Dual oil cooler, answer to overcooling - Page 7 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #121 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 08:58 AM
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OK. I should be able to handle that. I usually start and let it idle for a few minutes before driving, so I'll also monitor it during that time. I'll follow up once I have data...maybe this weekend.
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post #122 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 03:49 PM
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Thanks Exigegus for the follow up. When you mentioned that blanking has little affect were you you referring to blanking at the outside of the inlets, which is how you tested right or blanking at the coolers with zip ties and rubber matting as I was thinking? Lonnie
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post #123 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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I am just referring to what someone else here did. All the information is in this thread. From that I think that better blanking is not going to be any different

While the data we have is not comprehensive, it does appear that cars with the original sandwich plate all have a similar warm up curve.Only the better thermostat changes that among the vehicles tested. The various changes improve slightly the terminal temp, but not as significantly as the mishimoto thermostat.

I think what we can glean from this is that the stock coolers, even covered, can remove enough heat from the oil that they will virtually never allow it to get hot enough.
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post #124 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 04:00 PM
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Just back from a day at the track:

82 F ambient temp.
'07 Exige S
Stock dual cooler set-up

Steady-state oil temps on track:
WITH both inlets covered (see earlier pics): 205-207 F
WITHOUT both inlets covered: 190

Water temp was steady at 190 F.

So while I found the inlet covers only added 9 degrees of oil temp on the highway, they add 15-17 degrees F on the track.

I also found that using inlet covers leads to an appropriate oil temp, say 185, almost a lap earlier.

I WILL be using the inlet covers in every circumstance, for now, and I am GLAD I can get the dual oil cooler set up to work at 205 F with just a couple inlet covers.

NOTE: earlier in the day, at 70 F ambient, I was also getting 205 F with inlets covered.

NOTE2: since this thread is about the Mishimoto, I think the Mishimoto's benefit is greatest for street applications, as I can't ever get my oil over 165F on the street, even with inlets covered.

Thanks Exigeus for stewarding this study.
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post #125 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:34 PM
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Glad you saw some improvement with the inlet covers ..... BUT ..... IMHO, 205*F is still too low for oil temps, whether on track or on the street ..... just saying.

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post #126 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 05:51 PM
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You could be right Jack. Though, I need to look at some oil viscosity curves before I can say 220 F is materially different than say, 205 F.

When I find such a curve, I will endeavor to post it. (I'm running Motul 5w40).

Oh, and the poor folks driving on the street at, say 155 F, getting on to the second cam...I've little surprise in reading that the cam wiping appears to disproportionally affect street (only) cars.
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post #127 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 07:36 PM
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What Jack's getting at is 205 oil won't purge moisture, but 220 will. Oil lines are pressurized, so water's boiling point naturally increases.

If you guys are serious about proper oil temps, a single rear oil cooler is the most direct solution. Also, the improved oil pressure from moving 3+ fewer quarts of oil lessens the chance of the oil pump straining under high load. Don't forget the oil pump is the weakest link in the 2zz.
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post #128 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by +TSRAGR View Post
What Jack's getting at is 205 oil won't purge moisture, but 220 will. Oil lines are pressurized, so water's boiling point naturally increases.

If you guys are serious about proper oil temps, a single rear oil cooler is the most direct solution. Also, the improved oil pressure from moving 3+ fewer quarts of oil lessens the chance of the oil pump straining under high load. Don't forget the oil pump is the weakest link in the 2zz.
I guess that is why you really want to get the temp of the oil in the sump up to at least 215 so the moisture boils off.

I don't understand why the Laminova setup wouldn't be the ideal setup for the Lotuses - it would get the oil temp up quickly as it would work as a pre-heater when the oil is cold and a cooler when the oil is hot...and it is light and very small...

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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post #129 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 03:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by +TSRAGR View Post
What Jack's getting at is 205 oil won't purge moisture, but 220 will. Oil lines are pressurized, so water's boiling point naturally increases.

If you guys are serious about proper oil temps, a single rear oil cooler is the most direct solution. Also, the improved oil pressure from moving 3+ fewer quarts of oil lessens the chance of the oil pump straining under high load. Don't forget the oil pump is the weakest link in the 2zz.

I would suggest that 205 degree oil would retain moisture for a very short period of time. In fact I doubt 150 degree oil is retaining significant moisture. Driving time is the more significant factor. Certainly hotter oil will eliminate water from the oil more quickly than relatively cooler oil, but maintaining that it takes over 212 degrees to drive moisture out is at best an unproven assertion

Lotusmotion has offered to do some data collection on a single oil cooler in a street car. I have little doubt that it will result in higher final oil temperatures, I am more curious about the time it takes to get there.

As to the oil pump straining under load. Another unproven assertion. While I have not gone to any length to look into it, the only failures I have seen noted involved over revving, but I could be wrong.

Please, in a thread full of numbers, back up your assertions.

Last edited by exigegus; 05-01-2017 at 04:32 AM.
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post #130 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 04:03 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by machine.gun.kelly View Post
I guess that is why you really want to get the temp of the oil in the sump up to at least 215 so the moisture boils off.

I don't understand why the Laminova setup wouldn't be the ideal setup for the Lotuses - it would get the oil temp up quickly as it would work as a pre-heater when the oil is cold and a cooler when the oil is hot...and it is light and very small...

When we get data from a laminova setup, then we will know that won't we?

Until the coolant thermostat opens there is virtually zero preheating going on, so again, the data will show us what is what

As noted above, there is no reason that oil has to be above boiling point to remove water.

Last edited by exigegus; 04-29-2017 at 04:56 AM.
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post #131 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 04:49 AM
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Ay Lotusmotion, any chance you'll also have some track data?

"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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post #132 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jds62f View Post
Ay Lotusmotion, any chance you'll also have some track data?
No. I don't have any track days planned at this time.

Though, I can tell you when running the OEM twin oil coolers my oil temp would would hit 205 max during track use (at Buttonwillow), with ambient temperature of 95+ in Cali desert humidity (dryness).

Once the single rear oil cooler was installed, my oil temp would max out at 235 during track use (Streets of Willow), with ambient temperature of 95+ in Cali desert humidity (dryness).

I did not keep track of oil warm up time.

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Last edited by Lotusmotion; 04-29-2017 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Details...details...
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post #133 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 08:03 AM
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A few data points for me to share. I run a Oil temp and oil pressure gauge at the sandwich plate. My temps never go above 150F on the street whether I'm carving the canyons or just driving in the city. Cold idle oil pressure is around 65-70PSI or so and comes down to as low as 22psi when fully warmed up.

I recently pulled both coolers and took out the stock sandwich plate and replaced it with a normal sandwich plate without a thermostat. So the readings should read like any other 2ZZ Corolla/Matrix/Vibe/Celica. On the first drive, after about 20 minutes of driving in 55F weather, the temps settled at around 202F. Oil pressure was 8-10psi HIGHER across the board! Back when I had the oil coolers, sometimes when slipping the clutch out of first from a dead stop, the oil pressure dips low enough that it goes down to 15psi if you slip it just at the point of stalling. Not good. This never happens anymore.
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post #134 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Nessal
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post #135 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 11:49 AM
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Oil temperature data collection report

Start time: 8:30 am.

Location: Southern California coast.

Weather conditions: 68-70 degrees; 19% humidity; clear skies; mild wind.

Cooling system: S111 proRad (single pass); OEM radiator hoses; Peak Global coolant.

Oil Cooler set-up: rear passenger fender, 13-row oil cooler mounted in a ducted Mocal shroud. Air flow from a NACA duct inserted into side scoop and routed through 3-inch flex hose to the Mocal shroud.

Drive details by segment:
Initial 2 minutes - started car, backed out of driveway, idled while closing gates; started data collection.
3 - 6 minutes - 25 mph street route to freeway, all stop signs.
7 - 22 minutes - freeways with open traffic, 3,500 to 3,750 rpms, 65 to 73 mph; end of data collection period
23 - 40 minutes - continued freeway driving.
40 - 50 minutes - 35 to 45 mph suburban stop-and go traffic.

Observed oil temperatures:
195 degrees at 22 minutes of steady state of freeway driving.
205 degrees at 45 +/- minutes during several miles of stop-and-go 35-45 mph suburban traffic.
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post #136 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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You da man!

thanks that is great

So your oil temp goes up in traffic?

Mine needs a little push[extended highway or driving 80+ getting on the throttle] to get to 205 and will stay there but will drop to 195 when I get in town.
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post #137 of 458 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 01:22 PM
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Yes, the oil temperature will increase slightly when air flowing to the cooler drops to near zero (stop-and-go traffic), but the oil temperature will decrease as air flow increases.

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post #138 of 458 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
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[edit]

so somehow, I completely butchered transferring my data to the combo graph, dunno what happened, this is now corrected, I 'll correct the others


So latest graph including Lotusmotions oil data

I tweaked the times because I am lazy and did not want to add a bunch of rows to my spreadsheet, so there are some small differences in the times, you cannot see it in an image, but just for transparency

Notice how striking the similarity in the ramp is between all the stock oil thermostat tests. I am pretty confident in that data. Remember Jack's data is not really accurate in the ramp.
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post #139 of 458 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 04:24 AM Thread Starter
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So we have data now from a stock car and several of the most common mods, and I would venture to say that all of them could use a better oil thermostat. I would still love to see some data from a Laminova street car. If you look at the idle curve set, even with Jack's off the cuff data, it looks about what I would expect to see. I would expect it to have a similar ramp to the Mishimoto, perhaps subtly slower at the very beginning due to trying to heat up the coolant prior to the engine thermostat opening, then once the engine thermostat starts to crack, bang, shooting right up. But we will see if we can get that data from someone.....
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post #140 of 458 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 04:29 AM
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So, do I see this correctly? The single rear 13row oil cooler yields the same oil tempetures as 2 covered OEM oil coolers... Is that correct?

Whoever said that island life is great was never committed to Alcatraz...
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