S4s clutch adjustment - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
S4s clutch adjustment

How should I adjust my clutch in consideration of the following details?

ISSUE: When pushing clutch down, it isn't fully disengaging.
DETAILS: I replaced the clutch and when I test drove it, the gears ground when trying to go into reverse every time. The clutch was engaging near the floor instead of towards the middle. The clutch would be fully engaged in 1st and reverse after lifting the clutch only 30-40mm (2"). I also noticed my clutch pedal is missing the down stop screw. Without the down stop, I have measured about 178mm of travel and the service manual says 175 - 180mm is normal (See 1st image below).

I don't want to adjust the Threaded Abutment screw too much because I'm currently at 11.4mm (spec = 9mm-12mm). You can read in the 2nd image why not to go outside that range.

Where should I make adjustments to resolve this issue?
Attached Images
   

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 03:37 PM
Registered User
 
Vulcan Grey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 4,833
Are you going into 1st or 2nd before going into reverse? You do have to do that.

How is the clutch feel? still soft or hard?

Travis
Vulcan Grey Esprit 89 SE

My Lotus Project Photo Collection
Vulcan Grey is offline  
post #3 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
I just checked it again. The clutch feels a tad soft from top to 1/3 of the way down when pushing the pedal, but I might be imagining that. I checked and made sure clutch master was full of fluid. Going into reverse from 1st or 2nd doesn't matter; I still get grinding noise as it slips fully into gear. Going into 1st requires maybe less than 1" from floor before the gear starts engaging.

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
 
post #4 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 03:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 893
I had issues with my car because the cylinder wasn't hooked up to the correct hole on the pedal. Make sure yours is hooked up to the hole marked 'C'.

2016 Chevy Cruze, manual
1987 Lotus Esprit Turbo HCi
2005 Elise
1981 DeLorean, manual, EFI conversion
delomike1049 is offline  
post #5 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
I did read this procedure on a V8 clutch (read the very last post). Not sure if it is the same for mine, but I would be guessing so...

I also read "A newly installed clutch will have a take-up point closer to the floor.
If the clutch engages instantly when the pedal is released from the fully depressed position, then this should be investigated." on this website. I have bled the clutch slave and there shouldn't be any worn parts, since it was operating fine before I replaced the clutch.

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #6 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by delomike1049 View Post
I had issues with my car because the cylinder wasn't hooked up to the correct hole on the pedal. Make sure yours is hooked up to the hole marked 'C'.
I'll check that, but I didn't mess with the clutch master, only the clutch slave. Also, the clutch pedal was working fine before I replaced the clutch that was slipping in 4th gear.

Thanks.

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #7 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:19 PM
Wingless Wonder
 
carbuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In the Back of your Mind
Posts: 5,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
I'll check that, but I didn't mess with the clutch master, only the clutch slave. Also, the clutch pedal was working fine before I replaced the clutch that was slipping in 4th gear.

Thanks.
Jim, Don't worry...the SIR pedal box arms don't have the [C]lutch and [B]rake holes IIRC.

Atwell Haines
'88 Esprit
Succasunna, NJ USA


"Not all angels have wings." - Turbo R
carbuff is offline  
post #8 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
I assumed the Lotus position to look at the clutch pedal. It doesn't appear to have any more room/threads on the clutch master cylinder push rod to extend the pedal upward. I think that's the direction I need to go...
Attached Images
 

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #9 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by carbuff View Post
Jim, Don't worry...the SIR pedal box arms don't have the [C]lutch and [B]rake holes IIRC.
Good. Because I used a mirror and looked all around... the only hole I could find was the [A] hole in the driver's seat!
roblotus79 and AceVentura like this.

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #10 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:41 PM
Moderator
 
sleekgt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,659
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
[snip]the only hole I could find was the [A] hole in the driver's seat!
Now THAT was funny!
AceVentura likes this.

Eddie B
87 Esprit 'SLEEK GT'
sleekgt is offline  
post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 04:43 PM
Wingless Wonder
 
carbuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In the Back of your Mind
Posts: 5,291
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleekgt View Post
Now THAT was funny!

Yep!

Atwell Haines
'88 Esprit
Succasunna, NJ USA


"Not all angels have wings." - Turbo R
carbuff is offline  
post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 05:02 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,035
If the pressure plate was not set up exactly right you will never be able to adjust it right by adjusting the pedal linkage. The dimensions of the pressure plate are also very important. Just a little too thin or too thick and it won't work either. If you got the clutch from one of the Lotus vendors you need to call them. If you had the flywheel ground and they didn't grind the step too, that may be the problem. Over-adjusting the pedal linkage may cause other problems so go carefully.
David Teitelbaum
jtrealty is offline  
post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 05:58 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,292
I have run into this same problem several times in recent years replacing clutches on 4 cyl Esprits particularly on S4 and S4s models. Personally I think it has something to do with a difference in the pressure plates from the original OEM parts as David alluded to above.

Don't bother trying to change the adjustment at the pedal if you have the recommended travel as you don't want to put any pre-load on the master cylinder and you need to maintain that 2-5mm free play at the top of the stroke. That can cause other problems with it not fully releasing. And the S4s never had any downstop as shown in the manual.

The solution that I and others use who have been there many times, is to go ahead and increase the fork threaded abutment screw dimension to whatever is needed to get complete disengagement but no more. Adjust about 1/2 mm at a time and check. You also should be able to spin the pushrod fairly easy with your fingers. It shouldn't have so much pre-load on the clutch plate that you cannot spin it.

This is all assuming that you are sure that the rest of the system is in good working order and fully flushed and bled. If any air has gotten into the system, bleeding can be a real pig.

By the way, the actual threaded adjustment spec for the S4s is 12.5mm. If you go over that at all, it shouldn't be more than a millimeter or so.

Good luck!

Jim
1995 S4s

Last edited by lotus4s; 08-14-2015 at 06:28 PM.
lotus4s is offline  
post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-14-2015, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
@jtrealty - I did have the pressure plate ground down. I noticed the step wasn't as prominent and Vulcan Grey measured with his caliper and it was wasn't within spec (05.mm-0.6mm). So I took it back and had them grind it to be within spec. The step wasn't as defined and sharp-edged, but it was still good (at least I think so). The clutch plate and pressure plate was from JAE, but not sure where they sourced it from exactly. Thanks for the words of caution. I was hoping to get input like this before I go all loose cannon on fixing this.

@lotus4s - Didn't know the missing downstop was standard on the S4s and the manual was telling me otherwise. The slave push rod spins freely, but if I put the car in 1st gear with the clutch all the way in, the wheels spin (while on jack stands). But if the car is resting on the ground, there isn't any forward motion with the clutch pushed in. Did I put something back together wrong?
The clutch was bled. Then I detached it and hung it upside down to get the bleeder nipple at the top and bleed it a little more. In order to get the push rod back in far enough for me to bolt the clutch slave back on, I had to crack open the line (not the bleeder) to relieve some pressure. Then I bled the slave again with a couple more foot depressions (using the bleeder nipple) and no bubbles.
Thanks for clarification on the abutment screw spec being up to 12.5mm for the S4s. I'll probably make some small adjustments to see if that fixes it and then possibly make some small adjustments at the clutch pedal.

Thanks for your feedback guys!
Attached Images
 

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 05:18 AM
Registered User
 
MidLifeZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,976
I went through the same thing a year or so ago. I did the initial clutch swap myself and afterward shifting went to )%*)$!

Having done a lot of clutch replacements in the past and even after going back through everything finally had to throw hands up in the air. Out of time to do on my own I took it to Sports Car World in Dallas. The brand new clutch had a manufacturing defect. Sent back to JAE and they swapped it out. I also had SCW adjust everything from front to back. My 1994 S4 shifts as good as any car I have ever had, like butter, now.

Kenny; Dallas Tx
==============================
1995 Lexus SC300 - SOLD
1990 Nissan 300ZX - SOLD
1990 Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo - SOLD
1996 Porsche 911 Cab - SOLD
1989 Porsche 928 S4 - SOLD
1994 Lotus Esprit S4
Test pipe, Ramspott & Brandt center exit exhaust, 2002 center exhaust valance, Alunox performance exhaust manifold, Spax coilovers with Eibach front springs, Elise steering wheel
MidLifeZ is offline  
post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
I decided to check to see how much play there really was at the top of the pedal before changing any adjustment points. I had another person push the clutch slowly until I felt resistance while spinning the slave push rod. I had them stop when I could still rotate the push rod but definitely felt a significant amount of resistance. I measured about 20mm of clutch pedal travel which is way more than the 2 - 5mm specified in the manual. So I bled some more fluid through the clutch and still no bubbles or change in the clutch pedal.

Since the wheels spin while jacked up with the clutch pushed all the way in, I figure there's enough tension on the fork already. So it is probably best to adjust at the clutch pedal a little bit first (noob engineering logic being used here). However, I can't get the pin out (I did successfully remove the cotter/retaining pin though). I hammered with a little ball peen hammer (because there is no room to work under the dash) and it doesn't budge. So I think I'll go try to loosen one of the nuts and then try rotating the push rod instead since this bracket holding the 2nd nut can't be removed.


...only 6 days until LOG35 I might have to put the old clutch back in if I can't get this one to work @MidLifeZ .

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 10:30 AM
Registered User
 
Vulcan Grey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 4,833
@Seraph Re-read what @lotus4s wrote.

The pedal adjustment is probably fine. The 2-5 mm of free play is totally free jiggle room, the piston is not engaged at all. No force required at all. it's not something you can feel with a foot. Gently grab the pedal and wiggle it up and back (not really down) that wiggle room is just to make sure the piston has returned all the way.

What Jim @lotus4s said was that you probably do need to adjust the fork. TO what he said (not what the book has). He knows the S4s.

Travis
Vulcan Grey Esprit 89 SE

My Lotus Project Photo Collection
Vulcan Grey is offline  
post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
S4s
 
Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Castle Rock, CO USA
Posts: 632
Garage
I learned that the easiest way to adjust at the pedal was to loosen the nut closest to the clutch master cylinder and then rotate the push rod using fat needle nose pliers. After adjusting the push rod towards the master (i.e., moving the clutch pedal upwards) about 4mm, I put the car back in the 1st with the clutch depressed. I noticed that the wheel spin was much slower than before which would imply that the clutch is disengaging more. @Vulcan Grey , looks like I have about 2mm of sloppy loose play at the top of the clutch throw.

I took it for a test drive and it feels like it is still engaging really close to the floor board. Also there isn't much pedal travel before it is fully engaged (feels like I'm popping the clutch into gear even though I'm not trying to). I only drove for about 5 min. and didn't notice any slipping and all gears seemed to shift fine. At this point, I believe it is driveable. Perhaps I need to give myself a little time to adjust to the new clutch feel.

The abutment screw was already at 11.5mm so there isn't much more room to change it to the max of 12.5mm. I'm going to adjust that next and hopefully that helps fix it all. After this, there isn't any more adjusting I can do since I'm at the limits.

On a side note... I changed the translator back around to factory defaults. Previous owner had moved the gearchange cables to the top of the translator in order to make it a shorter throw. But I didn't much care for how "tight" the shifter felt as a result. I then decided to see if I liked it better with the normal setup. The regular setup definitely glides a lot more smoothly between gears, but the throw is very long feeling. Probably a good thing for me since I was shifting too fast into 2nd gear and getting a slight grind.

Jim S.
1995 Esprit S4s
Seraph is offline  
post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 12:52 PM
Registered User
 
Vulcan Grey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 4,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
I noticed that the wheel spin was much slower than before which would imply that the clutch is disengaging more. @Vulcan Grey , looks like I have about 2mm of sloppy loose play at the top of the clutch throw.

I took it for a test drive and it feels like it is still engaging really close to the floor board. Also there isn't much pedal travel before it is fully engaged (feels like I'm popping the clutch into gear even though I'm not trying to). I only drove for about 5 min. and didn't notice any slipping and all gears seemed to shift fine. At this point, I believe it is driveable. Perhaps I need to give myself a little time to adjust to the new clutch feel.

The abutment screw was already at 11.5mm so there isn't much more room to change it to the max of 12.5mm. I'm going to adjust that next and hopefully that helps fix it all. After this, there isn't any more adjusting I can do since I'm at the limits.



Look at how the geometry of the abutment screw is working with the slave. If you adjust the screw toward the slave, that effectively increases the stroke, meaning you'll be able to get the clutch to release more... Yours is not releasing far enough.

Adjust the screw to 12.5mm and see how that does. ignore the book, that is the safer side of the spec anyways it means that the clutch will start slipping earlier as it wears, but in your case it is not releasing enough, so it needs to be adjusted.

A single mm is a lot to a clutch. Don't forget you had your clutch ground anyways, so that needs to be adjusted in that direction anyways.

forget about the pedal... or at least set it back to 4-5mm of free play. 2mm is not enough.

Travis
Vulcan Grey Esprit 89 SE

My Lotus Project Photo Collection
Vulcan Grey is offline  
post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 08-15-2015, 12:57 PM
Registered User
 
Vulcan Grey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 4,833
also. take a photo of your master and slave so we can see if they are the original ones or aftermarket ones. SOme of the after market ones might need a different rod length or adjustment.

Travis
Vulcan Grey Esprit 89 SE

My Lotus Project Photo Collection
Vulcan Grey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Lotus Esprit

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome