Citroën g/box Crown Wheel and Pinion - Page 4 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #61 of 229 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtrealty View Post
Lotus did not give a lot of concern about longevity to their products. They never worried about their cars when they got old. Probably surprised they last as long as they do!
David Teitebaum
Well, it is not always a matter of the longevity.

Something which is "bad" from the inception is still "bad" 28 years later.

Engineering FUBAR-s live forever!

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post #62 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-05-2016, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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post #63 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-05-2016, 06:15 PM
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I would not say bad. All engineering is a compromise. You just don't agree with their choices. They aren't all bad since it lasted as long as it did. Lots of other things don;t last as long!
David Teitelbaum
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post #64 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-14-2016, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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Very helpful links, courtesy of our Citroen Brothers from Sport-Maserati-L Yahoo List:

Download the DS manual 814 and review the section on rebuilding the transmission in Part 2

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tv0b25gpmd5ux8e/e-HYMQrA3e
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post #65 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-15-2016, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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X-180 and Ligier Js1 similarities

I found out that Ligier Js1 Le Mans car used "modified" Citroen transmission!

For the 1970 Tour de France, Ligier prepared two JS1s, both powered by a Ford V6 engine. The first car was equipped with a 2.4 litre Weslake prepared engine and the other with the regular 2.6 litre version also found in the Ford Capri. To make room for the bigger engines, the chassis was lengthened considerably. The Hewland gearbox used together with the Cosworth engines did not fit the V6s and was replaced by a Citroën SM derived five-speed transaxle.


Please correct me, if I'm wrong here.
I'm not an expert on Fords, but I think that Ford 26M 60º V6 crank rotates clockwise. Ford Cologne V6 engine - Ford Wiki

Looking at the engine from the front, Ford 26M would have the same crank rotation direction as our Esprit. Therefore, I expect, they had the same problems as we do, i.e. box and CWP running backwards**!
I heard, that the internal gears in the Ligier box were "reverse" cut to mitigate the pinion shaft force vector toward the rear bearing.

I'd like to learn more about this tranny.

Engine
Configuration Ford 26M 60º V6
Location Mid, longitudinally mounted
Construction cast-iron block and head
Displacement 2.548 liter / 155.5 cu in
Bore / Stroke 90.0 mm (3.5 in) / 66.8 mm (2.6 in)
Compression 9.0:1
Valvetrain 2 valves / cylinder, OHV
Fuel feed Kugelfischer Fuel Injection
Aspiration Naturally Aspirated
Power 215 bhp / 160 KW
BHP/Liter 84 bhp / liter


Help anyone?
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post #66 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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The box is in DS/SM and "Esprit" configuration (crown wheel on the driver side).
Notice cooler, mechanical pump, oiling nozzle on top above the crown wheel/pinion pair.
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post #67 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-21-2016, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jtrealty View Post
While it is true the diff gears are running "backwards" it doesn't seem to affect the longevity.They also run backwards in the Renault box in the Lotus AND the Delorean.
David Teitelbaum
Not true! It adversely affects longevity!
OE CWP driven on the "wrong" side of the teeth (coast flank) generates vector towards the cone center "jamming" the gears together, which should be avoided. See below.

PS: UN1 box/CWP rotates in the "right" direction.
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post #68 of 229 (permalink) Old 05-31-2016, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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post #69 of 229 (permalink) Old 06-05-2016, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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I'm redesigning both gears from B to A condition
In my "free" time, of course (LOL).
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post #70 of 229 (permalink) Old 06-24-2016, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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On Citroen parts variability:

Here is a difference (almost 2mm) in the tooth robustness of the crown wheel teeth.
The same manufacturer, but two different cuts!

Go figure why.
.
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Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 06-24-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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post #71 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-02-2016, 10:56 AM
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easy to say. Different ratio. Red marked crownwheel has 34 teeth, the white marked has 35.
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post #72 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 03:28 AM
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Imho, the 4.85 ratio is stronger than the 4.37 ratio. One teeth less on pinion and crown-wheel but on same diameter. More revs but I think the Esprit engine would really like that.

In stock,


with kind regarDSm,

Harry Martens

www.ds-vitesse.com
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post #73 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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The ratio of 4.285 (30/7) or 4.14 is more appropriate!
It would make Esprit with Citroen tranny perform equally to late SE cars, with top speed 175.9 Mph.

Although stronger, the 4.85 ratio would adversely affect car drive-ability.
The individual gear red line speeds would diminish (-3%, -11%,-17%,-25%, -24%), and top speed would drop to 155 Mph.

It would turn the car into a gas-thirsty lame dog. LOL.

Numbers don't lie.
See chart below.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Griffin + RBT 5 Speed Ratios.xls (40.5 KB, 81 views)

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post #74 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 12:22 PM
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Hi, maybe better but no stock.

cheers,

Harry Martens
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post #75 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, that needs fixin'.

That's why I'm working on bringing to the market a bulletproof and improved design!

Mater artium necessitas

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post #76 of 229 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 10:36 PM
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just thinking, what will be next weakest link if you make cwp "bulletproof" ? Casing or other gears, bearings??

with kind regarDSm,

Harry Martens

www.ds-vitesse.com
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post #77 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-03-2016, 06:04 AM Thread Starter
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Friend of mine runs Maserati V6 engine, modified, over 320HP with Citroen tranny. His 34/7 crown wheel, since it is driven on the "right" side, never failed (knocking on the wood).

It will run all day at 6500 RPM and makes at least 300 ft lb of torque
from 2000 RPM up to the red line.

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post #78 of 229 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
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Crown gear and pinion re-design is almost completed. Blueprints will be finalized in a couple of weeks.

Next, I'll start competitive quoting of the new design. THEN, a Group Buy will be initiated.

If Cryogenically treated, this CWP should be able to sustain 380-400Nm.

I hope, this will open new tuning opportunities to the Owners of cars equipped with Citroen transmissions.
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post #79 of 229 (permalink) Old 09-05-2016, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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post #80 of 229 (permalink) Old 09-08-2016, 02:05 PM Thread Starter
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To assess an interest in this project, I'm thinking about starting a confidential list of Owners, who would eventually consider participating in the Group Buy Initiative.
Details have to be worked out, so this would be just a "tentative" list.

Please PM me on [email protected] if you are interested.

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 09-08-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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