Dual oil cooler, answer to overcooling - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-09-2017, 09:14 PM
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We have a nice rear mounted system with fan, etc for either left or right side above the rear tire. Have installed many dozens of them on street and race cars alike. Have found that we see mid 200s on the track in the summer. It gets away from problematic front coolers, the potential for overcooling, etc... On race cars, the stats are not needed so much as the oil gets to temp quickly... The stats can help on street cars, but 180 or even 200 isn't where I like to see the oil... email us if interested. the kit runs about $700...

I've written a lot about the oil temps on this forum. The evidence is still imperfect for a variety of reasons, but carries sufficient merit to justify a cooling change, in my view.

Hope that helps,

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post #62 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 05:05 AM Thread Starter
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Hey Phil

I don't see that the coolers[once recalled] are particularly troublesome, at least from posts to this forum

As I mentioned in an earlier post, most perhaps even the vast majority of owners, are not going to seriously mod their cars, witness that at LOG this year a casual study by an old friend discovered that of all the Elise and Exiges there, only his car and my car had the recirc vent covers removed. How crazy is that? 8 rivets, 15 minutes, widely covered mod, immediate results, no one does it. Mount a new oil cooler? Never gonna happen.

In street cars, I think getting the oil up fast more important than maintaining an optimal high oil temp. People want to drive their cars in anger, and do not need another reason not to do it.

The primary issue I have seen WRT the factory oil coolers is not reaching proper temp. This simple mod should fix that with no downside that I can see. This summer I will see what actual operating temps I get.

re: Lotusmotion

I would not think a working thermostat would cause any issues. The smaller rear cooler seems to be proven to reject enough heat I cannot see a downside.
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post #63 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 05:16 AM
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We have a nice rear mounted system with fan, etc for either left or right side above the rear tire. Have installed many dozens of them on street and race cars alike. Have found that we see mid 200s on the track in the summer. It gets away from problematic front coolers, the potential for overcooling, etc... On race cars, the stats are not needed so much as the oil gets to temp quickly... The stats can help on street cars, but 180 or even 200 isn't where I like to see the oil... email us if interested. the kit runs about $700...

I've written a lot about the oil temps on this forum. The evidence is still imperfect for a variety of reasons, but carries sufficient merit to justify a cooling change, in my view.

Hope that helps,

Phil
I used your (partial) kit for the right side rear. Nothing personal, but I prefer to do my own plumbing and wiring, so I got your kit with the cooler, fan, and bracket (pre-assembled, thank you). I had some leftover plumbing (-10AN) and electrical hardware from previous projects, so using my own parts made sense (all high quality). Your bracket/housing design for the cooler and fan is very nice, puts the cooler in a good location: out of the way, easy hose routing, and should have decent air flow. I'm looking forward to getting back on the road (and track) in the coming spring (it was -1*F with more than a ft of snow on the ground when I left for work yesterday morning!).

-Ed

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post #64 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by exigegus View Post

...I don't see that the coolers[once recalled] are particularly troublesome, at least from posts to this forum...
Part of my motivation to get rid of the dual front oil coolers was to make it much easier to add air vents to help cool the front brakes. I managed to overcook my front-inside (only) Pagid blacks last time out (at Watkins Glen), not surprising that the front-insides would get hottest with the stock setup.

I also think putting oil coolers and lines in such a vulnerable location is a bad idea, the single rear cooler is much less vulnerable and the plumbing is much simpler (required less than 6 ft of hose in total).

-Ed
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post #65 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 07:17 AM
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Thx for the data Exigegus.

This is an important subject and results can vary wildly based on where a car is run geographically and whether on the street, track or combo. I don't think there is one solution that will work for everyone on this forum.

I have not seen the laminova work in cars with AC on the track - here in the desert southwest with our high ambient temps. San, maybe you have tracked your car with acceptable temps? Jack has great results but his 211 has the AC delete option...

Bottom line, there is no one solution for everyone. There are several solutions that have been described here that can work when applied correctly to the intended use. If you are still confused, call your local Lotus specialist.

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post #66 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:30 AM
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Thx for the data Exigegus.

I have not seen the laminova work in cars with AC on the track - here in the desert southwest with our high ambient temps. San, maybe you have tracked your car with acceptable temps? Jack has great results but his 211 has the AC delete option...
Shinoo, are you talking about tracking with the AC running or just that the condenser blocks air to the water radiator? If the former, I avoid this hp drag and H2O cooling effect by using a Cool Shirt driver cooling system. It is extra weight to carry, but offset by avoiding the hp absorbed by the AC system. Cool Shirt works well enough that, even in the Summer at Sebring and Barber, I often turn it off every other lap. Sounds almost like a commercial for the system but it works.

AC on is marginal relief on track as all DE events that I run require both windows to be down. I'm seriously considering going to a Laminova oil cooler and making a custom supplemental H2O radiator that takes the place of one or both OEM oil coolers. This might be the best way to handle both oil and water temperature issues for those of us who track in high ambients and humidity. Should also work well for those who encounter stop and go traffic in high ambients.

Bob L

P.S. Feel free to take this idea and run with it. I won't ask for a royalty, but a good discount on a future parts order would be nice.

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post #67 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 09:14 AM
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Shinoo, are you talking about tracking with the AC running or just that the condenser blocks air to the water radiator?
The condenser blocking air is my issue when coupled with 90-105deg F ambient - especially cars running more than NA power at WOT on track. I don't think it is viable to keep your AC in these conditions. Anyone running this scenario successfully?

Yes, the Cool-shirts are all the rage out here in the desert...

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post #68 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 10:07 AM
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Thx for the data Exigegus.

This is an important subject and results can vary wildly based on where a car is run geographically and whether on the street, track or combo. I don't think there is one solution that will work for everyone on this forum.

I have not seen the laminova work in cars with AC on the track - here in the desert southwest with our high ambient temps. San, maybe you have tracked your car with acceptable temps? Jack has great results but his 211 has the AC delete option...

Bottom line, there is no one solution for everyone. There are several solutions that have been described here that can work when applied correctly to the intended use. If you are still confused, call your local Lotus specialist.
No track use yet, just some aggressive canyon carving. Did Angeles Crest very early in the morning (before the cops set up the speed traps) all the way to the T and back. Very stable, but doubt I had the AC on, nor would I on the track. Jack doesn't have AC, but he's also pushing about 40rwhp more than I. I don't know of anyone at his horsepower level on the MP62.

San

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post #69 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 06:59 AM
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No track use yet, just some aggressive canyon carving. Did Angeles Crest very early in the morning (before the cops set up the speed traps) all the way to the T and back. Very stable, but doubt I had the AC on, nor would I on the track. Jack doesn't have AC, but he's also pushing about 40rwhp more than I. I don't know of anyone at his horsepower level on the MP62.

San
The issue is not running with AC on track, it is has to do with the airflow restriction caused by the AC condenser. You can drive fine in 100degF ambient in canyons and take the same car on track and overheat it with 90degF ambient. We've done it.

Track driving at WOT in the heat is a killer. Jack's car is not applicable. Yours has the right configuration. Let me know when you want to come out to Spring Mountain and we can put it to the test! But I suspect it will overheat so be forewarned...

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post #70 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 07:25 AM
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The issue is not running with AC on track, it is has to do with the airflow restriction caused by the AC condenser. You can drive fine in 100degF ambient in canyons and take the same car on track and overheat it with 90degF ambient. We've done it.

Track driving at WOT in the heat is a killer. Jack's car is not applicable. Yours has the right configuration. Let me know when you want to come out to Spring Mountain and we can put it to the test! But I suspect it will overheat so be forewarned...
I think it would be fine. Same setup as Jack's (but with AC). Allen installed it and when I purchased some side scoops from Brent at his house, he looked it over and gave it his seal of approval (he designed it). He specifically said he felt it would be more than adequate at the track.

I assume everyone hauls their cars to Spring Mountain? I have a truck, but no trailer.

San

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post #71 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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I am curious about the overheating bit. I met a guy with an Exige S who complained about constantly running hot to the edge of overheating, definitely a 'hot natured' car, while mine showed no such predilection either with the factory radiator[admittedly a few fall months] or the basic level alloy one in it now.
I noticed an Elise in a showroom with a new radiator and very poor detailing of the foam around it. I was pretty anal about that on mine mostly because failures there tend to dump hot air into the AC/heater area, but it does make me wonder, is there a correlation between this and some owners having hot running cars and others not.

On the track, I wonder if this coupled with the computer shutting the fans off at 70MPH might drive temps up.

To drift back on topic[no worries, I am the king of thread drift] is this a possible reason that Lotus over cooled the oil on a car that is destined for track duty?

And since we have Phil in the conversation, I was wondering, how much 'stuff' is available when reflashing. When I look at my[very limited] data set, I see that the oil pressure at idle drops to 23-25 PSI and stays there when the oil hits around 150 deg F[inaccurate external pan temp], which I will interpret as saying it is flowing probably 90 percent as well as it is going to flow. It also happens to track that the oil hits that number when the coolant reaches say 185 degrees, so if the cam change/rev limit delay number is available to be changed in a reflash, would it make sense to change it to a higher number in a car that actually runs warm enough for that[as at least one track car here does not]

and to drift back off topic would it be helpful to change the fan defeat to a higher speed or is it just so much simpler to put a switch to turn the fans on, or is it only really a problem when you are pounding out 100 horsepower more than the radiator is supposed to deal with?
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post #72 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 08:16 AM
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I think the fan defeat is there for a simple reason - above 70 mph the fan spinning at 100% acts as a bottleneck, you turn them off because the air flows around the blades at a faster rate than you'd get if the motors were on full tilt.

"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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post #73 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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I understand the reason, but I am wondering about the difference between 70 mph cruising and track duty, rapid changes in speed etc

I have not witnessed a car run hotter when the fans are left on so I do not believe that is an issue.

Oh, and my +2 needs the fan on on the highway because of poor air control around the radiator.
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post #74 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 10:47 AM
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I think the fan defeat is there for a simple reason - above 70 mph the fan spinning at 100% acts as a bottleneck, you turn them off because the air flows around the blades at a faster rate than you'd get if the motors were on full tilt.
Frankly I've never quite bought that explanation. It's not that hard to spin the fan blades by hand (with the fan off), I would expect the air flow at high vehicle speed would also spin the fan. That implies that leaving the fan on would make it spin even faster at high vehicle speed. My guess is that since there's plenty of air flow at 85+ mph there's just no need to run the fans, so the fans are shut off to reduce electrical load. Or maybe it's to avoid over-spinning the fans? Regardless, if the engine is overheating at high speed, I doubt keeping the fans on would significantly help (but I also doubt it would hurt, at least in regards to cooling), so in the end it hardly matters either way.

...idle thoughts on a quiet Saturday while taking a break from installing an oil temperature gauge...

-Ed
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post #75 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 11:06 AM
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I understand the reason, but I am wondering about the difference between 70 mph cruising and track duty, rapid changes in speed etc...
Really? On the track you're pretty much either hard on the gas, or hard on the brakes (with much more time spent on the gas than on the brakes), not that much time spent at light or moderate throttle (some during cornering, long sweepers being more of an exception). It's all that "hard on the gas" bit that adds thermal load to the cooling system (more fuel and air, bigger bangs, more heat generated). It's telling that fuel milage typically drops below 10 mpg on the track. Did I misunderstand what you're wondering about?

-Ed
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post #76 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Yes you did misunderstand

I am wondering if the fan staying on on the track would be helpful or irrelevant, I am positing that there are reasons I cna think of that it would be helpful, but do not know
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post #77 of 458 (permalink) Old 01-14-2017, 01:06 PM
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Yes you did misunderstand

I am wondering if the fan staying on on the track would be helpful or irrelevant, I am positing that there are reasons I cna think of that it would be helpful, but do not know
Yeah, I talked about that a few posts back.
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post #78 of 458 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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First spring run, kinda chilly 43F or so, screwed up my timing system so no time data as of yet.

oil came up to 180F loafing around on the highway, coolant temp about 182, put a little power to it and oil quickly came up to about 195F and stayed there. A bit of traffic coolant up to 191, oil staying around 195.

Mishimoto 200F oil thermostat came in finally, may swap that in

gonna snow again, so may be few weeks before I get any real data

oil temp measured at the sandwich plate with gauge used in previous test
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post #79 of 458 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 01:35 AM
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A few thought from this thread so far. I have 2ZZ engined Elise with twin oil coolers.

Have my oil temp numbers from a 'T' of the the factory oil temp sensor on the block and data is different to numbers quoted in thread - both absolute temp and time it takes to reach 60C - my reading is the actual temp of the oil going into the engine. Takes about 8 minutes from when the coolant temp displays on the cluster, on a normal traffic day.

Am interested in replacing the 2 oil coolers on my car, as I would like oil temps to rise quicker from startup, reduce strain on the gerotor oil pump and save some weight (28lbs? or 3.5 litres of oil + lines, coolers up front).

Am interested in rear Laminova solution, but what extra strain will it place on the coolant system? As Phil of BOE points out that if you have Aircon, (and some of us need it) that air flow is restricted to the coolant radiator by the aircon condenser below it.

If I opted to replace the coolant radiator I would be looking for something like a dual passage high flow radiator (to not increase strain on the coolant pump which was also originally designed for closer work), but will the oem aircon condenser limit the air flow? If so is there an aircon condenser that would do the job but allow higher flow?

The advantage of the Laminova system is a weight saving and a quicker oil warm-up, before going on the high cam lobe.

But the downside may be more stress on the coolant system - which would drag up hot day or track day oil temps.

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post #80 of 458 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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I have yet to post any timed driving numbers, but thanks for your numbers, approx 8 minutes to 60C/140F
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