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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Forgotten Elan

Hey Guys. I was at my wheel/tire guy the other day and caught a glimpse of something interesting.


Upon closer inspection (climbing the fence) I found a lowish mile (under 50K) 91 turbo Elan.

From what I can see (I don't know Elans all that well yet) there is some damage on the front bumper, some Autozone fog lights and a cheap aftermarket stereo. The top needs some work, but the upholstery looks decent.. as does the paint under the oxidation/dust. The tags are from 2011, and I doubt its run since before that by the amount of rat evidence in the engine bay. It has "an exhaust" (crush bent muffler removal).





Im in the process of tracking down who owns it.

What do you think a car in this condition (ALOT of unknowns at this point) is worth? I know thats a loaded question... I just want to see if its the type of thing I could pick up cheap... put some elbow grease into, and sell for a profit, or keep as a low budget sports car.

I appreciate any and all input.

1998 Esprit V8.

Last edited by FSReric; 09-15-2013 at 02:39 PM. Reason: forgot engine pic
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 02:32 PM
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Sure looks interesting. I think you should buy it so we can watch ;-)

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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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HAHAHA... I am easily convinced to dive into a new project.

The problem is convincing the wife that having 2 90's Lotus projects is somehow a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Lckitty View Post
Sure looks interesting. I think you should buy it so we can watch ;-)

1998 Esprit V8.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 04:45 PM
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Possibly a $5K parts car. There are some odd things going on in the engine compartment. Decent ones go from $10K to $15K. Lotus Elan Central is the site for the M100.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 05:30 PM
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First order of business? Lose the duochey plate
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-15-2013, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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Haha. Yeah I hear ya. You can't see well in the pic... But the plate frame is uh... Rainbow.

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First order of business? Lose the duochey plate
What Wierd things happening in the engine bay? Like I said I don't know these cars well... Never even seen under te good on one until now. Any local SoCal guys wanna let me take a look at theirs?

1998 Esprit V8.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2013, 04:43 AM
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As a two time former Isuzu stylus (handling by Lotus ) owner, aside from an aftermarket alarm and a few related wires the engine looks pretty legit. I've always wanted one of these M100's

Just moved to Phoenix, anyone else here?
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-16-2013, 06:55 PM
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Why would someone leave a car behind like that? Windows open etc.? What a shame.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 11:32 AM
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I would be interested in what you find out about the car, and might even be interested in obtaining it (for the same reason you said - to fix it). I am an Elan lover and currently have a blue one. The Elan M100 is my favorite overall Lotus, and I've had a lot.

This car looks decent, I have to say. It is very sad to see it abandoned like that considering how very rare these are (even if it is *just* a red one). The exhaust is not stock as someone mentioned, but I don't see any evidence under the hood that it's non-stock. Everything there looks correct to my eye except that blue dangly wire thing. The body looks straight, the hood looks good, the damage on the bumper looks minor, and the interior looks fine except a few things on the dash near the climate control.

The more I talk the more interested I am. Let me know what you find out or if you have more Elan questions! However, as someone else mentioned, LotusElanCentral.com is where the M100 folks hang out, not on here.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah... I posted the same thread on lec... And have had overall the same response.

As I find out more I will update this thread.

It appears that the car has moved around that lot a bit and the "current" google satellite image has it about 20 yards from where it is now and with some sort of tarp or cover over the cab.

My buddy thinks he knows the owner who works in the building with him.

1998 Esprit V8.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FSReric View Post
Haha. Yeah I hear ya. You can't see well in the pic... But the plate frame is uh... Rainbow.



What Wierd things happening in the engine bay? Like I said I don't know these cars well... Never even seen under te good on one until now. Any local SoCal guys wanna let me take a look at theirs?
The accessories on the left side don't seem standard. The blue wire appearing from the right of the oil separator and the hose going into the top of the coolant reservoir. I'll try to get a picture of mine and post it.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 01:18 PM
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Ah yes, I didn't see that cylinder thingy on the left side and I didn't think that thing on the coolant header tank was a tube, but now that you point it out I think you're right. Good catch!
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-17-2013, 01:20 PM
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good candidate to build a FWD race car

"I really started paying attention to cars was when they came out with the Nissan Z, the first body. Then I seen the Cherokees, the old square ones, and I was like, “Wow, that’s cool.” Then I seen the Isuzu jeeps and I seen the Wranglers."
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 01:42 PM
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Lotus Elan Central?
I’ll rephrase “Nitroman” and turn his words against him. (Nitroman was a senior member and is still listed as a moderator of LEC, repeatedly bad mouthed the Isuzu car owners, set himself up as a retailer and group buy coordinator, collected up some $40,000+ in payments, disappeared with the money, and they froze all his sales threads).
As Nitroman would say:
“For a group of people who own Elan M100s, the members of Lotus Elan Central know surprisingly little about M100s, about how to maintain M100s, and how to modify M100s.”

And you got three (3) vague responses in that forum, confirming the validity of the above comment.

I’ll offer the following information on the topic. Not from the viewpoint of a Lotus purist who dismisses the Elan M100 as a best forgotten blasphemy. Not from the viewpoint of a fan-boy who wears rose colored glasses and never admits the car’s faults. But from the viewpoint of a person who knows the Elan M100, the mechanism, and the history, inside and out, and can fairly and flatly state the car model’s good _and_ bad points.

The M100 was designed intended to be Lotus’ entry level sporty car, and a logical step up from the Golf GTi. It was to be the first reliable Lotus that was expected to be used for daily transportation, driven every day in all weather conditions, and live for 200,000+ miles. While the M100 is the most reliable car that Lotus built to date, as years have passed, even extremely low mileage examples have proven too unreliable to be used as daily transportation. It is far below the level of reliability typical of other 1990’s cars, and far below the level of reliability of the Isuzu cousins that share the same power plant.
When GM acquired the company, Lotus had moved the project no farther than a two seat Corolla, after almost a decade of “work”. Lotus anxiously embraced their newly expanded parts-bin, selecting the Isuzu engine, which Spooner rated as superior to the both the 4AGE and Ecotec. GM forced Lotus to deal with the project via a design competition. GM’s F100 proposal was for the Elan was true to the original Elan shape and would share the R-Body platform with the Geo Storm and Isuzu cars. Storm would be a four seat, FWD Non-turbo, the entry level Chevy, a stepping stone to Camaro and Corvette. Isuzu would have the four seat AWD Turbo variant. Lotus would have the 2 seat FWD Turbo variant. Each with unique styling and Lotus would have input on design, with significant appearance, equipment, and tuning changes to differentiate their own variant from the others.
Lotus, to their own determent, rejected this offer. Their in house M100 design certainly makes a striking statement in its appearance, and the suspension layout is revolutionary for a FWD car, but the overall execution is substandard. Cobbling together odd GM exterior and interior pieces for the sake of styling, Lotus dove into the GM parts-bin, selecting the rarest, least durable, and least dependable pieces. Lotus’ own plastic trim and filler panels between the parts-bin pieces are of such low quality that they are currently turning to dust. Exterior lamps borrowed from McLaren, (if in working order), are worth more when removed from the car, than the insurable value of the car as a whole. Unique pieces made of steel, such as the backbone frame and suspension arms, lacked anything approaching adequate rust or corrosion protection, and most currently have severe rust damage. The brakes were weak for 1990’s standards, and most cars will not currently pass MOT brake force tests without upgrade. The wheel bearing design is a mess, a 1960’s design up front, and the rear disc and hub are incorporated into one piece making it unserviceable. Lotus may have tested in Death Valley, but they used a radiator that is 27% smaller than Isuzu used with the “same” engine. The Lotus radiator will only support 117 HP, and the cars overheat when driven in traffic. Elan owners are quick to point out that Lotus did their own engine “development” (which actually amounted to only ECU programming and support pieces such as the radiator), and that this “development” yielded 162 HP compared to the US Spec Isuzu Impulse Turbo’s 160 HP. But they never mention (or are completely unaware) that the Japanese spec Isuzu Gemini Turbo factory rating for the same engine model is 178 HP. Lotus rejected the F100 and shared R-Body platform, and ordered all 5,500 of their engines in 1987, based on the 1st Generation specification. By 1990, when Isuzu put the same model number engine in their own cars, they had developed the engine into a 2nd Generation, with larger bearings, larger water pump, larger oil pump, new camshaft profiles, solid valve lifters, redesigned intake manifold, larger and redesigned throttle body with built in IAC valve and better TPS, streamlined engine control system, revised turbo housing, and factory installed blow off valve. The Elan lacked any of these engine upgrades.

The Elan M100 well deserves the title of best handling FWD car, but only when comparing factory original cars to other factory original cars. With any level of preparation for track use, the Elan quickly sinks from the field. The suspension is too soft and body roll to excessive, because the car was built for comfortable ride. This is _not_, by any stretch of the imagination, a FWD Elise. The knowledge base among the owners, and their favored UK Lotus specialists, is so shallow when it comes to the Isuzu engine, and dealing with the FWD layout, that they can not build a competitive, or even competent, track car. The UK “upgrade racing radiators” match the same dimensions and cooling capacity of the factory Isuzu radiators, and support 160 HP dependably, 178 HP with overheating issues. The UK brake upgrades improve pedal feel, but utilize smaller-than-original brake pads, and still struggle to pass MOT testing. For many years, the UK shops claimed that the properly sized 2 ½ inch exhaust was too big and “caused” boost creep, ignoring that this was not a problem with the Isuzu cars using the 2nd Generation engines, which use better engine control and second generation turbo housing. The UK shops continue to promote chip tuning, which was discredited more than ten years ago.
Meanwhile, the non-UK Isuzu experts, who are summarily rejected by the Elan owners, are building race cars out of the Isuzu cousin cars that run rings around the Elan and rival the track performance of the Elise:
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/1652960-post26.html

The LEC seems more preoccupied with locating things like replacement door handles, pillar caps, and lamp covers, than anything else. The phobia induced by the rust issue has brought about a brisk market for stainless steel anything (headlight springs, suspension arms, etc.). A majority of the owners seem to believe that they bought a convertible Honda Civic, and because it has a Japanese made engine, therefore fart-can exhausts and neon color door panel/seat trim inserts should be plentiful and cheap, from the market of the Isuzu made cousins. They fail to realize that Lotus’ rejection of the F100 and shared R-Body platform eliminated compatibility outside the engine and that the aftermarket for Isuzu is narrow. The major Isuzu tuner is focused on race car prep, which is significantly more expensive than street performance or styling, and far removed from fart-can exhausts, neon trim panel inserts, and stainless steel headlight springs.

This leaves an owners group ripe for rip-off artists such as Nitroman, and Bob Brown. (Bob Brown is the previous title holder for largest LEC thief, a retail and group-buy con artist who stole only $20,000+ before disappearing). Promise the sky for pennies on the dollar, and the LEC members line up to be fleeced.

As far as purchasing an Elan for actual use, for the sake of reliability and performance, the best approach would be:
Pull the engine and replace it with a 2nd Generation engine. Convert over to the Isuzu engine control system.
Systematically remove all of the UK and GM Europe content and replace it with more reliable Japanese components, or more readily available aftermarket racing components.
Plan on spending tens of thousands of dollars custom building nearly everything, because there is nothing of acceptable quality or specification from the UK specialists.
Count on having no technical knowledge base to draw from, because, to date, there has not been a properly built modified Elan that either lived up to its potential or could keep pace with a properly modified example of its Isuzu cousins.

That particular car would be a good candidate for that approach, if priced relative to its apparent condition. The exterior body appears all there mostly in one piece. Obtain a Geo Storm donor car for the body electricals, interior, instrumentation, controls, etc. And, of course, the 2nd Generation engine block, crank, head, intake manifold, and throttle body. Convert the engine over to turbo spec. Custom build an engine control system, cooling system, brake system, and suspension. A small fortune later and you will have a car that will seriously embarrass the Elise, while remaining streetable enough to be driven to and from the track, instead of being trailered like the Elise.

On a side note: Those of us looking for M100 related content on this forum, could find it much more easily if the signature tags were excluded from the search parameters. Currently, every search for “Isuzu” returns 9 posts with the “Swizz Beatz ‘Isuzu Jeeps’” quote signature, for every one post containing actual M100-Isuzu related content.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-09-2013, 07:21 PM
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Manic,

Thanks for the "inside" perspective. The engine info is new to me as I quickly determined that my M100 was a bad choice for a track day car but mostly a fun to drive street car so didn't mod it. Absolutely agree on the worst possible selections from the GM parts bin. Made similar points to Chapman himself in 1971 or 72 regarding donor parts on the original Elan -- he did not take it well.

I think the Brits have it figured out finally, but for many years their cooling packages seemed to show no understanding of the mass of copper (aluminum now) needed to handle engine needs and how to arrange that (fin density, active area, etc.) -- not to mention climatic conditions outside the UK. "Exterior lamps borrowed from McLaren" -- very interesting tidbit as I recall being told they were from a Renault Alpine.

Time to sign-off as I need to get back to planning suspension bushing replacement, arm repair/refurbishment, engine mount replacement and a brake solution for the M100 this Winter so I can drive it another 20 years. Oh yeah, add wheel bearings to that list.

Bob L

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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-11-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_Mechanic View Post
Lotus Elan Central?
I’ll rephrase “Nitroman” and turn his words against him. (Nitroman was a senior member and is still listed as a moderator of LEC, repeatedly bad mouthed the Isuzu car owners, set himself up as a retailer and group buy coordinator, collected up some $40,000+ in payments, disappeared with the money, and they froze all his sales threads).
As Nitroman would say:
“For a group of people who own Elan M100s, the members of Lotus Elan Central know surprisingly little about M100s, about how to maintain M100s, and how to modify M100s.”

And you got three (3) vague responses in that forum, confirming the validity of the above comment.

I’ll offer the following information on the topic. Not from the viewpoint of a Lotus purist who dismisses the Elan M100 as a best forgotten blasphemy. Not from the viewpoint of a fan-boy who wears rose colored glasses and never admits the car’s faults. But from the viewpoint of a person who knows the Elan M100, the mechanism, and the history, inside and out, and can fairly and flatly state the car model’s good _and_ bad points.

The M100 was designed intended to be Lotus’ entry level sporty car, and a logical step up from the Golf GTi. It was to be the first reliable Lotus that was expected to be used for daily transportation, driven every day in all weather conditions, and live for 200,000+ miles. While the M100 is the most reliable car that Lotus built to date, as years have passed, even extremely low mileage examples have proven too unreliable to be used as daily transportation. It is far below the level of reliability typical of other 1990’s cars, and far below the level of reliability of the Isuzu cousins that share the same power plant.
When GM acquired the company, Lotus had moved the project no farther than a two seat Corolla, after almost a decade of “work”. Lotus anxiously embraced their newly expanded parts-bin, selecting the Isuzu engine, which Spooner rated as superior to the both the 4AGE and Ecotec. GM forced Lotus to deal with the project via a design competition. GM’s F100 proposal was for the Elan was true to the original Elan shape and would share the R-Body platform with the Geo Storm and Isuzu cars. Storm would be a four seat, FWD Non-turbo, the entry level Chevy, a stepping stone to Camaro and Corvette. Isuzu would have the four seat AWD Turbo variant. Lotus would have the 2 seat FWD Turbo variant. Each with unique styling and Lotus would have input on design, with significant appearance, equipment, and tuning changes to differentiate their own variant from the others.
Lotus, to their own determent, rejected this offer. Their in house M100 design certainly makes a striking statement in its appearance, and the suspension layout is revolutionary for a FWD car, but the overall execution is substandard. Cobbling together odd GM exterior and interior pieces for the sake of styling, Lotus dove into the GM parts-bin, selecting the rarest, least durable, and least dependable pieces. Lotus’ own plastic trim and filler panels between the parts-bin pieces are of such low quality that they are currently turning to dust. Exterior lamps borrowed from McLaren, (if in working order), are worth more when removed from the car, than the insurable value of the car as a whole. Unique pieces made of steel, such as the backbone frame and suspension arms, lacked anything approaching adequate rust or corrosion protection, and most currently have severe rust damage. The brakes were weak for 1990’s standards, and most cars will not currently pass MOT brake force tests without upgrade. The wheel bearing design is a mess, a 1960’s design up front, and the rear disc and hub are incorporated into one piece making it unserviceable. Lotus may have tested in Death Valley, but they used a radiator that is 27% smaller than Isuzu used with the “same” engine. The Lotus radiator will only support 117 HP, and the cars overheat when driven in traffic. Elan owners are quick to point out that Lotus did their own engine “development” (which actually amounted to only ECU programming and support pieces such as the radiator), and that this “development” yielded 162 HP compared to the US Spec Isuzu Impulse Turbo’s 160 HP. But they never mention (or are completely unaware) that the Japanese spec Isuzu Gemini Turbo factory rating for the same engine model is 178 HP. Lotus rejected the F100 and shared R-Body platform, and ordered all 5,500 of their engines in 1987, based on the 1st Generation specification. By 1990, when Isuzu put the same model number engine in their own cars, they had developed the engine into a 2nd Generation, with larger bearings, larger water pump, larger oil pump, new camshaft profiles, solid valve lifters, redesigned intake manifold, larger and redesigned throttle body with built in IAC valve and better TPS, streamlined engine control system, revised turbo housing, and factory installed blow off valve. The Elan lacked any of these engine upgrades.

The Elan M100 well deserves the title of best handling FWD car, but only when comparing factory original cars to other factory original cars. With any level of preparation for track use, the Elan quickly sinks from the field. The suspension is too soft and body roll to excessive, because the car was built for comfortable ride. This is _not_, by any stretch of the imagination, a FWD Elise. The knowledge base among the owners, and their favored UK Lotus specialists, is so shallow when it comes to the Isuzu engine, and dealing with the FWD layout, that they can not build a competitive, or even competent, track car. The UK “upgrade racing radiators” match the same dimensions and cooling capacity of the factory Isuzu radiators, and support 160 HP dependably, 178 HP with overheating issues. The UK brake upgrades improve pedal feel, but utilize smaller-than-original brake pads, and still struggle to pass MOT testing. For many years, the UK shops claimed that the properly sized 2 ½ inch exhaust was too big and “caused” boost creep, ignoring that this was not a problem with the Isuzu cars using the 2nd Generation engines, which use better engine control and second generation turbo housing. The UK shops continue to promote chip tuning, which was discredited more than ten years ago.
Meanwhile, the non-UK Isuzu experts, who are summarily rejected by the Elan owners, are building race cars out of the Isuzu cousin cars that run rings around the Elan and rival the track performance of the Elise:
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/1652960-post26.html

The LEC seems more preoccupied with locating things like replacement door handles, pillar caps, and lamp covers, than anything else. The phobia induced by the rust issue has brought about a brisk market for stainless steel anything (headlight springs, suspension arms, etc.). A majority of the owners seem to believe that they bought a convertible Honda Civic, and because it has a Japanese made engine, therefore fart-can exhausts and neon color door panel/seat trim inserts should be plentiful and cheap, from the market of the Isuzu made cousins. They fail to realize that Lotus’ rejection of the F100 and shared R-Body platform eliminated compatibility outside the engine and that the aftermarket for Isuzu is narrow. The major Isuzu tuner is focused on race car prep, which is significantly more expensive than street performance or styling, and far removed from fart-can exhausts, neon trim panel inserts, and stainless steel headlight springs.

This leaves an owners group ripe for rip-off artists such as Nitroman, and Bob Brown. (Bob Brown is the previous title holder for largest LEC thief, a retail and group-buy con artist who stole only $20,000+ before disappearing). Promise the sky for pennies on the dollar, and the LEC members line up to be fleeced.

As far as purchasing an Elan for actual use, for the sake of reliability and performance, the best approach would be:
Pull the engine and replace it with a 2nd Generation engine. Convert over to the Isuzu engine control system.
Systematically remove all of the UK and GM Europe content and replace it with more reliable Japanese components, or more readily available aftermarket racing components.
Plan on spending tens of thousands of dollars custom building nearly everything, because there is nothing of acceptable quality or specification from the UK specialists.
Count on having no technical knowledge base to draw from, because, to date, there has not been a properly built modified Elan that either lived up to its potential or could keep pace with a properly modified example of its Isuzu cousins.

That particular car would be a good candidate for that approach, if priced relative to its apparent condition. The exterior body appears all there mostly in one piece. Obtain a Geo Storm donor car for the body electricals, interior, instrumentation, controls, etc. And, of course, the 2nd Generation engine block, crank, head, intake manifold, and throttle body. Convert the engine over to turbo spec. Custom build an engine control system, cooling system, brake system, and suspension. A small fortune later and you will have a car that will seriously embarrass the Elise, while remaining streetable enough to be driven to and from the track, instead of being trailered like the Elise.

On a side note: Those of us looking for M100 related content on this forum, could find it much more easily if the signature tags were excluded from the search parameters. Currently, every search for “Isuzu” returns 9 posts with the “Swizz Beatz ‘Isuzu Jeeps’” quote signature, for every one post containing actual M100-Isuzu related content.
Dude - you are deep. Nice post.

Lotus Elise #134 - S O L D BOE REV400 street car built at BOE in KC. , Stock motor, low boost w/stock cat/mani, 292whp, (5.95 lbs/hp) passes all 50 states emissions/OBD, BOE ST exhaust, ACT HDSS, BOE Clam Hinge, BOE Oil Cooler Relocation, BOE Surge Tank/750cc injectors, BOE Race Links, MWR Rear Lift Kit etc. 0-100 = you bet!
Build thread :
https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f160...seline-114302/
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-17-2013, 02:27 PM
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Sorry but I must disagree with Manic_Mechanic on many of his points. I will ignore his car and LEC history as well as his accusations of malfeasance to concentrate on the car.

I used my M100 for a daily driver for 2 years with zero issues (1998 - 2000). It does require more maintenance than a normal car but significantly less than an Esprit of similar vintage. Since 1998 I put about 75,000 miles on ours the latest big drive being cross country VA - WA - CA & back in 2009. Our car has 108,000 miles. It, as well as all the Federal cars, is now 22 years old.

I haven't seen a rusted out M100 in the USA although I have seen many pictures of the English cars looking very bad.

The front wheel bearings have been replaced once. The rear twice.

Brakes are marginal for a sports car. I haven't done any of the large brake upgrades. I tend to use very high end pads and fluid. I change them often. I only tracked the car once (the Glen) and haven't auto-x much.

Our car handled trips through Death Valley without any issues except that the A/C couldn't cool the car sufficiently. I haven't heard of any cooling issues.

Real issues with these cars are: A/C, CV joints, CAS, window lifts, headlight lifts, wear on tops at pinch points, deteriorating weather stripping and coil packs. Finding a mechanic who knows these cars is difficult. It is tough to work on them as they are tightly packed. Some parts are getting tough to find.

Squids screw up these cars with: lack of maintenance, storing them outside, wheel tire combinations that don't fit, too much boost, butt ugly customization and hack mechanics.

They are excellent sports & GT cars for 1991. If someone wants a limited production (550 Federal cars) recent vintage specialty sports car they are great. Consider them in the same light as a 1991 Porsche 911 but without the huge after market of experience and parts.

I definitely agree with Manic_Mechanic that it is not the car to choose if you want to do extensive modifications. For that I would choose a car that I could "catalog engineer".

Our Seven is more fun to drive because it is so elemental. Our 1967 Elan is about half way between the Seven and the M100 for comfort and fun. I'm a fan but far from a fan boy of the M100.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 10-17-2013, 03:59 PM
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I had an Elan with the Wilwood BBK to fix the braking, 2.5" exhaust, pre-cat pipe, MBC, and intake. Virtually trouble free in 2003-2006 when I had it. I never ran into the CAS issue.

Car did not run hot at all in Georgia, where that would show if a real problem.

You absolutely need the BBK. I tried upgrading the pads to EBC first with little improvement. Car needs more rotor in front. Used to slide through intersections like the brakes had been "buttered" when stock.

Finally sold to go Elise. Price has been stable if still at $15k.

Good car. Ran rings around the 10 year newer BMW Z3 I had before it.
Better handling and comfort at the same time.
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