1986-88 Bosch CIS K-Jetronic injected Esprit specific items - Page 13 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #241 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-22-2019, 09:00 PM
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As I work down Mazlow's hierarchy of Lotus needs (apologies to Mazlow) I'm wondering if the waste gate of my '86 HCI Esprit needs rebuilding. It is after all 30 years old and if my boost gauge is to be believed it's limiting boost to about 7-8 psi (boost gauge doesn't go beyond 12:00 o'clock on the gauge) which is below what an HCI should kick in at, presumably 9.5 or so (about 1:00 o'clock on the boost gauge). Does anyone make a rebuild kit for these? Otherwise everything is working well so under the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" axiom I'm reluctant to take it apart unless there is a real benefit to be had. My OCD gene makes me want this to be functioning perfectly but my common sense tells me I should leave well enough alone. All opinions welcome.
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post #242 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-22-2019, 11:44 PM
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1986-88 Bosch CIS K-Jetronic injected Esprit specific items

Your wastegate working fine. Long story but factory put in a spacer limiting it to 7 PSI. If you look at it and clean the grime off it will be stamped on the spacer edge. I have a picture somewhere on lotus talk.

You can remove the spacer - while I haven’t done it , MRDANGERUS has various postings on this topic.

Just saw now - post 236 previously has a photo of the waste gate and spacer and the details by MRDANGERUS.

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post #243 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 01:23 PM
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Thanks Eddie. I'll probably leave it as it is for now.
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post #244 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 2Many Cars View Post
Thanks Eddie. I'll probably leave it as it is for now.
86' MY cars had their boost limited because it was a mix bag. Only late cars had forged pistons (running change Lotus-style).
If you're not sure what's inside your engine, stay on the safe side and do nothing.
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post #245 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-23-2019, 02:27 PM
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Thanks Eddie. I'll probably leave it as it is for now.


Yes. While 2.5 lbs of extra boost is seductive, ‘ if it ain’t broke, don’t “fix” it’.


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post #246 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-24-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MRDANGERUS View Post
86' MY cars had their boost limited because it was a mix bag. Only late cars had forged pistons (running change Lotus-style).
If you're not sure what's inside your engine, stay on the safe side and do nothing.
First time I heard of this info. Sounds normal - running change during model year.

I also heard the cast piston engines had black-painted cam covers/intakes vs. the 'HCI' forged piston Turbo engines.
However, that was hearsay and I don't have any hard reliable sources to confirm it.

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post #247 of 258 (permalink) Old 02-25-2019, 08:56 AM
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Seems it would be easy to confirm what's in the engine based on the engine serial number - if Lotus would ever tell you. If there are any "pre" HCI cars in the US I would doubt there are many as selling HCI versions that weren't really HCI would get you into hot water pretty quickly, especially on cars like mine that had HCI badging from the factory. Lotus may have played a few games here and there but I don't think they were stupid.
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post #248 of 258 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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Today, I took my turbo apart, no part number nor plate, which makes me think it could have been rebuilt by PO.
I measured its guts:

FYI: my "old" turbo................................OE GT0301 (junked)

Exhaust Turbine:
-Inducer = 58.00mm.....................................?
-Exducer = 46.50mm.................................45.50mm
-Wheel height = 26.00mm...............................?
-Hub diam. = 16.00mm..............................16.00mm

Compressor: 0.42 A/R
-Inducer = 46.50mm, smooth bore..............45.00mm ! has a reduction step, see last pic
-Exducer = 60.00mm.....................................?
-Wheel height = 18.00mm..............................?
-Hub diam. = 14.70mm..............................14.70mm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here is a great upgrade for Turbo Esprits with external w/gates:

https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...egory_Code=NEW
Garrett T3 Twinscroll Turbine Housing in Ni-Resist For GT30R/GTX30R .61 A/R : atpturbo.com

COMPATIBLE GARRETT TURBO MODELS:
* GT3071R (60mm turbine wheel)
* GT3076R (60mm turbine wheel)

Why?
Here is an explanation of advantages of the twin-scroll turbos
https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-...-great-divide/


DD always required!
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post #249 of 258 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
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CIS Injected V16 Super Car: Ferrarighini Testadiablo

When the CIS injection ruled the World...

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Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 04-21-2019 at 07:02 AM.
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post #250 of 258 (permalink) Old 04-21-2019, 07:21 PM
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INTERESTING Mr D. I remember when that car was in all the magazines. Great Video. Thanks for posting!
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post #251 of 258 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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post #252 of 258 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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Displacing 6.0 liters, the V-16 featured 64 valves, eight camshafts, two Bosch CIS fuel-injection systems, four cylinder heads, and 4 twin timing chains. It produced a claimed 540 horsepower at 8,000 rpm and 400 lb-ft of torque at 6000 rpm.

Here is the story of Cizeta: https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...a-moroder-v16t
.
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post #253 of 258 (permalink) Old 05-03-2019, 04:43 AM
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It's conceptually two V-8's mated together. That's an approach GM used on producing marine application diesels I used to work on back in my maritime days. I once worked on a tug that had 3 sequences of GM diesels, V-4's to run the generators, V-8's to run the winch, and v-16's to power the vessel by turning the props. Lots of interchangeable parts!

Tom Mieczkowski
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post #254 of 258 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 06:45 AM
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Source for copper crush washers found on fuel line banjos...

https://www.mcmaster.com/crush-washers
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post #255 of 258 (permalink) Old 08-17-2019, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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OE Primary Pump provides VOLUME for the 2-nd pump: Bosch 0 580 254 967, rated: 148 l/hr @ 5 Bar, M12x1.5 (F) outlet, which is LESS than secondary pump
OE Secondary pump provides the pressure: 0580 254 979, rated:165 l/[email protected], inlet M14x1.5, outlet M12x1.5 (F)

It is a mismatch.
The secondary pump is trying to draw 17 l/hr more than the primary pump can deliver!

Primary pump should be substituted by another Bosch pump providing higher volume.
I found a potential replacement. It supplies 175 l/hr @ 5Bar, inlet is a tiny bit larger, but outlet is identical M12x1.5
This pump, Bosch 0580254053, provides 10 l/hr more than pump No.2 output is, which mitigates the secondary pump "choking" condition!
Feasibility of installing Bosch 05800254044 pump as a primary pump on 1988 CIS car has been confirmed.
Bosch 0580254044 delivers 200 l/hr @5 Bar, it is slightly longer than OE, but still possible to package when using a custom hard pipe x-over tube connectors.
If you want to retain the rubber connectors, use Bosch 0580254053 or 046 which is dimensionally identical to OE primary pump.
My secondary pump has been replaced with new Bosch 0580254979, which supplies 175 l/hr @ 5 Bar.
.
This chart shows specs of several Bosch pumps: http://www.mksautobusiness.fi/page_fuel_systems.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-9...uel-pumps.html
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post #256 of 258 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Why change Bosch 0580254967, rated: 148 l/hr @ 5 Bar, OEM pump?
Well,
discussion may be academic, but here is the concern:



What is Cavitation? How to Avoid It.
Posted on August 31, 2016 by Josh Davis

The most common failure of high flow fuel systems is cavitation, or “vapor-lock”. The combination of too much heat or too much inlet restriction can create this operating condition, where the liquid fuel literally vaporizes (boils) inside the pump assembly. Symptoms of this operating condition may include one or more of the following:

Dramatic loss of flow rate
“Gauge Bouncing”
Ratchet or grinding sounds from pump
Inconsistent or loss of fuel pressure
Temperatures above 120°F (50C)

As bad as the symptoms of this condition are, the results of this condition are often permanent, even if what caused the condition in the first place was fixed. Loss of fuel delivery pressure will also result in a lean-out condition as well that can result in engine damage. Typically, even with very short amounts of time of exposure to cavitation (depending on severity) will cause damage to the fuel pump. This damage results in a direct loss of capacity and efficiency. Often as noted when unchecked, this damage to the pump results in operating conditions that quickens cavitation exposure at each use. Eventually, the fuel system resorts to complete failure to build or maintain pressure. For all fuel systems of any manufacturer, this failure can be avoided as it is not a result of a manufacturing defect, but a result of a fuel system design failure. Two operating conditions can create the cavitation condition:

High operating temperatures
High inlet plumbing restrictions

High Operating Temperatures

High fuel system operating temperature conditions can exist for several reasons including high inefficiencies (for example a worn or damaged pump), overly high fuel pressures, high flow rate pumps for long durations with low fuel amounts. Or it can result in secondary sources of heat such as engine heat, or exhaust heat.

Most high flow EFI and carbureted fuel pumps are rated as “not continuous duty”. This is due to the amount of heat build-up that occurs over time as the fuel system is operating. When the fuel system has a high enough temperature the fuel will start to vaporize at the pump assembly – even with low pressure drop plumbing at the pump’s inlet. Once the fuel temperature is above 120°F (50C) the fuel is prone to vaporizing. A rule of thumb is: if it’s hot enough to be uncomfortable to the touch, then it is too hot. To allow for continuous or “street” use, voltage controllers are employed to reduce the pump speed during low engine demand operation to prevent heat build-up. Prodigy fuel pumps have a unique feature that allows reduction of speed without the need for an external pump controller. See our forum topic under Speed Control (https://fuelab.com/forums/forum/cust...speed-control/) for more information relating to speed reduction for Prodigy Fuel Pumps.

High Inlet Plumbing Restrictions

Some refer to pumps as “pushers” or “pullers”. The truth is that all pumps are both. This reference comes from the amount of resistance to cavitation a particular pump has versus another. Minimizing the amount of restriction feeding the pump’s inlet is a critical element to avoid cavitation. This is the main reason why typical OEM fuel systems have pumps mounted inside the fuel tank.

Use of straining filters is required for the inlet of the fuel pump. They to provide fine enough filtering to protect the fuel pump, yet coarse enough not to inhibit flow, or capture enough particles to cause a building up of debris. Finer filtration, to protect the rest of the fuel system (such as fuel injectors and regulators) can be accomplished downstream of the fuel pump with a second filter. Typically, straining filters for fuel pumps elements have micron ratings from 25 to 150 micron rating. FUELAB recommends the use of 75 micron rating for Prodigy Series fuel pumps (75-150 micron required). Typically, modern OEM straining filters are at a lower micron rating and made of plastic weave cloth. These types of filters are adequate and desirable for OEM applications, however, the typical aftermarket fuel system has too high of a flow rate to accommodate this form of straining filter easily. The biggest mistake (and almost certain doom for a high flow fuel system) is to use a 10 micron filter upstream of the fuel pump.

Plumbing size and the types of hose (or tube) play a vital role in the effects of cavitation as well general performance. The higher the flow rate, the larger the line size must be. Always avoid the use of check valves, or cross-drilled fittings when plumbing upstream of the fuel pump.

This entry was posted in How To/Technical Info, Uncategorized and tagged Cavitation, Fuel Pump Cavitation, Fuel Pump Cavitation Damage, Fuel Pump Vapor Lock, Fuel Pumps, How to Avoid Fuel Pump Cavitation, Vapor Lock by Josh Davis.

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 09-23-2019 at 05:50 AM.
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post #257 of 258 (permalink) Old 09-22-2019, 05:16 PM
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I wonder if series pump pairs ever see flows near their rating limits as installed. Pump flow through the return circuit must be fairly restricted with OEM plumbing bits and hose sizes. Any idea what the maximum flow through the system at maximum engine load might be? Maybe 2 litres/minute for a 300 hp turbo + return circuit flow? Total flow might be low enough that pumps both stay in their working ranges even if some what mismatched for maximum flow.

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post #258 of 258 (permalink) Old 10-02-2019, 10:59 AM
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Mr Dangerous,

I am duplicating the setup you made with the Earls filter. I found the Earls filter online but am trying to figure out what the other hose end fittings are that you used. 1) the U shaped bend, the brass looking barbs, blue connector, etc. I looked on the summit racing site but can only figure out some that look similar.

Right now I am installing a new pump on my 86 Esprit and don't want this one to get all "grindy" as the previous one did. Thanks for your valuable info that you posted on this site. I often refer to it as parts for this car are getting very difficult to source.

Thanks,
Stvdino
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