New, beltless Honda K20/K24 dry sump system, group buy. - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ageshelin View Post
Simon;

My Elise chassis is a 2002 NON-Federal, but a grey US import! so my dry sump will fit any chassis.

Loosing the water pump is a great idea! Increases power and cooling! I think, it saves weight, also.

So we should go there! For a simple, reliable inexpensive solution this cannot be beat! The price saving will pay for electric pump.

As mentioned below, HPD solution is widely available in the US. It is not very expensive. I would get it, if it was available when I built the car. It would be more than I spent, but not that much more... and I would still use an electric water pump for every race car I build from now on... and I would use the low profile pan and change the mounts to drop the motor and my CG!

Again, if you want to build another dry sump system, prove it, sell it, make $$ for yourself and your manufacturing partner... God bless! and Good Luck!

Anton
Anton, I'm managing to stay fairly calm after reading what you've said above, but I have to say it's getting a little irritating!! I'm afraid I just see why you have to get involved with this project thread, when it is of no help to us or you? Sorry if that sounds harsh or rude, as I'm really not trying to be.

Firstly, neither I or Simon will make any money out of this. We are NOT financially involved AT All. All we will do is probably lose money as we have both invested our time in getting it underway, FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh and by the way, in case you hadn't realised, anyone wanting to fit a shallow pan in order to drop there engine will also have to chop the bottom of their gearbox off, as it's as low as the standard sump pan.......
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 05:48 AM
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re: Anton's comments

Jamie;

Please, accept my sincere apologies for my misguided allegations that You and Simon have direct interest in this project.

Also, please, remember that this is a public forum. It is for the benefit of forum members and for open discussion. Last time I checked, US, Canada and UK were still democratic societies.

I believe the 'for Sale' forum etiquette has a slightly different set of rules, as we do not criticize stuff for sale, as long as it is not fraudulent. I checked the URL, above, it is '...Racing Cars' forum.

The reason why I get involved is because, I believe that the information, I provided is of help to the forum members. I believe, it would save them $$, it would save them time and provide known reliability. That is all. These are just the facts and nothing else. I hope the facts do not upset You.

Anton

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiewillson View Post
Anton, I'm managing to stay fairly calm after reading what you've said above, but I have to say it's getting a little irritating!! I'm afraid I just see why you have to get involved with this project thread, when it is of no help to us or you? Sorry if that sounds harsh or rude, as I'm really not trying to be.

Firstly, neither I or Simon will make any money out of this. We are NOT financially involved AT All. All we will do is probably lose money as we have both invested our time in getting it underway, FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh and by the way, in case you hadn't realised, anyone wanting to fit a shallow pan in order to drop there engine will also have to chop the bottom of their gearbox off, as it's as low as the standard sump pan.......
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-16-2014, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Finally an update with regards the dry sump project!!

Now before anyone passes comment on any specific design elements, this is not the finished article yet and a few changes are still being made. This is just a little teaser for those of you who are interested and purely shows the outside of the system from above and below. Having just spoken to AT Power, the plan is to get the drawings totally finished by the end of next week at which point I can show some more in-depth parts of the design and inner workings.

So a couple of things to mention:-

-This drawing doesn't yet show a turbo oil drain.

-It has also been decided that there is going to be no direct-from-head scavenge. It's something that is quite complicated to build into the system and more importantly something which could potentially cause issues.

-Oil inlet and outlet locations are not finalised yet.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2014, 04:37 AM Thread Starter
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Here's a little bit more info about this system to show the inner workings and how the package comes together as a whole. Also, the latest drawings.

As I thought, the timeframes have slipped a little again and we won't have a working prototype for another 6 weeks or so. Pricing however, is pretty much sorted for the group buy.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2014, 04:40 AM Thread Starter
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the pics:-
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2014, 05:21 AM
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Looks very nice...
With your pumps on the outside of the oil pan and on the bottom of the engine, what is the total depth of the whole assembly in comparison to an OEM pan?
With the oil pumps below the oil, you will never have scavenge problems...
I really liked Cosworth's idea of placing the oil pumps inside the oil pan.
It also looks like lots of pieces to assemble...every part line has the potential for leaking...

The 2ZZ-GE engine has a girdle for the main bearing caps...does the 20K have the same? The pump could be incorporated in there...

Any plans for designing one for the 2ZZ?
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2014, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Looks very nice...
With your pumps on the outside of the oil pan and on the bottom of the engine, what is the total depth of the whole assembly in comparison to an OEM pan?
With the oil pumps below the oil, you will never have scavenge problems...
I really liked Cosworth's idea of placing the oil pumps inside the oil pan.
It also looks like lots of pieces to assemble...every part line has the potential for leaking...

The 2ZZ-GE engine has a girdle for the main bearing caps...does the 20K have the same? The pump could be incorporated in there...

Any plans for designing one for the 2ZZ?
Total depth is about 2/3rds of an oem K20 pan, so roughly 4". Bear in mind this system has been made deeper than required for a K20, as it has been designed to fit the K24 too, which is 19mm deeper. The gearbox is still going to be the lowest hanging part anyway, so we weren't 100% focused on making the thing mega shallow. The extra 2" though, will be nice to have.

I'm not particularly worried about anything leaking. They will be properly assembled and pressure/leak tested in the factory and in theory there's no reason they can't be supplied pretty much in one piece as shown. All that will be required for fitting is removing the cover plate on the side opposite to the gearbox, loosening the oem oil chain and slipping it over the new assembly.......he said!! The reason for the modular design by the way, is to keep billet costs down, but also to allow it to be adapted in the future to suite other Honda engines, by only changing certain sections.

No plans for the 2ZZ as far as I know.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-13-2014, 06:52 AM
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Valid reasons...and good to know about your assembly protocol. Also like I said above, pump scavenging is guaranteed with that location.

Too bad you have no plans for the 2ZZ...I'd be willing to be your first customer...
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-31-2014, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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After a long time in the making, the integrated Honda K20/K24 dry sump system project is finally nearing completion and AT Power are finally seeing parts arriving from their machine shop. Up until now, it's just been a case of ogling over the technical drawings but now we can actually see some of their beautiful design work in the metal.

It's reached an exciting stage now as the rest of the parts should all be coming together in the next week or so, ready for assembly. Then it's testing time.

This is the main top section of the pan with it baffles lying loosely in place, along with a few of the pump housing component parts.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the whole assembly is 96mm in depth, as apposed to an oem pan at 155mm.

I've also attached some pictures of updated drawings as we've made some changes along the way.

More updates to come soon.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-31-2014, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
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And some of the technical drawings and changes we've made.
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-27-2014, 02:15 AM Thread Starter
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After a little delay, we're almost there with the prototype of integrated Honda K20 dry sump system and are now just waiting for a few more parts to be machined, mainly just bits of the casing. These should hopefully all be done by the middle of next week, allowing the system to be completely built-up by the end of next week. All being well, we'll be able to test it in December.

Here's a shot of all the various components we have so far.
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 11-27-2014, 09:00 AM
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Looking good...

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-08-2014, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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And we're done................well almost!!! I'm very, very pleased to say that the first AT Power Integrated Honda K20 dry sump system is finished. And what a beautiful piece of engineering it is.

This prototype kit has been completely dry-assembled to check for operation and fit. All is good and it's now been pulled apart again and sent off for anodising. By the end of the week all the parts will be back again and bolted together, just in time for some testing next week. We cannot wait to see how it performs.

Better pics to follow once it's back together and anodised.
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-13-2014, 01:13 AM Thread Starter
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The parts arrived back after anodising and the system is now 100% bolted together and ready to go. It was looking good before, but now it just looks the absolute danglies!!

Fingers and toes firmly crossed for test results next week.......
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-13-2014, 02:43 AM
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The do look nice... too bad I don't have a K20 motor...
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-14-2016, 10:15 AM
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hi jamiewillson and others,
I am new here, and i still don't know how to use the tools of this trade, which is a bit ironic, as i am a retired computer engineer. I am bad with Windows but will race anyone using the command line. I am on the edge of getting my '07 elise back from the honda expert in phoenix. It's got a new/used jdm k20a from civic type-r, so it comes with lsd. It's been just over a year since i smoked the 2zz, and just under a year since i gave Chris the car and told him to put in the type-r drivetrain. He said it should be at the tuner this weekend or Monday; it has to be tuned on a dyno to get the new/old ecu working, and to effect making changes--the new (hondata) computer is programmable, which is right up my alley. But right now, the new/old train is actually almost all old; only new parts are Al flywheel, baffled oilpan, and anything that is so hard to reach that i don't want to replace it at home. I'm interested in rebuilding the engine after i take the car to the track (inderanchracing.com, Wilcox AZ), and a dry sump is not out of the question. But because i am new here, i may not be fast at getting you what you need to respond. Let me know if i do this wrong. Or tell me how to do it with vim and grep.
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