1997 Esprit Fuel pump replacement - Page 2 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 05:22 AM
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That black box (the ECU) will have to come out. No special tool for the ring, just a hammer and screwdriver. Both pumps are in the R/H tank as an assembly. Lift the whole thing out and you will see both pumps connected by one hose and you should see a split in that hose. Again, you are sure there is fuel in the tank? Both pumps should run during start up, the primary and secondary. The secondary only for a few seconds. Because the hose is inside the tank you would not see any leakage outside the tank.
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post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
I would say it is worth at least pulling the injectors and checking the flow and spray patterns. Then give them an ultrasonic bath and retest again before putting them back in.
From my experience, cleaning V8 injectors is a waste if time and money. You are better off replacing them.
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post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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David,
In looking through the diagrams/pictures in the books that came with the car, I can see the two pumps together as an assembly. At first when you mentioned 2 pumps, I misunderstood that there would be a pump in each tank.

I couldn't tell if one or two pumps operated, from listening to the humming. There was zero fuel at the Schrader valve.

I contacted JAE, they carry the replacement pumps however the Y hose is not available.
I will work on removing the pump assembly. I did locate the Engine computer. However the black plastic box I referred to, is mounted to the firewall just above the fuel pump. It has 4 screws. One of the screws at the bottom will be nearly impossible to reach.

From what I read here, it appears that there should be enough room to rotate the retaining ring once the ECM is removed.
Do you have any suggestions on how to replace the broken hose? Would a plastic tee work? I would hope to find a plastic or metal Y fitting but if that fails, would a tee work?

Do the pumps have a check valve on the discharge port?

If the hose is all that is broken, would you advice to replace the pumps anyway?
Thank you for your help
RG
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post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 09:19 AM
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Pumps do have check valves. Primary pump runs for a few second when you turn the key, secondary pump runs when the engine is cranking. Once the engine has fired up, primary comes back on, secondary shuts off. Secondary pump comes on again only during high demand; high speed, high boost.

Before jumping to conclusion, I'd bypass the relays to test each pump. If they both run with good pressure, then your problem is electrical, most likely a relay.

If if you don't build pressure after jumping the relay (verify you have 12v at the relay), then its time to pull the pump assembly and see what you have.
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post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:39 PM
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If the hose is bad you will have to have something made up. It must be resistant to the fuel and capable of holding enough fuel pressure. If the hose is not bad you must do what gmendoza said, make sure BOTH pumps run during start-up. The black plastic box is the alarm.
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post #26 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 05:47 AM Thread Starter
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David,
Where are the pump relays located?
Is there one relay per pump?
How do I bypass them to test the pumps?

Is it possible the pump intended to operate at start up have a bad relay?
If so, would a relay fail incrementally as opposed to failing at once?
The car got incrementally more difficult to start.

Thank you for your help
RG
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post #27 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 08:57 AM
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Raul,

the 93 on wards Service Notes that you indicated came with the car identify the locations of the relays.

Hopefully gmendoza will help with the correct pins for the jumper. Basically you want to by pass the relay and get power to the pump. Sometimes its easy to figure out sometimes not. There is a guy over on TLF that is a relay guru and he has posted how to bypass many of the relays for testing. Not sure if he has posted the V8 fuel pump relay info.

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post #28 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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Erik,
I wonder if the pump relays are exactly the same, I could replace the relays one at a time to test power to the pump and avoid damaging anything if I don't use the correct pins.
If in the end it is a broken Y hose, does anyone have a recommendation on how to fix it?

JAE recommended I look at a hose/fittings manufacturer, I couldn't find any Y type hose or fitting.
Thank you
Raul
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post #29 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 10:02 AM
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I would not replace with new with out diagnosing. Unless you have a "known good" relay. The relays that we buy in the parts store are manufactured very cheaply and might be bad out of the box (been there). I would try to eliminate the relay as a problem. Sometimes unplugging them and cleaning the contacts fixes the problem. Jumping the pins is not a big deal as long as you get the correct pins.

Do you have a picture of the Y hose? I dont have a V8 so have never had any reason to look at a pic.

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post #30 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 10:31 AM
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The fuel pump assembly looks like this.


You have to replace the 3 lengths of rubber tubing, with fuel submersible rated hose (SAE 30R10), you can buy the hose at NAPA. http://www.napabeltshose.com/~/media...hose.pdf?la=en

The plastic Y connector is probably ok, but you can buy plastic Y connectors. https://www.gates.com/ru/en/fluid-po...ine-hose/c/201
Or one with a straight leg for the primary pump

You can replace the hose clamps with any metal hose clamps really.
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post #31 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 10:33 AM
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Also, spray WD-40 or other lube on the fuel pump retaining ring, to make it easier to remove. The O-ring gets pretty sticky. You will not be able to reuse the o-ring, so order another one. I coated my new o-ring with Hylomar or silicone grease to keep the rubber from drying out, and to help it seal.

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Last edited by Vulcan Grey; 07-30-2019 at 03:53 PM.
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post #32 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Travis,
Thank you very much. This helps a great deal.
Thank you all. I hope to post in a few days with my findings.
Raul
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post #33 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 09:02 PM
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There are a couple of minor things I want to correct or clarify that were mentioned in this thread:

- The black plastic thing above the pump is not the ECU. It is instead the seatbelt cover. It's not necessary to remove, but anything you can get rid of to give yourself more room for whatever tools you use to work the ring off is good. The ECU (metal grey/gold box with the big plug on it) is an easy thing to get rid of and should be removed. Travis gave some great suggestions on the pump, and it's usually the right combination of flat head screwdrivers and a small hammer.

- The pump assembly doesn't cost enough to go through all the aggravation of removing it, sourcing submersible hose, and buying a new o-ring. Just buy the assembly and it will include everything you need. All the vendors with V8 parts should have it, and it comes with both pumps and the correct hoses installed.

- There is no reason to do an injector leak down test if you have 0 fuel pressure. It's way more work to remove the top of the V8 engine to get to the injectors, and having a failure that would make you lose all your fuel pressure would be very unlikely.

- Don't bother worrying about the relays. If you are hearing the pumps run when turning the key on, it's not the relays.

- If you have the PDF manual, the procedure for the pump removal is on page 1447, fuel pressure test (EMM.3) is on page 1445. If you need a copy of those, feel free to PM me and I'll email to you, but I'll bet you already have it. That PDF manual is in several large sections, and it bounces between the 4cyl and V8 several times.

Like many things on the Lotus, it will seem impossible but patience can get it done pretty quickly.

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post #34 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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Jake,
Thank you for your reply.
Your suggestion about replacing the pumps rather than mess with the fittings and hoses makes sense to me. The cost does not justify to piecemeal the work.
I contacted JAE and it is my understanding they carry the pumps loose, no hoses or fittings. No assemblies.

I was able to remove the air hose and the ECU carefully yesterday. I could've used an extra elbow.
I have checked the manuals that came with the car and section EMM is missing. I will PM you shortly.

If you know of a source for the pump assembly, I would appreciate your letting me know.

Thank you for your help.
Raul
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post #35 of 44 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 09:31 AM
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I just checked my 'collection' of Esprit documents and I'm missing Section EMU as well.

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post #36 of 44 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Travis,
The picture you posted helped me understand what to expect.
I removed the fuel filter with bracket from its position. The fuel hose attached to it is flexible and allowed for the filter to be moved out of the way.
I used a 5/8" flared open end wrench on the fuel fitting (pump side) and a 19-mm open end wrench on the flexible fuel hose.

I figured out from your photo that the pump side fitting is the one to rotate, not the one on the flex fuel line.
I removed the two fuel line connections to the pump.

I marked the pump top flange next to the retaining ring where the "step" is located, with a sharpie and used a long flat screwdriver and a hammer to tap on it. The sharpie mark, allowed me to see if it was moving. I tapped it lightly a bunch of times and started to rotate. The ring rotated without much trouble.

I was able to squeeze the pump out of the tank without removing the black plastic box above it. Someone here mentioned it is for the seatbelt (pass side).

The pump assembly has 3 hose sections. Two (one at each pump) had burst. The third one connecting to the mounting plate feels paper thin and ready to break. I took a bunch of photos as the work progressed. I attached the last two that show the broken hoses. The rubber material had degraded to a "paper-thin" condition.

I appreciate all the replies and advice. They have made it possible for me to remove the pump. (Section EMM in my documents is missing so no instructions on how to remove the fuel pump).

I have a few questions now:
1. Should I go ahead and replace the pumps, "while in there"?

2. I am worried that the wiring may not seal correctly and end up with a fire. The pumps appear to insert into the two plastic buckets that make up the assembly.

3. Does the wiring just unplug and plug into the replacement pumps? How does the wiring connection seal from the fuel? The pump vendor was unable to provide any information on how this works.

4. The hoses are held in place by these black plastic "tabs". They may be easy to take off. Should they be replaced with common hose clamps? One hose connection has no space for the screw (on the clamp). I am not sure if the old hose 'tabs" can/should be re-used.

I have not found any supplier that carries the full assembly.
I would appreciate any additional advise. I am leaning towards ordering the replacement pumps (loose), o-ring and filters.

Thank you for all the help.
Raul
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post #37 of 44 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 06:03 AM
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I would replace the 3 hoses and be done with it. Just get hoses made of the right materiel with the proper clamps.
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post #38 of 44 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 07:12 AM
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The wiring doesn't have to seal at the connectors. No risk of fire unless two bare wires could touch, then yes replace the wires. The connectors keep the two contacts far enough away that they can't arc in the fuel, that's how all electric in tank fuel pumps are.

Up to you if you want to replace the pumps. Sounds like they are working.

DO replace those plastic clips with metal hose clamps that can be tightened properly.

DO keep the wires from getting cut/abraded by the hose clamps or anything else.

Did you check with JAE in California JAE Parts | Worldwide Premiere Distributor of Lotus Parts I'd call them rather than email.

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post #39 of 44 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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David and Travis,
Thank you for your replies.
If I reuse the pumps, should I still get a new O-ring and filters?

I will inquire about the hose ratings at the autoparts store.

I have emailed back and forth with Jay at JAE about the pumps. They carry the pumps loose.

Thank you and everyone else for all the replies. I will post in a few days once I re-install the pumps.
Have a great weekend!
Raul
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post #40 of 44 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 09:06 AM
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Excellent- It's the cheap fix!

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