Citroën g/box Crown Wheel and Pinion - Page 5 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #81 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Citroen Crown Gear & Pinion-new 2016 design

Folks, EXCITING NEWS!

It took a while, but finally, my new design has been completed!

Comparing to the original Citroen CW+P, it addresses several critical deficiencies of the old OE parts.
It offers:
- reversed direction of the spiral - to correct the OE design flaw and apply force to the correct flank of the tooth (see posts 53-60)
- larger pitch for increased tooth thickness (30% strength increase)
- revised, more robust pinion gear tooth design
- better final ratio of 1:4.286 (vs 1:4.375), which improves the top speed in gear (more "peppy")
- aerospace grade alloy steel (same as critical aircraft engine gears)

Here are some gear/traction calculations:

*******************************
Final Gear Ratio….: 4.286
Tire Size………....….: 275-40-18
Max Power RPM…..: 6000
Limit RPM……….....: 7100
*******************************

*********************
Gear…Ratio….Compound ratio
*********************
1 ….2.930 …....12.558
2 ….1.940 …...…8.315
3 ….1.320 …...…5.658
4 ….0.970 …..….4.157
5 ….0.760 …..….3.257

***************************************
Gear.MPH/1000....MPH @6000…MPH @7100rpm
***************************************
1 …..........6.32…....…….38……...........…….45
2 .......…...9.54…....…….57……...........…… 68
3 …........14.02…....…….84……..........…...100
4 ........…19.09.…….....115………............136
5 ........…24.36…...…...146………............173 MPH

************************************************** *****
MPH………………………RPM (in Gears)
************************************************** *****
…….....…1….…...…2…...…..3…......…4…….....…5
************************************************** *****
. 5……...791….…524…..…357....….262….....205
10…...1583…..1048…....713….....524….....411
15…...2374…..1572…..1070….....786…...…616
20…...3165…..2096…..1426…...1048…...…821

25…...3957…..2620…..1783…...1310…...1026
30…...4748…..3144…..2139…...1572…...1232
35…...5539…..3668…..2496…...1834…...1437
40…...6331…..4192…..2852…...2096…...1642
45…...7122…..4716.….3209…...2358…...1847

50………....…….5240…..3565…...2620……2053
55………....…….5764…..3922…...2882……2258
60………....…….6288…..4278…...3144……2463
65………....…….6812…..4635…...3406……2668

70………….........…..….….4991….3668…...2874
75………………........………5348….3930…...3079
80…………………..........…5704….4192…...3284
85……………………........…6061….4454…...3490
90……………………........…6417….4716…...3695
95…………………........……6774….4978…...3900
100…………….…......…….7130….5240…...4105

105…………………........……………..5502…...4311
110………………………........………..5764...…4516
115……………………….........……….6026..….4721
120……………………….........……….6288…...4926
125……………………….........……….6550…...5132
130……………………….........…….…6812...…5337
135………………………….........…….7074…...5542

140……………………………….................…...5747
145…………………………………...............……5953
150………………………………...............………6158
155………………………………...............………6363
160…………………………………...............……6568
165…………………………………...............……6774
170…………………………………..............….…6979
175………………………………............….…....7184
************************************************** *****

Gear Change RPM drop (change @6000) RPM drop (change @7100)
************************************************** ***********
1 ->2…......…-2027 (To 3973).(19.60%)..........……-2399 (To 4701)
2 ->3…......…-1918 (To 4082).(21.28%)..........……-2269 (To 4831)
3 ->4…......…-1591 (To 4409).(27.12%).........……-1883 (To 5217)
4 ->5…......…-1299 (To 4701).(36.19%)….......……-1537 (To 5563)
************************************************** ***********

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 10-21-2016 at 06:41 AM.
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post #82 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRDANGERUS View Post
Jenna's -which article are you talking about?
I was referring to the entire post. There was a lot of valuable information from multiple sources. Has a price for the crown and pinion gear been established yet?? My transmission is fine but it might be prudent to have this on the shelf just in case. I recently had a friend tell me a story about putting one together which resulted in a lot of reverse gears lol
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post #83 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 05:05 PM
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This is exciting!.. It sounds like the new ring and pinion set will address the weakest part of the Citroen transmission in Esprit application and will finally allow the 910 engine delver its full power potential without trans falling a-part.
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post #84 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenna'sEspritTurbo View Post
I was referring to the entire post. There was a lot of valuable information from multiple sources. Has a price for the crown and pinion gear been established yet?? My transmission is fine but it might be prudent to have this on the shelf just in case. I recently had a friend tell me a story about putting one together which resulted in a lot of reverse gears lol
I have sent it out for quotes with a few large companies. Specialized equipment is required, so mom and pop shops are out of the picture.
It is rather difficult to make such complex parts on the cheap.
My primary objective is to make them unbreakable.
Cryogenic deep freeze treatment will be added to make them even more robust.
I will keep you informed about the outcome.
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Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 10-13-2016 at 06:52 PM.
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post #85 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 11:22 PM
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Hi, for sure, it will not be cheap. I think, you get quotes for around 1500 to 2000 USD. You would have to take at least 50 sets.
I went to Tandler Germany, 3 years ago. They make ring and pinions, gears etc for Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati etc. 50 sets is minimum. I was quoted 1500 euro/set.

To high investment for me, while I still have stock.

cheers,

Harry Martens
www.ds-vitesse.com
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post #86 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 07:17 PM
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Finally someone is developing the right solution designing ring and pinion gears which are stronger and cut with proper engagement angles. It will be a perfect solution for my ailing transmission in 84 Turbo.

This ring and pinion set will also help to save the transmission case integrity. Citroen case is prone to micro-cracks due to the ring and pinion trying to split a-part when rotating in reverse direction than they were originally designed.

This will be the ultimate solution for the Esprit Citroen weak ring and pinion gears. A lot less expensive and involved than trying to upgrade Citroen trans based Esprit to Renault UN-1 gearbox.

Cheering already,

Zig
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post #87 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Yep,
With this CWP, you can go drag racing, and I mean it!
The sum of incremental design improvements combined w/aerospace alloy steel and Cryogenic treatment rises it to a new dimension.
.

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 10-20-2016 at 06:44 AM.
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post #88 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-26-2016, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Improving Citroen crown gear teeth strength.

Improvement doesn’t have to come only from big, sweeping changes. While it is sometimes necessary to tackle big problems using big projects, this is not always the case.

Incremental improvement is an approach to process improvement in which you focus efforts on smaller solutions that slowly but surely move the project toward success.

These ideas are typically low-cost and low-risk, and are implemented sequentially. Although the results may not produce dramatic effects immediately, they will be long lasting. And the accumulation of numerous small improvements is often as powerful, or even more powerful, than attempts at making huge leaps.

Antonym: "Death by a 1000 cuts".

Incremental improvement in practice looks like minor adjustments to existing "stair-steps" processes made continuously.

I'm tempted to add one more improvement, this time, on the manufacturing side.

Unlike the Gleason and Oerlikon designs, Klingelnberg Palloid tooth profiles are generated using specially designed spiral hobs, which produce a gear tooth shape that is close to the theoretical ideal. The resulting gears tend to be stronger and more accurate with smoother running tooth forms, but Klingelnberg Palloid gear sets are generally more expensive to produce, especially in large production runs.

The Klingelnberg Advantage.
Klingelnberg Palloid gear sets are used in many demanding fields of application, including stationary gearboxes for high tech machinery and in automotive applications where large amounts of torque and/or shock loading must be delivered through the gearbox and differential section. This is because the Klingelnberg Palloid design offers some significant advantages that justify the higher production costs. Some of these advantages include:


Strength: Klingelnberg Palloid gears have a parallel slot width, which allows a fully rounded root region with the maximum possible root radii. This greatly improves resistance to bending stress and tooth fatigue. The small radius of the lengthwise curvature of the teeth and the high tooth contact ratio provided by the unique hobbing motion of this system greatly increases the load carrying capacity of the gear set while the true involute tooth form makes Klingelnberg Palloid gears less sensitive to gearbox and shaft deflections (case flex and shaft flex). In addition, it is possible to design gears with increased helix angle when necessary for certain applications. Since its inception, low sensitivity to deflection and high break-point capabilities have established this method as an effective means of preventing failures in highly stressed gearbox assemblies. In some applications, Klingelnberg Palloid gear sets can provide up to 25% more strength in the same size package.
Accuracy: Teeth are generated purely by rolling motion of the hobs, which insures a high degree of tooth form accuracy. The generating process is theoretically exact and calculation of the tooth shape is relatively simple compared to cutter head generated designs. Even under high volume production conditions, the combination of continuous indexing and a single-lead hob results in very accurate tooth forms.
Longer Gear Life: The Klingelnberg Palloid method results in extremely smooth running gear sets. The unique hobbing process provides excellent lapping conditions and enhances the inherent smooth rolling motion of the gear teeth. This feature, combined with a high tooth contact ratio, insures a long service life.
Quiet Operation: A combination of factors, including a high degree of tooth form accuracy, a high tooth contact ratio, and the fact that involute tooth forms are relatively insensitive to deflections and mislocations during final assembly of the gearbox, insure that Klingelnberg Palloid gear sets exhibit extremely good noise behavior, even when conditions are not ideal.
Small Minimum Batches: The Klingelnberg Palloid gear generating process requires less time to “dial in” the correct pattern, so there are less parts wasted during manufacturing. In addition, the tool setup times are short compared to the cutter head method. Hobs can be changed in a matter of minutes rather than hours. And there is no adjusting of single cutter blades, so adjustment errors are eliminated. This makes it economically feasible to make small runs of gear sets for specialty and prototype applications. This is a huge advantage over gear head cutter machines, which generally require minimum runs of 150 or more pieces.
.

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 10-30-2016 at 08:43 PM.
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post #89 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-30-2016, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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The jury is in! ( le jury a tranché)

- reversed direction of the spiral - to correct the OE design flaw and apply force to the correct flank of the tooth (see posts 53-60)
- larger pitch for increased tooth thickness (30% strength increase)
- revised, more robust pinion gear tooth design
- better final ratio of 1:4.286 (vs 1:4.375), which improves the top speed in gear (more "peppy"car)
- aerospace grade alloy steel (same as critical aircraft engine gears)
- Klingelnberg Palloid gear profile
- Cryogenic Deep Freeze Treatment included

Total price $1,586 per gear set, delivery in March 2017.

STARTING A GROUP BUY, NOW - Please PM me with your details

Last edited by MRDANGERUS; 10-30-2016 at 09:57 PM.
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post #90 of 229 (permalink) Old 10-31-2016, 04:21 AM
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I am in after 1st of year.
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post #91 of 229 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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post #92 of 229 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 06:41 PM
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MRDANGERUS,
Just PM'd you. You should have 4 names now!
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post #93 of 229 (permalink) Old 11-19-2016, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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post #94 of 229 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 01:08 PM
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Are you picking up any more names on the other Lotus web sites?

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post #95 of 229 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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post #96 of 229 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 06:53 AM
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I would also be interested. My LSJ project is nearing completion (4 cylinder supercharged ecotec 2.0L engine) and expect it will be around 300 hp and 260 ft lbs.....so the CWP would be a nice upgrade
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post #97 of 229 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 09:56 AM
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I would also be interested. My LSJ project is nearing completion (4 cylinder supercharged ecotec 2.0L engine) and expect it will be around 300 hp and 260 ft lbs.....so the CWP would be a nice upgrade

This CWP is for Citroen transmission (G Esprit up to 88 S Esprit USA with Citroen C35 transmission).

It is not compatible with the Renault UN transmission you likely are re-using from your 2001 Esprit.

Eddie B
87 Esprit 'SLEEK GT'
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post #98 of 229 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 11:01 AM
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I recognize that this is for the G cars. My project that I am referring to in my previous post is a 1986 Lotus Esprit. I have transplanted a 2006 cobalt 2.0L supercharged engine into it (the car had a serious engine fire....so whether than try and part it out, I decided to keep it going and went to more compact engine). At one time I had three Lotus cars: 1963 Seven, 2001 Esprit and the 1886 Esprit...now just down to the 1986)
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post #99 of 229 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Update:

Finally, the "real" quotes came in. They included the cost of tooling, blanks and machine time. The whole thing.

The total cost is $1800/set.
In addition to this:
Cryogenic Tempering is $150
My shipping to you (US and territories) $25

It came higher than expected and I'm not making a penny on this.
I went all the way out on this design. Aircraft grade steel costs double, comparing to the "pedestrian" steel.
Well, either you do it right or don't do it at all.

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post #100 of 229 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 10:02 AM
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$1,800 sounds like a familiar quote, I think I'd skip the cryo at that price point.

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