New, beltless Honda K20/K24 dry sump system, group buy. - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 01:26 AM Thread Starter
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New, beltless Honda K20/K24 dry sump system, group buy.

Hi everyone,

I thought I'd start a thread about a new project which we've spent the last 8 months or so trying to get going. It came about due to my Time Attack car needing a proper Honda K20 dry sump system and no current off-the-shelf systems being quite what we wanted. Mainly due to packaging reasons. Therefore we approached AT Power, a UK company who are starting to specialise in a new wave of dry sump systems and who have plenty of previous experience with the Honda K20. In fact, they already make a normal style K20 dry sump system. Added to this, they also have the benefit of being able to produce their own pumps.

So, rather than following the norm this new K20/K24 concept involves driving the pump internally, therefore ending the need for the crank/pump pulley and drive belt. With this in mind it also seemed appropriate that the pump should be mounted directly onto the sump pan with the scavenge ports running through the pan itself and directly into the pump. This removes the need for so much pipe work/fittings under the pan and should also reduce potential leak paths, whilst at the same time saving on plumbing costs.

It's planned for the system to use four stages. One for the pressure stage, two for scavenging from the pan itself and another scavenging internally, directly from the head.

There will also be provision for a turbo oil drain, by building a feed into one of the scavenge galleries.

Pressure/return ports will be positioned to allow for the shortest possible pipe runs (i.e intake/gearbox side)

Turbo drain/scavenge port machined into pan.

Built-in adjustable pressure relief/valve.

So, a few details about the pumps themselves:- (Final pump spec/flow rate/gearing to be finalised after testing)

Machined from billet & not cast.

Dual-ported to aid rotor fill at high rpm and deliver a more stable oil flow sooner & for longer.

Stages dowelled for true alignment.

Bearings at front & rear of the shaft.

ARP fasteners used throughout the pump.

Common female inlet/outlet port threads.

The sump pans will also be machined from billet aluminium.

I've put up a picture of their latest Evo system drawing and prototype to try and give a taster of what AT Power's ability is. The K20 would not be able to work like this image as the chain for it will not allow it to be driven to far outside of the silhouette of the skirt of the block. This means that in comparison, the pan may grow a little in depth due to housing the pump although it is still expected to end up around 1/3 shallower than the standard pan.

The technical drawings for this system are being produced at the moment and should be finished by the end of the month. Then once the design has been signed off, a fully functional prototype will be machined and built up, ready for some vigorous testing, both on the bench and on track.

I'll be fitting one of these systems to my car but I'm also trying to see if anyone else is interested. If enough people potentially want a kit, then there may be the option of doing some sort of group buy. I already have a small list a people but could do with getting a better idea of overall numbers to see what sort of deal I can arrange. So if anyone is interested, please send me a message with some contact details so that I can keep you informed about progress. On a side note, we'll most probably be working with ProAlloy to make us an oil tank to use with this system. However, this will be a tank with a difference and I'll hopefully be able to provide info about this too in due course, as the kits will not come with any pipework or oil tanks.

At this point it's probably worth mentioning that I have absolutely no financial involvement with AT Power with regards to this project. I have nothing to gain from it (financially) apart from ending up with a suitable system that's available for me to buy!

Well I think that's about for now, but I'll try and keep this thread up to date with any additional info I get.

Thanks for reading.

Jamie

(Mods, please move this thread if it should be elsewhere. Thanks)
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 06:14 AM
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I'm interested pending price and time frame. I'll send you a PM with my contact info.

Thank you,

- Nick
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 06:27 AM
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re: Dry sump

Jamie;

This is very fine work, but...

Why re-invent the wheel. There is:

1. Dailey system which is similar to yours. The cost is high but reasonable.
Daileys pumps are the best. The product is tested and proven at professional level. Look at 4piston web site.

2. There is the Honda HPD system. It is even better! It is all located in-sump (it is dry-sump system, just very cleverly packaged), driven off the original chain. Could be hard to get. Designed for racing. It is on Honda racing web site.

3. There is the mount I have made for the ARE system. It is a traditional belted approach. It works very well and costs less than 1/2 of what you are making....

Anton
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Anton,

We're not really re-inventing the wheel though! It's a totally new product which will work in a unique way. For our needs there is just no kit that will work without compromising something else. If something was available we'd be using it!! (By the way, the pictures I've posted up obviously are nothing to do with the K20 system)

Anyway:-

1) The Dailey system. Only similar in that the pump is directly mounted to the pan. That is all and the rest will be completely different. Ours will also be fully tested to professional standards, on professional equipment and is being developed by some very clever people who have plenty of K20 experience and who race.

2) The Honda HPD system. Basically how ours will work off the standard chain. I believe the HPD system is almost impossible to get and would have to be part of a whole engine package at a cost of more than our whole car's are worth. Even the Toda dry sump system is $16,000!!! One of our sponsors who are European distributors have never, ever sold one.....

3) Your ARE system. I have no doubt it works very well. However, you had to make special brackets, so it's not a viable option for those who want an easily attainable, fit and forget solution which will work on ANY Honda K20/K24 car straight out of the box, which is contained within the silhouette of the dimensions of a standard sump pan and which allows for easy plumbing and no pulleys close to the chassis rail. Yes, the price will be higher than a normal system, but the design and thought going into it will hopefully make up for that.

Thanks,

Jamie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
Jamie;

This is very fine work, but...

Why re-invent the wheel. There is:

1. Dailey system which is similar to yours. The cost is high but reasonable.
Daileys pumps are the best. The product is tested and proven at professional level. Look at 4piston web site.

2. There is the Honda HPD system. It is even better! It is all located in-sump (it is dry-sump system, just very cleverly packaged), driven off the original chain. Could be hard to get. Designed for racing. It is on Honda racing web site.

3. There is the mount I have made for the ARE system. It is a traditional belted approach. It works very well and costs less than 1/2 of what you are making....

Anton

Last edited by jamiewillson; 06-11-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 07:59 AM
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re: Dry Sump

I still fail to see the point:

1. Need professional and tested pump. Dailey and ARE have been building 1000's of pumps for all levels of racing for many decades. I am not precluding any other vendors, but I would like to deal with someone that has been building oil pumps for a long time. Both Mr. Dailey and Mr. Armstrong at ARE are great people and have been in the business for a long time. (You know what happens when an oil system has a small glitch... it cost your $20k+ race motor. ) They know how to make the right pump for Honda, especially with turbo and VTEC. I am not sure that a good CNC shop can make a great pump. I am sure that a pump shop can use a CNC machine.

2. I think, in a race-only market where dry sump is most applicable, my solution is the most effective i.e. price/performance. If there was enough market, I could productize it i.e. make it turn-key. I have not had many people ask... The frame rail clearance worked out very well. It is actually more that I originally anticipated. Also, there is nothing preventing you following a more traditional oil pump path. $2.5k vs. $6k+ allows you to re-deploy valuable racing $$ to more exciting parts of the car!


Perhaps making a dry sump system that would work with A/C would require some work... Who would buy such a thing? What is the market?

In any case, another oil system option would be a great for all of us. I think, I am too late to discourage you, now. I saw the thread on the other forum.

Anton

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiewillson View Post
Hi Anton,

We're not really re-inventing the wheel though! It's a totally new product which will work in a unique way. For our needs there is just no kit that will work without compromising something else. If something was available we'd be using it!! (By the way, the pictures I've posted up obviously are nothing to do with the K20 system)

Anyway:-

1) The Dailey system. Only similar in that the pump is directly mounted to the pan. That is all and the rest will be completely different. Ours will also be fully tested to professional standards, on professional equipment and is being developed by some very clever people who have plenty of K20 experience and who race.

2) The Honda HPD system. Basically how ours will work off the standard chain. I believe the HPD system is almost impossible to get and would have to be part of a whole engine package at a cost of more than our whole car's are worth. Even the Toda dry sump system is $16,000!!! One of our sponsors who are European distributors have never, ever sold one.....

3) Your ARE system. I have no doubt it works very well. However, you had to make special brackets, so it's not a viable option for those who want an easily attainable, fit and forget solution which will work on ANY Honda K20/K24 car straight out of the box, which is contained within the silhouette of the dimensions of a standard sump pan and which allows for easy plumbing and no pulleys close to the chassis rail. Yes, the price will be higher than a normal system, but the design and thought going into it will hopefully make up for that.

Thanks,

Jamie
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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But they have been building successful pumps for quite some time? They already make a range of pumps and complete dry sump systems, including the K20? One of the guys there even designed the Pace Honda K20 system. I think they are not as well known as some companies due to the fact that they tend to deal with manufacturers and race teams rather than the end customer, but they do exhibit at trade shows all over the world. Also, worst case scenario it'll be about $4.5 including our taxes and that's normal retail. A
group buy should work out much better than that.

Anyway, this is a little bit about AT Power for those who would like to know a little more:-

AT Power Throttles Ltd are manufacturers of billet CNC shaftless throttle bodies, ITB's, Oil Pumps, and Dry Sump Systems.

Mission
To beat all competitors on performance, reliability, aesthetics and functionality, the only criteria that truly matter.

Company Overview

AT Power delivers stand-out performance for your car, on road, track or stage.

Our patented 'shaftless' throttle bodies improve airflow into your engine by reducing both the obstruction to cross sectional area at full open throttle and the turbulence generated by the shaft.

We also design all of our throttles to position the blade as close to the inlet valve as possible giving better throttle re...

Description
AT Power is located at Wymondham Business Park, Unit 9, Chestnut Drive, NR18 9SB. Just up the A11 from Snetterton Race Circuit and located close to Group Lotus Headquarters.

We bring hundreds of years of combined engineering excellence to a wide range of areas within the automotive industry.

General information
AT Power throttles specialise in the design, manufacture and global supply of high performance Motorsport intake systems and Oil Management systems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
I still fail to see the point:

1. Need professional and tested pump. Dailey and ARE have been building 1000's of pumps for all levels of racing for many decades. I am not precluding any other vendors, but I would like to deal with someone that has been building oil pumps for a long time. Both Mr. Dailey and Mr. Armstrong at ARE are great people and have been in the business for a long time. (You know what happens when an oil system has a small glitch... it cost your $20k+ race motor. ) They know how to make the right pump for Honda, especially with turbo and VTEC. I am not sure that a good CNC shop can make a great pump. I am sure that a pump shop can use a CNC machine.

2. I think, in a race-only market where dry sump is most applicable, my solution is the most effective i.e. price/performance. If there was enough market, I could productize it i.e. make it turn-key. I have not had many people ask... The frame rail clearance worked out very well. It is actually more that I originally anticipated. Also, there is nothing preventing you following a more traditional oil pump path. $2.5k vs. $6k+ allows you to re-deploy valuable racing $$ to more exciting parts of the car!


Perhaps making a dry sump system that would work with A/C would require some work... Who would buy such a thing? What is the market?

In any case, another oil system option would be a great for all of us. I think, I am too late to discourage you, now. I saw the thread on the other forum.

Anton
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 10:46 AM
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The one I'm running is not good?
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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The one I'm running is not good?
It just won't fit in without making some changes and even then it's far from ideal.
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2014, 12:25 PM
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It just won't fit in without making some changes and even then it's far from ideal.
What changes?
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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What changes?
Dejavu.....I'm sure I've been through this with you before Karol? Well, either move the engine sideways and backwards, or move the offside wishbone and it's chassis mounting point!! Perhaps even the water pump. Also, it's only a three stage system.

I don't know if you think we haven't looked into this before, but there are NO off-the-shelf options which will work as we want them to!!!!!!!!!!We are not in the habit of making more work for ourselves than is necessary.
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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 05:57 AM
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2) The Honda HPD system. Basically how ours will work off the standard chain. I believe the HPD system is almost impossible to get and would have to be part of a whole engine package at a cost of more than our whole car's are worth.
This is not true. The dry sump systems are available independently (not part of an engine package) and are a reasonable price. Have you contacted HPD?

2005 Elise with Honda engine
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 07:20 AM
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re: Dry sump

Jamie;

Let us agree to disagree on the statements, below.

Here is a simple dry sump. Effective, working made with proven parts with good price/performance.

It clears all suspension and frame rails. It needs electric water pump and deletes A/C. both, I feel, are mandatory for racing.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f163...58/index4.html

Just a simple bracket, is all that it takes! I found out later that the design can be improved by getting ATI to ship the race dampener with serpentine belt (non-race) cover. then A/C and water pump eliminator fork K-tuned will work off the shelf....

Saving on a couple of lines from the pan to the pump is no big deal to me.

Anton


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiewillson View Post
...

I don't know if you think we haven't looked into this before, but there are NO off-the-shelf options which will work as we want them to!!!!!!!!!!We are not in the habit of making more work for ourselves than is necessary.
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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Ok then, we'll agree to disagree. I really don't want an argument! I just get frustrated because you make out that we have put no thought into this.

The thing is, we don't want to run an electric water pump. We try to keep as many parts as possible that Honda provided us with, until they become ineffective for our application. Oh and don't forget, you have more room in your S2 chassis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
Jamie;

Let us agree to disagree on the statements, below.

Here is a simple dry sump. Effective, working made with proven parts with good price/performance.

It clears all suspension and frame rails. It needs electric water pump and deletes A/C. both, I feel, are mandatory for racing.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f163...58/index4.html

Just a simple bracket, is all that it takes! I found out later that the design can be improved by getting ATI to ship the race dampener with serpentine belt (non-race) cover. then A/C and water pump eliminator fork K-tuned will work off the shelf....

Saving on a couple of lines from the pan to the pump is no big deal to me.

Anton

Last edited by jamiewillson; 06-12-2014 at 11:46 AM.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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This is not true. The dry sump systems are available independently (not part of an engine package) and are a reasonable price. Have you contacted HPD?
Sorry, you're correct. I read up some info which was related to a different engine package. I'm getting some details on the HPD system, so we'll see what the score is. What I do know for sure is that they don't deal with the UK or perhaps even anyone outside of the U.S. So, it would be quite a laborious task getting a supply sorted.
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And guys. Here's a little bit more about AT Power, just in case there is any doubt as to how much experience they have in this field. Their credentials are certainly good enough for me....

The sales director worked for Pace products for 9yrs and the man who founded Pace some 30yrs ago worked on the design of the pump range. The design team are ex-Lotus engineers and have many years of experience designing complete engines from concept through to manufacture.

Some of their customers are:-

Toyota Motorsport Gmbh
Renault Sport
Oreca
Sodemo
Ginetta
ISA Racing
Race Engine Design “ S2000 specialist” UK based
MBE Race engines use their pumps on the Metro 6R4

Mugen Euro actually validated the Honda K20 pump along with the pulley ratio that they found to be best.

They also supply many smaller engine tuners around the UK & Europe.
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 09:58 AM
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Jamie-

Looks like a swank bit of kit you're working on. Not meaning to thread drift too bad, but it always surprised me that you could get away without running a DS and a sequential, high G load, etc... What changed that now has you going to DS vs your old WS?

In 2ZZ land, the oil pumps won't stay together with a squential and wetsump-- no matter what gears you put in there... (been there and done that a couple times)...

-Phil


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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
Jamie;

Let us agree to disagree on the statements, below.

Here is a simple dry sump. Effective, working made with proven parts with good price/performance.

It clears all suspension and frame rails. It needs electric water pump and deletes A/C. both, I feel, are mandatory for racing.

https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f163...58/index4.html

Just a simple bracket, is all that it takes! I found out later that the design can be improved by getting ATI to ship the race dampener with serpentine belt (non-race) cover. then A/C and water pump eliminator fork K-tuned will work off the shelf....

Saving on a couple of lines from the pan to the pump is no big deal to me.

Anton
well, thanks for the picture, but as I am sure you already know, that will not fit an Elise S1 chassis, you're Fed Elise has a way bigger engine bay to play with.

to fit one like that we would have to loose the water pump, etc etc etc.. just not going there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbophil View Post
Jamie-

Looks like a swank bit of kit you're working on. Not meaning to thread drift too bad, but it always surprised me that you could get away without running a DS and a sequential, high G load, etc... What changed that now has you going to DS vs your old WS?

In 2ZZ land, the oil pumps won't stay together with a squential and wetsump-- no matter what gears you put in there... (been there and done that a couple times)...

-Phil
no issue (apart from the usual G-force issues)

baffles and accumulators are OK to ~1.8G left and ~2G right.

Problem for Jamie's car is his is capable of 2+G now.

this also gets round the oil pump rev limit.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2014, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Yep, just as Simon has said above really.

Plus, as of last year the aim with my car was to basically try and create the fastest standard Elise chassied/bodied car in the world. However it was put together on a very tight budget, in very little time and we just struggled to get it how we wanted it. The fire and then the engine failure just put an end to it's development.

Therefore, during it's current rebuild it would be a shame for it not to come back to life stronger and more reliable than before. That's why we're going to try and give it a few more of the parts and toys it deserves. A proper dry sump being one of them.

Last edited by jamiewillson; 06-27-2014 at 01:44 AM.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 01:32 PM
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FYI got in Contact with HPD .. and received the following reply ...

The dry-sump was developed for the K-20 to be installed in the Formula Atlantic Swift 014 and Swift 016 chassis and is very low profile because of the clearance issues in that open wheel chassis.
The only public image I have is on the link that you have sent and unfortunately we cannot sell to New Zealand at this time.

All Honda Companies are separate global companies and they have restricted sales regions. HPD is a division of American Honda and the exclusive supplier of that pan for on track use only .

https://hpd.honda.com/formula-atlant...tlantic-Engine

So not really an option unless you live in the USA...

Last edited by cph; 06-26-2014 at 04:39 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2014, 02:42 PM
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re: Dry sump

Simon;

My Elise chassis is a 2002 NON-Federal, but a grey US import! so my dry sump will fit any chassis.

Loosing the water pump is a great idea! Increases power and cooling! I think, it saves weight, also.

So we should go there! For a simple, reliable inexpensive solution this cannot be beat! The price saving will pay for electric pump.

As mentioned below, HPD solution is widely available in the US. It is not very expensive. I would get it, if it was available when I built the car. It would be more than I spent, but not that much more... and I would still use an electric water pump for every race car I build from now on... and I would use the low profile pan and change the mounts to drop the motor and my CG!

Again, if you want to build another dry sump system, prove it, sell it, make $$ for yourself and your manufacturing partner... God bless! and Good Luck!

Anton

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well, thanks for the picture, but as I am sure you already know, that will not fit an Elise S1 chassis, you're Fed Elise has a way bigger engine bay to play with.

to fit one like that we would have to loose the water pump, etc etc etc.. just not going there.


no issue (apart from the usual G-force issues)

baffles and accumulators are OK to ~1.8G left and ~2G right.

Problem for Jamie's car is his is capable of 2+G now.

this also gets round the oil pump rev limit.
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