Tillett B5 and Schroth 6-point harness install - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Tillett B5 and Schroth 6-point harness install

I thought I'd post a few pics of my recent Tillett install. These are great seats, I love them so far! I picked these up because I wanted to run 6-point harnesses with my HANS device but I also infrequently drive on the street, so I wanted bolsters low enough to run the stock 3-point belts simultaneously. The B5 is also HANS compatible.



The brackets that Tillett sells don't allow use of the sector111 hardware, so I picked up some bushings from McMaster and pressed them together to keep the belt ends separated and movable.



The bolt used in the Tillett bracket is an M10 (10mm diameter thread); the eyelet for the Schroth lap belt is 12mm; and the eyelet for the OEM buckle/belt is ~15mm. I ordered the following parts from McMaster to create this custom bushing:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#6679k14/=y0147t <Metric Steel-Backed PTFE-Coated Bronze Bearing, 10mm ID 12mm OD
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5448t8/=y0147t <Metric 932 Bronze Flanged Sleeve Bearing, 12mm ID 15mm OD

I pressed them together and figured out the proper spacing for the Tillett brackets, then installed them fairly easily. The belts can rotate freely enough, but there isn't a bunch of slop/play.

I also picked up some shaft collars through McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/#6436k75/=y0161h <aluminum, for 1.5" shaft (the harness bar for the track pack on my 2007 Exige is 1.5" diameter)



I highly recommend using some of these to hold your harnesses in place. However, the problem with the track pack harness bar is that the Lotus speakers behind kind of get in the way. I used my favorite tool (brute force) to get the collars into position so that the shoulder straps would line up correctly coming through the seats.




I'll be working on installing the bushings and the shaft collars on the driver side tomorrow, so I'll post some more pictures then. It's far more secure than using foam and zip ties!

Last edited by acslater; 07-10-2015 at 09:06 PM.
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-12-2015, 12:27 AM
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I really like that bar collar idea! Mine have never moved (Schroth) but I do check them all the time to make sure they are aligned and tensioned correctly. Great thread thanks!
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-13-2015, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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I really like that bar collar idea! Mine have never moved (Schroth) but I do check them all the time to make sure they are aligned and tensioned correctly. Great thread thanks!
Thanks, yea I never had issues with mine until I started running a HANS device, then it became a lot more necessary to keep the alignment right; otherwise the shoulder straps could slip off the device during sessions, meaning I would have to pit and adjust...PITA
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-13-2015, 10:29 AM
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Thanks for posting all that, extremely informative and clever!

2006 Black Exige
Chimera R.B.S./ITB airfilter/Composite Worx
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-06-2015, 07:36 AM
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Great idea with the bushings.

Life is much easier without a rear panel! I hated the track pack rear panel set I put in my Elise.

2007 Storm Ti Elise, Cup wheels, REV300
1992 Miata, gutted, Tillett seats
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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I've gotten two messages about this in the last month, so I want to clarify: I'm in no way an expert with any of this stuff! I have done my best to follow the guidelines in the Schroth materials.

My install is for the Schroth bolt-in brackets that are intended to ROTATE. Schroth also sells sleeves explicitly for these types of brackets, which is what I have upgraded to, and I recommend using them rather than McMaster hardware. https://www.schrothracing.com/produc...-brackets#2470

"The ideal situation for Bolt In harnesses is when the bracket can pivot on the bolt to allow for perfect geometry. This pivot action allows the force applied on the webbing to dictate the orientation of the bolt in bracket achieving the desired orientation of the bracket." -Schroth

If you are using bendable/rally-style brackets, Schroth recommends these are torqued down and bent in the proper direction for your application.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater View Post
I've gotten two messages about this in the last month, so I want to clarify: I'm in no way an expert with any of this stuff! I have done my best to follow the guidelines in the Schroth materials.

My install is for the Schroth bolt-in brackets that are intended to ROTATE. Schroth also sells sleeves explicitly for these types of brackets, which is what I have upgraded to, and I recommend using them rather than McMaster hardware. https://www.schrothracing.com/produc...-brackets#2470

"The ideal situation for Bolt In harnesses is when the bracket can pivot on the bolt to allow for perfect geometry. This pivot action allows the force applied on the webbing to dictate the orientation of the bolt in bracket achieving the desired orientation of the bracket." -Schroth

If you are using bendable/rally-style brackets, Schroth recommends these are torqued down and bent in the proper direction for your application.
Thanks for the update and I'm sure others will find it useful. I think part of the problem is that this car doesn't really have a good solution to mounting the lap belts, or at least I haven't seen a good thread with pictures. I've read that mounting the belts to the seat is bad, haven't seen much about mounting to the seat bracket (not stock seat bracket) and if you do the eye bolt similar to the 211 setup it doesn't seem to provide great angles on that belt (and space it tight). I've complicated different seats and anchoring the lab belt to the seat bracket but I'm not sure if that is better/worse than the eye bolt solution I currently have. Does a full cage provide better harness install?
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LostPawn View Post
Thanks for the update and I'm sure others will find it useful. I think part of the problem is that this car doesn't really have a good solution to mounting the lap belts, or at least I haven't seen a good thread with pictures. I've read that mounting the belts to the seat is bad, haven't seen much about mounting to the seat bracket (not stock seat bracket) and if you do the eye bolt similar to the 211 setup it doesn't seem to provide great angles on that belt (and space it tight). I've complicated different seats and anchoring the lab belt to the seat bracket but I'm not sure if that is better/worse than the eye bolt solution I currently have. Does a full cage provide better harness install?
Mounting to the seat bracket should be okay with the right hardware... the rally-style brackets are designed to be mounted and bent in areas with minimal space, and you can then connect the snap-in style belt bracket to them. Eye bolt is probably the best solution with the snap-in bracket as long as when its strapped the belt is at the right angle. Cage doesn't give any benefit for mounting lap belts - the rear half of the cage is pretty much the same as stock. Additionally, cages shouldn't be modified to accept belt mounts - has to be done that way at the factory.

https://www.schrothracing.com/produc...16.5-harnesses < SFI 16.5 Profi II is what I'm running with bolt-in swivel mounts to the seat mount. I was previously running the rally-style brackets mounted to the seat using the spacer, but I had a conversation about this setup with a guy here that made me re-think the setup and change it up.

Last edited by acslater; 02-12-2019 at 01:54 PM.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Here is an example of a CORRECT installation with the bendable rally style brackets

Last edited by acslater; 02-14-2019 at 04:27 AM.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-12-2019, 07:11 PM
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Here is an example of an installation with the bendable rally style brackets
I have no idea how much force is applied to the lap belt in a crash, but it just looks like those would bend more at impact than I would prefer. That is a great example of an install though in our tight constraints.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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I have no idea how much force is applied to the lap belt in a crash, but it just looks like those would bend more at impact than I would prefer. That is a great example of an install though in our tight constraints.
I mean this is specifically what this style of bracket is designed for and is SFI 16.5 rated, but definitely don't do anything you're not comfortable with
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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Are your seat brackets mounted on sliders, or no? If no, what did you replace the sliders with?

"Give a man a match, and he'll be warm for a minute, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 11:43 AM
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I mean this is specifically what this style of bracket is designed for and is SFI 16.5 rated, but definitely don't do anything you're not comfortable with
I understand that is an approved bracket and what it was meant for and I'm sure it has been tested and proven in real situations. I also know you're not making a recommendation here. I vaguely remember looking at these when doing my harness install and this picture would have helped and might still be a consideration for me as I might be looking at different seats again in year or so.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 11:47 AM
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Are your seat brackets mounted on sliders, or no? If no, what did you replace the sliders with?
I pulled my slider out and went with a fixed seat bracket. My slider wouldn't hold in position well enough any more and made that choice easy, the extra 1/2" or so made extra room for my helmet as well. If you're using the stock seat, I think the tall rails are at least one option but if you have aftermarket seats they should offer brackets for them that can fit our cars (maybe some modifications but at least a good starting point).
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 12:21 PM
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I've got T5's in my car, but I'm on the stock sliders because it was my understanding that I couldn't fit the 3pts and the harness to the fixed seat setup. If I can do that, I want to switch (and would want to know where I can buy seat brackets to facilitate the change)

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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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I've got T5's in my car, but I'm on the stock sliders because it was my understanding that I couldn't fit the 3pts and the harness to the fixed seat setup. If I can do that, I want to switch (and would want to know where I can buy seat brackets to facilitate the change)
I ditched the stock belts so cannot confirm how to keep those, but yes I feel like a tool wearing 6pt belts around town. The stock slider can be disassembled and you might be able to make your own bracket that will retain the stock belts. I think the tall rails will do this but you'd have to either ask or find install instructions to confirm.
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 05:09 PM
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I'm in the process of installing Tillett seat and bracket and I want to attach lap belt to this bracket shown in pic. I just don’t know the proper way to attach the belt to the attachment point on this seat rail.
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-13-2019, 06:17 PM
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... but I had a conversation about this setup with a guy here that made me re-think the setup and change it up.
Can you expand on this a little bit? Did you talk to schroth? what inspired you to ditch the rally brackets?

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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 04:26 AM Thread Starter
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Can you expand on this a little bit? Did you talk to schroth? what inspired you to ditch the rally brackets?
I haven't found anything that explicitly says a swivel installation of bendable rally-style brackets is wrong, but if you go through their materials the instructions for installation are for those brackets to be bent in the correct direction for the webbing and torqued down - no mention anywhere that I have found that they can be mounted like a standard swivel-designed bolt-in bracket. Other Schroth instructions for the rally brackets specifically talk about them being torqued down.

https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/C...structions.pdf

See page 14 (marked 12)

https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Hardware.Guide.pdf

See page 6 where they list the swivel hardware:

"These apply for B24, B63, and B45 brackets. On the B63 and B45 brackets, they allow the bracket to swivel to follow the correct webbing path."

There is NO MENTION of the B23 or B23B bendable brackets.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 02-14-2019, 06:59 AM
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Maybe I'll ask someone from Schroth. I know when Sector111 developed the kit they sell (that has rally brackets for the lap belts), they worked with a US based wing of Schroth to develop the kit, so that gives me some confidence that it is acceptable.

However, they also deliver that kit using SS hardware, which I consider junk. Will report back here.

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