup time, from data so far, is a proper functioning thermostat. With a poor thermostat, even the rear mounted cooler seems slow to warm up
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post #443 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-10-2019, 07:42 AM
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One other related point I'd make: Toyota equipped 2ZZ-GE powered cars in the EU and Australian markets with the oil-water cooler. They didn't equip the cars in USA or Japan (except for the Celica TRD Sports M homologation model) with the oil cooler.

What are the common elements between EU and Australia? High cruise speeds requiring high sustained output because of aerodynamic drag at those speeds. Australia has hot weather, too, but not any hotter than the USA does, and Toyota didn't ship USA spec cars with the cooler.

Conclusion: a normally aspirated street only USA 2ZZ-GE Lotus doesn't need an oil cooler at all. If you're tracking a normally aspirated 2ZZ car you probably need some form of cooler, but nearly anything seems to meet the need, and you certainly don't need the dual air to oil coolers the early '05s shipped with. Anything you replace them with will take some weight out of the car as well.

Super/turbocharged cars are a different case with different requirements.
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post #444 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 06:24 AM
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Hi all, I'm almost ready to start providing my own results. I have a BOE rear mounted cooler with 200* thermal switch on the fan, BOE TOC oil pan, Mishi sandwich plate with 200* thermostat. However, I'm having a small leak at my sandwich plate and I suspect its coming from the block side of the sandwich plate. I'm also using a MWR oil filter union upgrade. Does anyone have the torque spec for that piece? MWR said "no particular torque spec". The first time I had the car heated up and parked I found a drop hanging from the filter. Took the sandwich plate off and found that I had not tightened it down well (being careful about it). Put it back together, tightening it more (to 50 ft. lbs) and it leaks quite a bit less but still does accumulate a little oil on the filter after a short drive at temp. Anyone have a torque spec for the oil filter union?
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post #445 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 07:03 AM
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I think there is or should be an o-ring between the sandwich plate and the block. The Celica manual has this:

60. INSTALL OIL FILTER UNION
(a) Using a 12 mm socket hexagon wrench, install the oil filter union.
Torque: 30 N-m (306 kgf-cm, 22 ft-lbf)
61. INSTALL OIL FILTER SUBASSY
(a) Check and clean the oil filter installation surface.
(b) Apply clean engine oil to the gasket of a new oil filter.
(c) Lightly screw the oil filter into place, and tighten it until the
gasket contacts the seat.
(d) Using SST, tighten it an additional 3/4 turn.
SST 0922806501

Now, that is just the filter union without a sandwich plate, but it is the same thread we are using to attach the sandwich plate. Bear in mind that this is a lubricated thread and so even 22ft-lbs is pretty tight. It still seems a bit low for comfort?

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post #446 of 455 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 07:44 AM
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Here is another discussion: https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f15...torque-339090/

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post #447 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 06:16 PM
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Here's initial data from the Toyota Oil-Water cooler. I used the cooler from a 5S-FE, but would expect similar behavior of an EU-market S2 Elige with NA 2ZZ-GE, or a US market car with the TRD/EU/AUS 2ZZ-GE cooler installed.

All measurements are uncalibrated. I'll validate the oil temp gauge against my infrared thermometer when I change the oil in a few weeks. This was the usual 'voice recorder data log' method of recording. I was careful to correct parallax error with the oil temp and pressure gauges.

This is a drive home on Friday evening Ambient temp about 75F. There appears to be a correlation between oil and water pump speed and rate of oil warm up, which points out the value of doing an idle warm-up test if you're looking for apples to apples comparisons. Specifically note the variation in oil warm up rates between 8 and 15 min in the plot. The water jacket is in the 180-190 F range any time after 7 min, so oil warm up rate is influenced by the rate at which oil and coolant are cycling through the air-oil cooler and the airflow over the pan. Note that oil bypassing the engine by going through the pressure relief valve is not being heated by the cooler.

I logged idle oil pressure at several points along the way. This is a proxy for supplied oil viscosity, which is related to oil (and engine internal) temperature, and should be a pretty good measure of the availability of oil in sufficient quantity to prevent high lift cam wear issues. By this plot on this car on this day, the magic time is between 8-20 min with a likely inflection around 12 min correlating with an oil pan temperature of 170F. I'll be careful to get some data points to nail this down a little further.
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post #448 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the data, @steelypip .

I would love it if you did the idle test for 15 minutes or so. It is so hard to judge the different driving conditions when comparing one cars plot to another.

Which oil pan do you have?

It looks to me like we are bumping against the cars natural cooling of the oil when trying to speed up heating.
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post #449 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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I'll do an idle test some time soon - never fear. The car is an '05 with a first batch Sector 111 gPan, which I was pleased to discover because it made installing oil temperature measurement so much easier.

You'll note that the pan oil temp actually decreases at the end of the plot. I suspect this is because of the low total volume of oil moving through the engine at idle. I'll have to find my thermocouple collection and wire the cooler itself for temperature, as I suspect that supplied oil temp is different than what I'm measuring in the corner of the pan.
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post #450 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:13 PM
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I installed the OEM oil/water heat exchanger.
I did a idle warmup test on standard Dual Oil cooler. Thermocouple placed on oil filter.
I then did the same test with heatexchanger.

Oil temp climbs quicker and stabilizes at about 180+F

Its interesting how the water temps follow each other so consistently between tests.

Note: I initially had air trapped in the system which read high until it came out. This data was much more stable.





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post #451 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 09:57 AM
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And because one good 'how I did it' post deserves another, here's how you put the 5S-FE cooler on an '05 Elise:

0. Why am I doing this? Because the Lotus solution for EU/UK/AUS cars is kind of expensive to add to a US car at this late date and I had the functionally equivalent 5S-FE part laying around. If you want to see the factory solution for 2ZZ-GE oil cooling, it looks like this:
https://jp-carparts.com/toyota/partl...ype=3&fig=1503. MWR sells the bits you need for the stock system, and not-a-number shows a variation of the install procedure above.

The procedure I followed is modeled on this one for a 7th generation Celica with 2ZZ-GE: How to: Oil cooler on a 7th gen

1. Get your cooler and center bolt (with relief valve) from a 5S-FE. The cooler I used is part 15700-88360 - COOLER ASSY, OIL, with center bolt 15690-88360 - VALVE ASSY, OIL COOLER RELIEF. from a '92 Celica GT. All 5S-FE engines sold in the US came with a variation of this cooler, because the engine was the largest iteration of the engine and needed the cooler. Where can you find a 5S-FE? Four cylinder Camrys built 1994-1999, Celica GTs built 1990-1999, and some RAV4s in the same year range. I recommend a tired, high-mileage engine from an auto trans car as a source so you know it probably didn't throw a rod.

Overview of the cooler and its associated plumbing (on a JDM SW20 MR2 in this case): ENGINE OIL COOLER / toyota | part list?JP-CarParts.com

2. Get two 90 degree 5/8" water hose elbows. The Toyota part is 16295-74010 (identified as a bypass hose in the Toyota diagrams), but there's nothing special about it, and you'll be cutting it shorter than supplied anyway. I'd recommend just getting two each of one of these from a vendor: DAYCO 80400, CONTINENTAL 63806 or GATES 28466. You'll also need hose clamps to fit. I use the spring clamps Toyota uses - they come free with the cooler and are an easier fitment in the tight Lotus engine bay than a screw clamp. You will need a total of six hose clamps - two come on your Lotus-supplied hose (holding the aluminum U-tube in, and four come with your cooler.

3. get two brass 5/8" double male barb water hose repair kits. Yes, you can go over the plumbing section and get the same thing branded differently for more money, but why? I used two of these: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Yardsmith-Y...ender/50328351. These will be replacing your aluminum U-tube and connecting the 5/8 elbows to the existing Toyota supplied hoses on the engine. Throw the cheap hose clamps in the goodie drawer for some other project.

4. Order these: 90301-52006 Oil Cooler Seal, 15785-35010 Oil Cooler Gasket, 90201-22010 Relief Valve Seal. They're less than $5 ea.

5. Get a 3/4" x 16 TPI threading die and any tools you'll need to use it properly. You'll need this to extend the threads on the center bolt.

Procedure:

1. Clean up the cooler. It's all welded stainless sheet steel, so you can be pretty aggressive in your cleaning efforts. It'll have some baked on cruft on it because the filter mount on an S engine is below the header and beside the catalytic converter and down pipe. Clean up the center bolt, too, but this won't need much help.

2. Prepare for an oil change on the Lotus. Remove the filter sandwich block. Disconnect the cooler lines from the block. Drain cooler lines of oil. I used compressed air to blow oil out of the entire cooler circuit. Messy, but removed a pound or two from the car. During work, you might find it beneficial to have them dangling to give a bit more room for hands and tools. At completion, seal the ends of the lines or connect together. I zip-tied the lines to the front engine mount in one case and a radiator hose in the other case to keep them out of the way of things.

2. Scribe a line on the center bolt where the inner seal on the oil cooler touches it. You don't want any threads cut on the bolt beyond this line.

3. Thread the center bolt up to the scribed line. I found that the back of my threading die had a steeper pitch than the front (cutting face) and so I could get properly sized threads a little closer to the seal with that. Cut off about 1/2" of the threaded end of the bolt and chamfer the threads.

4. Wash the swarf off of everything. and test fit on the engine The cooler adapter bolt in the engine block has about 5mm of recess relative to the filter mount. It looks like it won't clamp up properly, but it will.

5. Drain the engine coolant from the block drain cock. You don't need to drain the radiator, particularly if you have the nose of the car pointed down a bit.

6. Undo the spring clamps on the aluminum U tube and push them up the hoses above the tube. Poke something pointy (I used a machinist's awl) in the tube-hose interface and wiggle around to break the seal between the U tube and the hoses. The small shower of coolant you'll get is the feeling of success. Wiggle the U tube out of the hoses.

7. Fit the hose barbs to the cooler hoses on the engine. Pick your cooler rotation angle for best hose fitment and cut the new hose elbows to fit between the cooler hoses and the cooler. Clamp the hoses to the barbs. Remove the cooler and wash it and the center bolt again. Once dried of solvent (cleaning solvents eat seals), replace the inner and outer cooler seals with the Toyota parts you bought. Bolt it all to the engine using the new center bolt washer. Torque to 58 ft-lb. (from: https://www.slideshare.net/IsaacTorr...gerepairmanual, matches the cooler bolt torque on 5S-FE). Clamp hoses to cooler.

8. Refill cooling system and test run, checking for coolant and oil leaks.

Your pics below are:
1. test fitting cooler before cutting elbow hoses to fit
2. Threaded and shortened center bolt/bypass valve
3. Shortened bolt inserted in cooler. Threads originally stopped about 1/2" before the inner seal on the cooler.
4. view of cooler inner and outer seal as removed from donor engine
5. Lotus U tube, 5/8" brass hose barbs test fit into OE 5S-FE cooler hoses to validate fitting size
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post #452 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:49 PM
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I replaced my oil coolers with a Laminova C43-332. I guess it is overkill but I did not want to take a chance.

My car is a 2007 Lotus Exige S with a Blade275 tune. It is track-dedicated, no AC, ProAlloy single-pass, and MWR under drive pulley on the water pump.

At Sonoma last weekend I got these numbers (oil temp is in the gpan).

Lap 3, 7, 11
Engine Water temp (per ECU) 79C, 80C, 80C
Engine Oil temp 92C, 95C, 96C
Trans Oil temp 60C, 73C, 83C

This was a 30 minute sprint race. I have a transmission oil cooler as well (bonus info). The water temp is clearly under control as is the oil temperature. The trans does settle around 84C as far as I can tell. That Engine oil temp drops pretty fast on the cool-down lap.

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post #453 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 09:31 AM
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@steelypip Thanks for the writeup!

A question on bullet 7, specifically the 58ft-lb torque: looking at your reference pg 39. It seems that the thread into the Aluminum block is torqued 22ft-lb and the thread into the adapter is 58ft-lb. Am I right? My Celica Manual (no cooler) quotes the torque for the filter union as 22ft-lb.

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post #454 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 12:45 PM
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@steelypip Thanks for the writeup!

A question on bullet 7, specifically the 58ft-lb torque: looking at your reference pg 39. It seems that the thread into the Aluminum block is torqued 22ft-lb and the thread into the adapter is 58ft-lb. Am I right? My Celica Manual (no cooler) quotes the torque for the filter union as 22ft-lb.
You are correct. Union to block is 22 lb-ft. This makes sense as it goes into aluminum threads. Center bolt to union is 58 lb-ft, which appears to be a number determined by clamping force requirement of the cooler, as it is the same between the 2ZZ-GE and 5S-FE, which span about 20 years of design experience with the same general pattern of cooler.

In reality, nothing moved between about 30 lb-ft and 60 lb-ft as I was torquing the cooler center bolt. The cooler and bolt are quite inflexible once the outer seal has been compressed.
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post #455 of 455 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 05:25 PM
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Yes, any oil cooler on a car that does not see the track is overkill. Even tracked with quality synthetic oils, a cooler may not be needed.
Haven't run it in warm weather yet but on 60-70 degree days I didn't see over 210 at the pan with the entire cooling system removed and the filter straight to the block (autocross).

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