Mid engine fans - what do you think of the new mid engine vette? - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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Mid engine fans - what do you think of the new mid engine vette?

Curious what you all think of the new C8.

I am very intrigued - ever since the C6 Z06 came out with the dry sump I have started paying attention. I recently drove a C7 and was blown away by the quality of the drive.

I cant afford a new one but I am always thinking of 10 year old used ones.

I just worry that the GM look will be weird (not a huge fan of the C7 looks).

I also worry that they will go nuts on the pricing and wont sell any.

Probably a used Evora in my future before a vette but I jut love a mid engine car.

Some recent spy photos and details if you have not been keeping up.

https://autoweek.com/article/rumormi...-base-level-c8

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 04:20 PM
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It's about time GM put the center of mass at the most ideal location. The factory CF on the current Corvette is so amazing in quality that it looks fake.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 05:32 PM
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I'm interested! My only fears are the styling (from spy photos) looks like it wont age well, the rear wing looks weird, and I fear the price may get out of control...
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 06:02 PM
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I read an article the other day claiming the new Vette was 'untunable'. Allegedly, GM has encrypted everything. Not sure whether I really buy that 'untunable' statement, but I'm sure with the focus on CyberSecurity there is encryption in use for critical systems given their issues a few years ago.

One thing I did find intriguing was a comment the vette was delayed by months while GM worked on their new electronics and power distribution system. Makes me wonder if this will be the first mainstream car (to my knowledge) with a solid-state CAN enabled PDU instead of old fuse boxes.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 09:03 PM
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Hard to say until it comes out, but it's supposed to start at $60-70K, so we'll see.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-04-2019, 10:03 PM
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I love mid engine cars, Ive owned two MR2s, a Fiero GT, now the Esprit. I always thought the Vette was too common and it never intrigued me, Ive noticed lately the prices are a little higher than I ever would of guessed, im sure a mid engine will be thru the roof. It will probably piss off some Vette purists if its mid engine, just like the Vrod pissed off traditional Harley guys being water cooled. For higher end ZO6 money I would rather have an older exotic car regardless of how fast or slow it is. The Esprit is the car I always longed for as a kid, im pretty content with just parking it in my shop glancing at it from time to time, the shape is just to die for in my opinion. My boy has a Ford Focus ST, its pretty fast, maybe faster than the Esprit, But I dont find its looks appealling at all.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 01:22 AM
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I love mid engine cars, Ive owned two MR2s, a Fiero GT, now the Esprit. I always thought the Vette was too common and it never intrigued me, Ive noticed lately the prices are a little higher than I ever would of guessed, im sure a mid engine will be thru the roof. It will probably piss off some Vette purists if its mid engine, just like the Vrod pissed off traditional Harley guys being water cooled. For higher end ZO6 money I would rather have an older exotic car regardless of how fast or slow it is. The Esprit is the car I always longed for as a kid, im pretty content with just parking it in my shop glancing at it from time to time, the shape is just to die for in my opinion. My boy has a Ford Focus ST, its pretty fast, maybe faster than the Esprit, But I dont find its looks appealling at all.
$60-70K is hardly "thru the roof" IMHO, which is where the C8 base is supposed to start. The "higher end" C8 will likely be twice the price, but we'll see. The C7 ZR1 is "higher end" at $122K, but it's 755hp @ 3600 pounds and quite capable. A budget supercar.

I think the Corvette community has been looking forward to the mid-engined Corvette for decades. It was first proposed in the 60s.

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 03:31 AM
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I have a love/hate relationship with GM. We use a GMC 3500 to tow our trailers. The integration of the Duramax and the Allison is excellent, better than dodge or Ford, which makes towing a 16klb stacker pretty easy. However, you can tell the truck is cost engineered to the warranty period. Which is understandable on one end and annoying AF on the other. My wife(Alex) had a C5 vette for 17 years/182k miles. Now she has a used C6Z which she likes a great deal. GM's envelope of performance, comfort, cost, and capacity on the vette is very high. However, both of those models have had their issues. The early C5s had a crank case vent problem in 97/98 that required a block re-design. This problem lead to spun rod bearings, which my wife's car did. The C6Zs have a valve guide issue that is still not really well understood. We haven't had it, but many have. GM sticking by their "deny-til-you-die" customer support model.

The C7 will most likely launch with a version of the LT1 currently shipping in the C7. Any dyno graph of those cars show it is neutered by the cam. It should be possible to get 500HP out of that engine pretty easily. If they can hit [email protected] 3600lbs, it would be a solid place to start. The pushrod motor has the advantage of being lower Cg than DOHC and lighter. However, at probably a max 7k redline, probably not as exciting or involving as I would like. Of course it will probably be a 1st year problem mess like everything from GM.

The rumors on engines from there are kinda all over the place. The one I like best is a flat-plane crank NA screamer (8500rpm) redline with 600HP. <drool> There is also discussion of smaller displacement DOHC turbo for Z06 and this engine + front electric for ZR1. Could all be BS.

The last question is if GM will be capable of giving the new corvette the ergonomics of the outgoing model. The C5/6/7 all had very easy entry and exit compared to many sports cars, comfortable interiors, and huge storage area for a sports car. Can the mid-engine car do this? We'll see. Probably about 5 years into the production run when they finally sort out the bugs it might be a good car.

Alex's current C6Z is a chevrolet 100th anniversary edition, 2012 and seems to be very well sorted compared to earlier C6Zs.


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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 04:10 AM
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Ya ever notice

I think most "super cars" are starting to look like cookie cutter manufacturing. This includes the very late model Vette's. From a distance on the road it can be taken for a Ferrari. Air flow dynamics at work there I suppose.Maybe Chevy just woke up and realized that Chappy and Doc kicked their ass repeatedly with a 4 cylinder mid engine car called a X180R Esprit. Sometimes the smoke lifts in Detroit and oxygen makes it to the engineers grey matter. If the Esprit makes a new come back I worry that that air flow will make it be another cookie cutter car. That would be a grave travesty.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 04:29 AM
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I'm sure it's the smart way for them to go, but I prefer my Corvette's FR with manual trans. I've never owned one, but if I ever do, it'll be the old configuration. I'm pretty partial to the C6 Z06.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:02 AM
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I am a little surprised that GM is not making the base C8 in the standard front engine rear drive configuration and producing a mid engined Corvette for the Z06 and ZR models. But that probably does not work with their cost modeling and customer expectation (pricing).
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:30 AM
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There is suppose to be four levels of models of the mid-engine Vette. The first level will be similar to the Grand Sport. The second level will be a Z06. The third level will be a ZR1. The fourth level, oh well, it will be cool. The fourth level was suppose to be around 150K but has creep up to the 200K range.

As far as the C7 Z06, you want a late model 2018 or a new 2019. The earlier versions have a serious cooling problem which restricts on-track to about 10-15 minutes. The new Z06 and ZR1 have more coolers up front to help out the problem.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 08:36 AM
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It all depends on the pricing. If the base model really is priced about the same as the current Stingray, it will be the biggest performance bargain of all time, and I'll seriusly consider buying one. However, if the base model is in the $100K range.....see the Acura NSX sales numbers.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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yeah I will be so surprised if they bring in a mid engine vett at same price level as the current stingray or a bit more.

It will be fun to watch - I hope they have a dry sump version that is below the Z06 level - say grand sport level.

I also hope they have a hard top version...

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:12 AM
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My first response: Finally! After trying off and on for only 47 years (or 62 years depending on seriousness of effort) GM finally quit calling a fiberglass-bodied Camaro a sports car. Yes, this is hyperbole. Seriously: mid engine isn't exactly a new idea, and at this late date, it's pretty obvious that mid engine cars make better high performance road cars.

My second response: Yeah, the Evora is awesome (so's the McLaren F1). Imitation remains the sincerest form of flattery.

All snark aside, I'm glad that GM has finally figured out that front engine/rear drive is pretty good for trucks, but inefficient for most everything else. I'm curious to see how the Corvette fanboys respond - their culture is almost as hidebound as Harley people, and they are the reason that a big V8 in front and two sets of golf clubs in back are key performance indicators for a Corvette.

That said, I welcome GM raising the bar at this price point. It's going to do the same thing to a lot of cars in that range that the Miata did in its. I still remember the look on the Porsche dealer's face back in 1998 when I asked him why I'd want to pay twice the price of a Miata for a Porsche (S1 Boxter) that didn't do anything any better than the Mazda did. The Corvette (particularly in its high performance variations) has long been a pointed question to ask at the sports car dealer when considering one of their midrange cars. If it delivers the goodness the layout suggests it might, it could force Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, etc. to get clever with design (and pricing) to retain customers below the supercar price range. Let's hope they push it hard in GT racing and make a name for it.

I can't say for sure how much this is going to affect the Evora, though. The Evora doesn't primarily sell in the US, which is the primary Corvette market. We'll see how well GM does with weight control on this car, but I doubt it will be light as an Evora. I expect they've benchmarked the driving experience against a Cayman, which isn't the same flavor as an Evora either.

The other huge question is: will it have GM disease? I have a coworker with a Chevy Cruze that has been in the shop for weeks pending a turbo replacement (nobody can find a turbo). GM has had bad supplier relations for decades, and it has resulted in cruddy vehicles for those same decades... Even in the mostly congratulatory All Corvettes Are Red, there's mention of GM nickel-and-diming its way into fuel pump problems with the then-new C5. From recent evidence, I have no reason to believe anything has changed.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 09:40 AM
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All snark aside, I'm glad that GM has finally figured out that front engine/rear drive is pretty good for trucks, but inefficient for most everything else. I'm curious to see how the Corvette fanboys respond - their culture is almost as hidebound as Harley people, and they are the reason that a big V8 in front and two sets of golf clubs in back are key performance indicators for a Corvette.
I bet the hardcore Corvette owners will be outraged! However, I think GM is trying to do the opposite of Harley and appeal to a younger generation to gain future sales rather than appealing to their older fan base which soon won't be able to drive or buy cars. Additionally, I think GM is betting that the hardcore owners won't leave either because there is too much brand loyalty to buy anything else.

Personally, I think this is a good move and hopefully brings mid-engine sportscars to the masses by making them more affordable and mainstream!

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 10:58 AM
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I think the bagging on the Front Engine corvette is unjustfied. GM has known since the 60s that mid-engine is the way to go for ultimate performance. Zora Duntov wanted to do the mid-engine then. Certainly the race cars such as F1 were Mid-engine. Front engine solves alot of non-performance related issues. Engine and cooling are together. Storage space is better. Let's just be clear, the performance of the corvette is really, really good for what it is. The liveability/ergonomics are very, very good for a sports car. It really hits a wide sweet spot. However, sweet spot doesn't mean pinnacle in performance. Now that the engine power is finally at awesome levels, the Mid-engine is needed to advance the performance and remain competitive. 0-60 times aren't going to get better with Front Engine over the current C7 Z06/ZR1. Additionally, I think there were some pedestrian crash stuff that was going to be a problem if the engine stayed up front.

As far as pricing, I've heard $3k-$6k more for the base C8 vs C7.

They will not continue the front engine as tooling and efficiencies only make sense for one version or the other.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:36 AM
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The rumors on engines from there are kinda all over the place. The one I like best is a flat-plane crank NA screamer (8500rpm) redline with 600HP. <drool>
With enough motivation and cash, I'm sure you could swap out whatever the stock C8 engine is with the flat-plane V8 from the Shelby GT350. Brand loyalists would be outraged to the point where you might break part of the internet, but I'm sure you would have lots of LULZ.

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I've never owned one, but if I ever do, it'll be the old configuration. I'm pretty partial to the C6 Z06.
...maybe in a few decades once you're balding, picked up 50+ lbs, taken up wearing hawaiian shirts everywhere, and have started making waitresses uncomfortable with your conduct?

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I'm curious to see how the Corvette fanboys respond - their culture is almost as hidebound as Harley people, and they are the reason that a big V8 in front and two sets of golf clubs in back are key performance indicators for a Corvette.
Don't forget the folding chair for car shows.

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* Because of the comments I anticipate receiving, I feel compelled to add: C'mon guys, this is a joke.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:41 AM
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Dunno, comparing performance of a corvette with machines that cost multiples of its price seems silly. Whether at base of 56k, or ZR1 at 130k, what are its price point equals? I mean,I would buy the Evora 400 if I found that much change in the couch cushions, but I am not most people.

a lot of people, myself included, appreciate the dynamics of front engine rear drive cars.

How many people here would poo poo the new Lotus if it turned out to be a 2000 lb 280 hp front engine rear drive?

i think the question is, [and GM has shown their answer] "Is the future of the Corvette existing Corvette owners or new Corvette buyers?"
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 01:13 PM
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I think we're both in agreement that this car is probably a good thing. That said...

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I think the bagging on the Front Engine corvette is unjustfied. Front engine solves alot of non-performance related issues. Engine and cooling are together. Storage space is better. Let's just be clear, the performance of the corvette is really, really good for what it is. The liveability/ergonomics are very, very good for a sports car. It really hits a wide sweet spot.
Honestly, I think the biggest dynamics and statics problem the 'vette had other than front engine/rear drive was a big V8 engine mounted upright out front. They're inherently top-heavy and tall. Putting it in front of the driver's feet just doesn't make for a great package. When you mention the ergonomics being so good, the first thing that runs through my mind is the transmission and driveshaft hump that makes the interior 8-12" wider than it needs to be. That necessity goes away with the new layout. If they put a fat console in between driver and passenger on the C8 it will just be wasted cubage, and a sign that Chevrolet doesn't get it.

As for storage space being better with front engine rear drive...well sorta. Yes there's a big flat area over the transmission and rear suspension where your golf clubs are designed to go on the 'vette. I freely admit that the C5-7 has more storage than many mid-engine cars, but that's mostly because the mid-engine cars are not selling "liveability/ergonomics" to use your term.

Put another way, it's extremely easy to put a cavernous luggage compartment in front of the driver's feet on a mid-engine car: my itty-bitty Fiat X 1/9 would hold three medium-size suitcases up there. If the luggage was properly chosen, you could put the targa top over it if you wanted to GT with the top down. Something the size of a (much larger) Gallardo could easily do this as well, except that Lambo is selling that tiny wedge nose instead of a place for your golf clubs. The X 1/9 also had an Elise-sized boot behind the engine. My toolbox and parts stash rode there on long trips.

For that matter, the transmission and rear suspension on the C8 are where they were on the C5-7. Why not put the golf clubs on top of the transaxle where they were on the older cars, or put the mufflers beside the transaxle and the boot behind? Anyway, it's all about the packaging. Are you building a sports car, or a GT car? Do your customers care more about golf clubs, or lowest roll center and minimum polar moment of inertia? How much practicality do you want to give up for that low slung sports car profile and those world-beating numbers? It is worth mentioning that luggage space in itself does not hurt performance (it weighs nothing), although the structure around it might.
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